RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose?

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ivone57 -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 2:57:58 PM)
without reading all the replies but answering the question... punishment is meant to correct bad behavior ..... now if your talking about funishment thats a totally different thing...

areallivehuman -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 3:35:05 PM)
Gauge, sorry about your head and all, I have obviously miscommunicated. I would expect my submissive to follow my lead, because, we know each other well, she knows my likes, my traits; matters of import have all been discussed long ago. If she were called on to make a decision in my stead, I have every confidence she would ask herself "what would he want me to do?". And know the answer. I'm not saying this all happens without communication, quite the opposite. But not all communication is verbal, and setting an example is another way of communicating. To keep to the subject of this thread, I don't do punishment. I have never had to. I like to tie her up and whip her for the pure fun of it, plus it makes my dick hard. If there ever was an action severe enough, I am sure my anger would be punishment enough. " Is it not the responsibility of the dominant to build up and encourage their submissive? Should it not be a rare thing that punishment finally has to be resorted to? Communication is vital to allow the submissive to flourish in their service, is it not? Am I not understanding something here?" I agree with this wholeheartedly , especially the part where you're not understanding. That is probably my fault to some degree.

leonine -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 4:01:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ivone57 without reading all the replies but answering the question... punishment is meant to correct bad behavior Not only. I've known service oriented slaves where the chief value of punishment was closure, so they could stop agonising over having got something wrong.

Dyfrynt -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 4:03:48 PM)
The actual purpose of punishment? It is a reconnecting of the D/s dynamic. Punishment need not be physical. And maybe discipline is the better word here. But the process is still the same. How can a submissive feel submissive if they can break the rules without consequence. More importantly what will a submissive feel if they break the rules and the Dominant does not correct it. In many cases, the submissive can start to think that the Dominant is losing interest in her. If he cared he would correct the inappropriate behavior. The D/s relationship is so symbiotic in so many ways. It takes a Dominant that is willing to dominate and a submissive willing to submit to work at its best. Many relationships die because one or the other, or both partners decide they no longer have to work so hard at the relationship. And as we all know it is true of vanilla relationships too.

Kana -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 4:26:15 PM)
I don't even like the word punishment. It carries negative connotations that I feel detract from the point of the, ahem, exercise. I much prefer behavioral modification and use it as such. There's an old baseball thing about physical errors being part of the game, everyone makes em and they are gonna happen. Players rarely get consequences for them. Mental errors though, they're a whole different ballgame. Make those and some shits gonna come down, whether it's a look across the locker-room, a comment from a player, perhaps a fine. Whatever. I kinda run along the same line. Accidents happen, I understand that. Sometimes things happen that are for legitimate reasons out of her control. That's just fricken life. I don't lay out consequences for that. But negligence, or worse, and very very,as in once a decade, rare, willful disobedience? Yeah, that's gonna get a reaction from me. As will mule headed stubbornness. Garggh, that leaves me gnashing me teeth. But really, there's a whole line of consequences that can be used before anything physical occurs. Shit-I literally can't remember the last time I had to do that (Good slaves are like that). These range from a raised eyebrow to a snide remark. If things are getting out of line (Sometimes she rides the edge of the sassiness I condone) I just call it point blank,let her know she may wanna rethink her path. But the worst consequence I know of, and I've said this for ages and it's as true today as it was the first time I used it, is simply to look her in the eyes and say, very calmly, "I'm so disappointed in you right now words fail me.I don't know what to say.So you just go and think about what you've done while I process what just happened." Yeah, I'll promise you this if she's a real slave, what she does to herself after I say that will be 1,000 billion trillion times worse than anything I can think of. And I've left her spinning in the wind, stabbing herself with her own knives. If you really wanna be cruel, finish by saying something like, "I'm so crushed I can't even come up with a consequence for an error this vast. You have X days to come up with one and it better fit the dirty deed." Yeah, that shits lots and lots of fun.Almost worth the emotional trauma involved in getting there. (Note that there is a small, minute, teensy eensy, iota of a speck of a microscopic infinitesimal chance that I am perhaps seeing this only from a dominant perspective and that someone on the other side of the kneel may have drastically different feelings as to whether this could actually be labeled "fun")

