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RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:29:44 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe you are dodging the point my friend...While you are talking about armed civilians stopping gun crime I am talking about no guns no crime of that sort. You tried to point to a beheading as proof that guns in civilians hands stopped that type of crime in America...And I was pointing out that the free arming of civilians was the source of crime that is not prevalent in the UK and was showing a valid comparison.

Butch

No both you and Politesub are dodging my point I was originally responding to the absurd claim that a properly enforced gun ban would put an end to ALL crime.
Keep in mind that our murder rate without guns exceeds the total murder rate of many countries.
Also nothing short of a police state would have a chance of stopping ALL crime.
Blair's daughter was held up at gunpoint in downtown London so even if the claim that a gun ban would end gun crime is bogus.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:31:35 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
First, he said it would put an end to crime.
Second, ask Tony Blair's daughter about how safe the streets of London are.
Been a long time since we had a beheading in the middle of a busy street in the U S.

quote:

I was originally responding to the absurd claim that a properly enforced gun ban would put an end to ALL crime.


Here is what he said and it is not what you said he said.

quote:

You're absolutely right, a gun ban will not stop gun crime.

An enforced and policed gun ban, certainly would - Because there would be no guns. That one's not very complicated.


Do you see the difference and agree that it is significant?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/20/2013 12:33:34 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:33:39 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

And the criminal element in this country that likes to use guns are just going to walk in and turn their guns in and swear an oath never to use another gun in the commission of a crime


Not at all...but tell me...where are most of the gun deaths in America... are they deaths when a bank is robbed?...no...are they gangbangers killing unarmed white suburbanites...no... the majority of deaths are from dumb assed people that don't pay attention to gun safety and kill their kids or others kids or from the mentally ill that get guns often legally.

Be truthful...how many children are killed in the UK by guns?....How many bank customers are killed in the UK? ...For that matter how many gangbangers are killing each other with guns in the UK?

But again I am not arguing that we should be like the UK but all these dumb arguments about how guns are protecting America is just crap. We need better laws than we have and denying that is irresponsible.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/20/2013 12:37:12 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:34:41 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe you are dodging the point my friend...While you are talking about armed civilians stopping gun crime I am talking about no guns no crime of that sort. You tried to point to a beheading as proof that guns in civilians hands stopped that type of crime in America...And I was pointing out that the free arming of civilians was the source of crime that is not prevalent in the UK and was showing a valid comparison.

Butch

No both you and Politesub are dodging my point I was originally responding to the absurd claim that a properly enforced gun ban would put an end to ALL crime.
Keep in mind that our murder rate without guns exceeds the total murder rate of many countries.
Also nothing short of a police state would have a chance of stopping ALL crime.
Blair's daughter was held up at gunpoint in downtown London so even if the claim that a gun ban would end gun crime is bogus.


That is a blatant lie.......... here is the post of yours I said was total bollocks. Note there was no mention in YOUR post about ending gun crime but there was about banning guns ending in a police state.

And it would only mean living in a police state. << There you go, your words, exactly as written. FFS I am losing the will to live.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:34:52 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		FR:
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to suggest that a local ban (not even state level) not working proves that a Federal ban wouldn't work?
The Chicago case is admittedly terrible, but it isn't proof that a nationwide gun ban would be equally as ineffective.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:44:09 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You see it is not how many crimes are committed with guns that counts... It is how many crimes are prevented by guns opposed to how many accidental children's deaths... This is the real statistic that is important.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:44:55 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright you pass laws to ban guns....

And the criminal element in this country that likes to use guns are just going to walk in and turn their guns in and swear an oath never to use another gun in the commission of a crime....

All because criminals obey the law....

And all gun related crime will disappear.

I dont know if you people are delusional, naive, or have done too many drugs, but obviously you live in a fantasy world.


Yet gun related crime is still fairly low in Europe, something you happily sidestep.


Are you trying to tell me that all the guns in criminal hands will be turned in with no problem because of the civic mindedness of the criminals?

Really?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 12:57:48 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright you pass laws to ban guns....

And the criminal element in this country that likes to use guns are just going to walk in and turn their guns in and swear an oath never to use another gun in the commission of a crime....

All because criminals obey the law....

And all gun related crime will disappear.

I dont know if you people are delusional, naive, or have done too many drugs, but obviously you live in a fantasy world.


Yet gun related crime is still fairly low in Europe, something you happily sidestep.


Are you trying to tell me that all the guns in criminal hands will be turned in with no problem because of the civic mindedness of the criminals?

Really?


no but police can take guns away from criminals just because they have them with no further investigation, for sure it will incrase prison population, but in europe guns are not banned, are just more regulated so all this dichotomy no control on guns vs total ban is just a strawman.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:03:57 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Are you trying to tell me that all the guns in criminal hands will be turned in with no problem because of the civic mindedness of the criminals?

Really?


Sighs.......thats not what I am telling you, I am telling you gun control works. Not more guns but less guns.

Bama remarked on Blairs daughter possibly being threatened with a real gun, It is more likely to have been an immitation but still.

The robbers ran off as some of Ms Blairs UNARMED friends appeared on the scene. Do you see where I am heading with this ?

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:06:20 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Gun ownership up..

Deaths by guns down.

So the number of guns have *no* real bearing on the number of deaths.






So far that is not true on both counts.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/13/2617131/largest-gun-study-guns-murder/

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:06:44 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you Eulero.

