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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Since the phrase in the US Constitution is the "general Welfare of the United States," definition #2 would apply moreso than #1
First it is not in the constitution. It is in the preamble.
I remember it saying "we the people". Is your copy different?
So the conclusion based on a false premis would necessarily be false also...both fucking definitions apply.

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Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
So, "general Welfare" would mean that the Welfare of the USA is a reason to form the Federal Government, not individual welfare of the citizens.
How is it that the welfare of the u.s.a. does not include the welfare of the citizens of the u.s.a?

Go back to The Federalist #45 section quoted. The Federal Government's authorities were to be over external things that effected the nation as whole, and to govern to the States among themselves. That is, they would be the authority in issues between the states. The States were left to the internal state of affairs.

There was a rather violent expression of the feds supremacy in internal affairs in the early 1860's.
The constitution gives congress the power to make laws...how does that limit the feds power over the individual and the states?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, you, too, think that a sports franchise doesn't aid the local economy?

So you think our country should go broke and that everyone should starve to death?

I didn't need any examples, but thanks. I can, quite easily, recognize those questions.

than why do you keep using those dishonest questions?

I don't.

So you think discussions shouldn't be intellectually honest?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, you, too, think that a sports franchise doesn't aid the local economy?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
So you think our country should go broke and that everyone should starve to death?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
So you think discussions shouldn't be intellectually honest?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, you, too, think that a sports franchise doesn't aid the local economy?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
So you think our country should go broke and that everyone should starve to death?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
So you think discussions shouldn't be intellectually honest?

I hope the problem with the "so you think" format is becoming apparent by now because for the love of Dog how many times have we had this discussion [sm=banghead.gif]
When "so you think" shows up in a post just hit backspace until that turd is gone.

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Since the phrase in the US Constitution is the "general Welfare of the United States," definition #2 would apply moreso than #1

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Actually, the Preamble doesn't contain the full phrase, "general Welfare of the United States.

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" However...

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Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

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And, not that government should be the means by which people don't starve to death.

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Right, because government is the only way.

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The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

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The US Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government the power to make just any laws. The only laws the Federal Government is authorized to make are those that are "necessary and proper for carrying into Execution" the enumerated powers.

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If the authority to dictate the daily lives of the people wasn't given to the Federal Government, it isn't authorized to do so.

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The Federal Government was authorized to deal with external situations that the nation faces as one entity. That isn't what the nation faces as 50 individual states, or 317M individuals

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Here come the half truths.

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Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

While this is true it is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the preamble where the founders give their reasons for committing treason.
To try a little slight of hand and try to redirect the core of the discussion is disingenuous.

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And, not that government should be the means by which people don't starve to death.

And the corolary to this is that govt should let it's citizens starve to death.

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Right, because government is the only way.

Must it be "either or"?
Wasnt one of the reasons the founders gave for committing treason "To promote the general welfare"?

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The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

Please note the two bolded words from federalist 45.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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The US Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government the power to make just any laws. The only laws the Federal Government is authorized to make are those that are "necessary and proper for carrying into Execution" the enumerated powers.

Could we be a little more specific. Which laws that the fed has passed are not supported by the "enumerated powers"?
What the fuck are the enumerated powers? If they are enumerated why is it not possible to post them?

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If the authority to dictate the daily lives of the people wasn't given to the Federal Government, it isn't authorized to do so.

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The Federal Government was authorized to deal with external situations that the nation faces as one entity. That isn't what the nation faces as 50 individual states, or 317M individuals

Perhaps a reading of the whole constituton might put this moronic notion in the garbage where it belongs.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
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The US Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government the power to make just any laws. The only laws the Federal Government is authorized to make are those that are "necessary and proper for carrying into Execution" the enumerated powers.
Could we be a little more specific. Which laws that the fed has passed are not supported by the "enumerated powers"?
What the fuck are the enumerated powers? If they are enumerated why is it not possible to post them?

Please follow the advice you give later in your own post. They are not hard to find.

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If the authority to dictate the daily lives of the people wasn't given to the Federal Government, it isn't authorized to do so.
Where does the federal govt. unconstitutionally dictatate the daily lives of the people?


Example: Obamacare's mandate that you make a purchase or pay a fine.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Here come the half truths.
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Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
While this is true it is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the preamble where the founders give their reasons for committing treason.
To try a little slight of hand and try to redirect the core of the discussion is disingenuous.

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So, stop doing it.

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Do you think those who wrote the Constitution intended for the Federal Government to be used as a provider for each individual?

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The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
Please note the two bolded words from federalist 45.

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I see them noted. Apparently, you missed something in your interpretation. The second word you bolded was in reference to things overseen by the State governments. That is, not the Federal Government.

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The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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:
ORIGINAL: thompsonx
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The US Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government the power to make just any laws. The only laws the Federal Government is authorized to make are those that are "necessary and proper for carrying into Execution" the enumerated powers.
Could we be a little more specific. Which laws that the fed has passed are not supported by the "enumerated powers"?
What the fuck are the enumerated powers? If they are enumerated why is it not possible to post them?
Please follow the advice you give later in your own post. They are not hard to find.

Then why have you not produced them?

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Do you think those who wrote the constitution intended for the federal government to be used as a provider for korporate amerika?

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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:
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
Please note the two bolded words from federalist 45.

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I see them noted. Apparently, you missed something in your interpretation. The second word you bolded was in reference to things overseen by the State governments. That is, not the Federal Government.

Why would one think so? It speaks directly to the authority of the state to:

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The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
So according to this it would be unconstitutional for the govt to subsidize any korporation or business even though it might have some benifit to the citizen that the founders claimed to have committed treason to provide general welfare for?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
So according to this it would be unconstitutional for the govt to subsidize any korporation or business even though it might have some benifit to the citizen that the founders claimed to have committed treason to provide general welfare for?

And, you are, once again, attempting to get back to the "Subsidy vs. Tax Relief" argument discussion. Didn't work last time you attempted it. Won't work this time. You and I will never agree on it. Accept that, and move on.