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 5:42:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana (Note that there is a small, minute, teensy eensy, iota of a speck of a microscopic infinitesimal chance that I am perhaps seeing this only from a dominant perspective and that someone on the other side of the kneel may have drastically different feelings as to whether this could actually be labeled "fun") I'm totally agreeing with the fine print. Perhaps, again, something in common. [:D] However, for all of the punishment threads and all the angles from which the topic has been discussed, aside from punishments that I have given out, you're probably the only person who has given a punishment that I remember. I don't remember the infraction (or even if it was mentioned here). I do remember the consequence because I learned from it. You took her books away for five days. One of the most effective "punishments" that has ever crossed these boards.

Kana -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 6:28:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: Kana (Note that there is a small, minute, teensy eensy, iota of a speck of a microscopic infinitesimal chance that I am perhaps seeing this only from a dominant perspective and that someone on the other side of the kneel may have drastically different feelings as to whether this could actually be labeled "fun") I'm totally agreeing with the fine print. Perhaps, again, something in common. [:D] However, for all of the punishment threads and all the angles from which the topic has been discussed, aside from punishments that I have given out, you're probably the only person who has given a punishment that I remember. I don't remember the infraction (or even if it was mentioned here). I do remember the consequence because I learned from it. You took her books away for five days. One of the most effective "punishments" that has ever crossed these boards. I'd love to take credit for this but you have the wrong guy. Taking her books away wouldn't hurt her. Now,electronically unhooking her would leave her helpless. That said,lest you think me a big softie,let's not forget that when I punish I go for the jugular-I take her coffee [:)]

NuevaVida -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 6:33:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana That said,lest you think me a big softie,let's not forget that when I punish I go for the jugular-I take her coffee [:)] That would kill me, in so many ways. And he'd hate to be around me, too, because I'm a grumpy, neurotic mess without my coffee. [&:] The book thing may have been with Bita. Not sure, though.

littlewonder -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 6:41:09 PM)
Oh yeah...unhook me and I'm helpless. I pay my bills online, I work online, I do my school work online, I do absolutely everything online. Without it I'd be completely lost. Everything is on my computer! <then again, I have a smartphone with all of my work on it too. sssshhhhhh....don't tell him. [:D]> And yeah....taking my coffee away kills me! It's not as bad as what it used to be though. Since I got the stomach problems I have now I can't really drink coffee without feeling ill so I've pretty much cut out most coffee except a cup or two first thing in the morning to wake up. Without that, I'd be in tears from the headache and not being able to think straight, especially at work. Thankfully he's had no reason to pull it yet. Whew!

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 7:03:07 PM)
I think I may have been incorrect. It may very well have been Bita. I know that it was a great demonstration of knowing the slave one was dealing with. That's why it had an impact. Hmmm. Now that I have heard this, I'll have to ask for permission to buy her a special coffee when I come to town.

DOM68005 -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 7:07:25 PM)
I have a problem with the very word punishment. As a child, I was raised to understand punishment was to instill the concept that something I did was not to happen again. I would like to keep it that way in my own mind. Problem: The very word has been changed by our culture to mean something desired by too many subs and slaves. Just read the profiles to verify the thought. Too many crave to be punished nor misuse the very word as a desired activity of BDSM. My longest term sub was much that way. She would intentional do something to be punished because she enjoyed the spanking/flogging, etc. I soon learned the best most effective punishment was to do nothing and separate us for a period of time. I have since had that verbally verified by other subs. One time, I added to a shaved sub's punishment that she may not shave until I gave her permission to. That seemed to be a good reminder for that week that she had displeased me. After having been bare so long, the end of the hairs curling pricked her skin causing it to itch. She was begging within a few days and very well behaved the week after I allowed her to shave.

Winterapple -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/18/2013 7:46:43 PM)
For me punishment is about absolution and atonement. It's an entirely different thing than discipline which for me is more about behavior modification.