JLF, gun homicides per 100,000 in the US are 2.97 % In the UK its only 0.7 % Do you want me to do the maths ?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:20:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thank you Eulero.

JLF, gun homicides per 100,000 in the US are 2.97 % In the UK its only 0.7 % Do you want me to do the maths ?

Again the U S murder rate with clubs exceeds the total Japanese murder rate.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:20:57 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Are you trying to tell me that all the guns in criminal hands will be turned in with no problem because of the civic mindedness of the criminals?

Really?


Sighs.......thats not what I am telling you, I am telling you gun control works. Not more guns but less guns.

Bama remarked on Blairs daughter possibly being threatened with a real gun, It is more likely to have been an immitation but still.

The robbers ran off as some of Ms Blairs UNARMED friends appeared on the scene. Do you see where I am heading with this ?



that's what I was telling in another thread if the difference is in most european country having a real gun without your name connected with it it's not something small and first timers criminals can afford, painting black the red tap on a toy gun can be effective in scaring your victim but also put yo in a very bad situation if facing resistence.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:21:57 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thank you Eulero.

JLF, gun homicides per 100,000 in the US are 2.97 % In the UK its only 0.7 % Do you want me to do the maths ?

Again the U S murder rate with clubs exceeds the total Japanese murder rate.


And how many banks are robbed with clubs?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:21:59 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright you pass laws to ban guns....

And the criminal element in this country that likes to use guns are just going to walk in and turn their guns in and swear an oath never to use another gun in the commission of a crime....

All because criminals obey the law....

And all gun related crime will disappear.

I dont know if you people are delusional, naive, or have done too many drugs, but obviously you live in a fantasy world.


Yet gun related crime is still fairly low in Europe, something you happily sidestep.


Are you trying to tell me that all the guns in criminal hands will be turned in with no problem because of the civic mindedness of the criminals?

Really?


no but police can take guns away from criminals just because they have them with no further investigation, for sure it will incrase prison population, but in europe guns are not banned, are just more regulated so all this dichotomy no control on guns vs total ban is just a strawman.

And how do they know where these guns will be.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:23:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thank you Eulero.

JLF, gun homicides per 100,000 in the US are 2.97 % In the UK its only 0.7 % Do you want me to do the maths ?

Again the U S murder rate with clubs exceeds the total Japanese murder rate.


And how many banks are robbed with clubs?

You've ben watching too many movies most bank "robberies" are committed with computers.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:29:12 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright you pass laws to ban guns....

And the criminal element in this country that likes to use guns are just going to walk in and turn their guns in and swear an oath never to use another gun in the commission of a crime....

All because criminals obey the law....

And all gun related crime will disappear.

I dont know if you people are delusional, naive, or have done too many drugs, but obviously you live in a fantasy world.


Yet gun related crime is still fairly low in Europe, something you happily sidestep.


Are you trying to tell me that all the guns in criminal hands will be turned in with no problem because of the civic mindedness of the criminals?

Really?


no but police can take guns away from criminals just because they have them with no further investigation, for sure it will incrase prison population, but in europe guns are not banned, are just more regulated so all this dichotomy no control on guns vs total ban is just a strawman.

And how do they know where these guns will be.


That was not the point in my post so I won't follow you on the side track, and I'm not giving you any foothold to ignore the main point and stick on that.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:36:13 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thank you Eulero.

JLF, gun homicides per 100,000 in the US are 2.97 % In the UK its only 0.7 % Do you want me to do the maths ?


I am not denying there is a problem. I am simply saying that your "solution" is unrealistic.

Sure police can confiscate guns, put people in prison... which is what happens anyway.

Now, we already have overcrowded prisons, mostly non violent offenders, which the rest of the world screams about how inhuman our prison system is anyway, so we just add to the problem.

Personally, I feel that rapists, child molesters, child pornographers, murderers should not be placed in prison for life. A better solution would be to take them out, stand em against a wall, and let the families of their victims keep shooting them until they are dead.

Someone once more mentioned accidental gun deaths, yearly average is 831 out of 145 to 160 million gun owners. Accidental deaths due to negligent drivers exceed that number by tens of thousands.

In the United States, when there is a shooting we blame the gun and gun owners.

When there is a fatal car accident we blame the driver.

When there is a terrorist act, we are told not to blame all Muslims or what ever group the terrorist came from.

Then there is the famous "guns kill people" line that makes me laugh. Guns do not kill people, people with guns kill people. Just like people with bombs kill people, people with knives kill people, people with clubs kill people, people with bare hands kill people.

By the way, I redid an experiment over the last couple of weeks, daily telling my firearms to kill someone. They never did. They must be defective or pacifists.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:40:48 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to suggest that a local ban (not even state level) not working proves that a Federal ban wouldn't work?
The Chicago case is admittedly terrible, but it isn't proof that a nationwide gun ban would be equally as ineffective.



Well, beyond that the bloody things aren't banned in Chicago, oi?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Now tell me again.... - 9/20/2013 1:41:52 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thank you Eulero.

JLF, gun homicides per 100,000 in the US are 2.97 % In the UK its only 0.7 % Do you want me to do the maths ?

Again the U S murder rate with clubs exceeds the total Japanese murder rate.


And how many banks are robbed with clubs?

You've ben watching too many movies most bank "robberies" are committed with computers.


most or every? and if it is most how many person went in a bank with a club to rob it and how many with guns?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 40
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