NoBimbosAllowed -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/19/2013 3:44:02 AM)
the ultimate purpose is... weed out poseurs from the Minaj bootays that can "take it". show if you're proficient with wooden cooking implements. find out it you have a picture of a non Nilla relationship versus an active working model of one. It's purpose is to be the red pepper hot sauce on the enchilada of the oinky-boinky. It's the literal hot sauce in the tight place (yeah, subby piggily wiggilies, hot sauce raining down into the Khyber Pass!)

kalikshama -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/19/2013 10:34:38 AM)
quote: But the worst consequence I know of, and I've said this for ages and it's as true today as it was the first time I used it, is simply to look her in the eyes and say, very calmly, "I'm so disappointed in you right now words fail me.I don't know what to say.So you just go and think about what you've done while I process what just happened." Yeah, I'll promise you this if she's a real slave, what she does to herself after I say that will be 1,000 billion trillion times worse than anything I can think of. And I've left her spinning in the wind, stabbing herself with her own knives. If you really wanna be cruel, finish by saying something like, "I'm so crushed I can't even come up with a consequence for an error this vast. You have X days to come up with one and it better fit the dirty deed." Oh, yes, this would devastate me...and I'm not even a slave! quote: Yeah, that shits lots and lots of fun.Almost worth the emotional trauma involved in getting there. (Note that there is a small, minute, teensy eensy, iota of a speck of a microscopic infinitesimal chance that I am perhaps seeing this only from a dominant perspective and that someone on the other side of the kneel may have drastically different feelings as to whether this could actually be labeled "fun") Not fun! Not fun! Not fun! Not fun! Not fun! Not fun!

Kana -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/19/2013 1:34:44 PM)
quote: For me punishment is about absolution and atonement. It's an entirely different thing than discipline which for me is more about behavior modification. Eaxctamuno.

heartcream -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/19/2013 7:20:35 PM)
Punishment is uncool in my books. I am not into it, do not want it, do not support it and think it is bollocks. I move away from it in my thinking and for sure in my life. I am not interested in punishment at all.

JeffBC -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/20/2013 7:46:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge ...What we do is a relationship that requires some very in-depth communication, in fact, some communication on a level that vanilla relationships may never understand. This is not relevant to your main point but... uh... cough bullshit cough quote: Is it not the responsibility of the dominant to build up and encourage their submissive? Huh? Dude, you have reduced an entire human being down to exactly one attribute so no. It is his responsibility to dominate. If that's what he is is a "dominant" then his only responsibility is to dominate by hook or by crook. quote: Should it not be a rare thing that punishment finally has to be resorted to? Says who? In a scientific sense there are both positive and negative aspects to punishing people. That, however, is a broad statement. Individuals do not act in accordance with "the norms" very much LOL. So what if you happen to have a submissive who thrives on the negative reinforcement for whatever reason? quote: Or is there something that I am not grasping? In my opinion the thing you are not grasping is that humans are different one from another. I don't punish at all. It's a one-strike-and-your-out policy here. And honestly, I have precious little patience for resistance even when it's happening in the context of obedience. For me though, it plays out differently. As a leader I'm going somewhere. Carol can get in the boat and row or not as she sees fit. But troublemakers get tossed over the side because my mission/destination is not about her. I don't need her to get there. If she wants to go to some different destination my first thought is, "Have fun." I know another couple where punishment is regularly and savagely delivered for what, to me, seem minor infractions. It works for them. I do not need to understand it. I just need to get the sense of it "working" and I'm content. And, in fact, I DO get pieces of it. There's elements of strict control (sort of). There's elements of SM. There's elements of extremeness in both personalities that play into it. But in the end, it works for them and every time I see either of them write it's clear, coherent, poised, and more or less happy. Your rules simply do not fit their actual reality. edited to add: When I talk about cutting Carol loose that does not mean "from the marriage". That would be inconceivably stupid of me. It means "as loose from the dynamic as I can manage" or else it might mean "loose from a specific project" -- as just happened yesterday. By the way, she feels "punished" over it. I just feel like I threw some dead weight overboard and things will progress more smoothly today.

AaNiMaLl -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/21/2013 9:06:31 PM)
What you did was not strictly behavioural punishment. Not like direct conditioning. There was a purpose to what you did. It trained her and you didn't just glance it off lightly, when you talked about it afterwards. That is important because that sort of thing in the closet is stronger than what you realise I think. Just try it. Lock yourself in a dark closet without stimulation and see what happens to you. I can empathise with it because this is what the police use in the cells. You start looking for stimulation. So when you let her out of the closet any stimulation is good to fill the void. Rather than punishment, this is a good example of Negative Reinforcement. You removed stimuli in order to shape behaviour. This is good thing. So intuitively, you knew the right way to go about things. I just think that you should have realised this from the start and begun with a reinforcement approach rather than punishment. That is me persoanally. Behaviourism doesn't look at mental processes only things that are external. Antecedent plus behaviour equals response through trial and error. Something like that. Such a simplistic ineffective way of doing things.

catize -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/22/2013 12:04:46 AM)
As someone else has mentioned on this thread, I don't need to understand a punishment dynamic, but it is really difficult for me to be objective. The issue of punishment is a hot-button topic for me, so I had to take some slow, deep breaths before I felt able to write this. Although my opinion on this topic is strong, it is just that; ~my~ opinion. As a given, no one is perfect, so I cannot grasp the concept that to disappoint my dominant should be devastating to my psyche. I am quite capable of recognizing my fuck-ups, apologizing and then either deciding on a course of action to rectify my mistake or ask for a discussion on how to do better in future. I cannot grasp the idea that punishment is required for 'absolution' or 'atonement'. A sincere apology and a determination to fix it is enough 'atonement' for me. Yeah, I do grasp the concept of consequences for my behavior and actions, (either good or bad) As an adult, I am (rightly) expected to obey the rules. And as a responsible adult, I do my very best to follow those and to be pleasing to my dominant; otherwise, what would be the point of my chosen path of submission? I don't necessarily totally agree with the OP that it is the dominants responsibility alone to 'build up' their submissive. I believe it is a mutual responsibility for both dominant and submissive to build up and encourage each other for the sake of the relationship. The OP's example of how he punished the blabber mouth was, to my way of thinking, too complex. I wonder why the deep discussion didn't come first, and why the drama of duct tape and locked in a closet had to be done at all? In another thread, (Punishing Master?) several dominants stated that when they make mistakes they face up to them. As a submissive, I am able to do the same; and I believe most mentally healthy submissives are as well. So, to answer the title question of this thread, I believe the ultimate purpose of a punishment dynamic is to relegate the submissive to a child-like role, acting as if he/she has a diminished capacity to recognize and correct their own mistakes.....and that concept annoys the hell out of me! Whether corporal, or losing privileges (eye roll) or time out (double eye roll) punishment tells me I am incapable of fixing what is wrong.. Such a dynamic may be detrimental in that it becomes a crutch; .to let the dominant fix me, rather than fixing myself. See bolded part above.

Winterapple -> RE: Punishment: What is it's ultimate purpose? (9/22/2013 2:48:16 AM)
FR I knew I would regret contributing to this thread. I really should stick to the kitten threads. There was a time when I had no interest in having punishment in a relationship. I thought the idea of one adult punishing another was ridiculous. I thought it was just an excuse for funishment . I thought it was a way of setting up the submissive to fail. And I think in some dynamics all those things are present. Punishment doesn't take the place of two adults discussing something rationally and finding a solution. Punishment for me is not a result of making a mistake or failing at something. I have only been punished once and it's purpose was absolution and atonement. Not just for him but for me and the relationship. What I did was a deliberate act of malice on my part. I confessed it to him. He was never really angry with me, somewhat disappointed but not angry. My apologizing was enough for him. But it wasn't enough for me. I was filled with guilt, remorse and shame and could not get past it. I was disappointed in myself far more than he was disappointed in me. I was going to leave the relationship. I'm not going to detail the punishment here but it wasn't one of the generic ones that you find in the handbook. I wasn't sent to the corner, spanked or denied Internet access. He said before and afterward that this meant what happened was over and for me to let go of it. And slowly I was able to. But I needed to pay the penance for what I did. That's just me. Somewhere in my soul resides a medieval nun. I'm an adult with the mental capacity of an adult. I don't roleplay as a child, nor am I treated like one. I think I'm generally speaking mentally healthy and emotionally stable. I can only ponder why this topic is something to get hot under the collar about. If some past trauma is at the root of someone's emotions on the subject they have my sympathy. I respect that others have different views on the subject. I can only hope that respect is returned.

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