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Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 10:24:19 AM

hlen5

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- I would love to see pageants banned in the US and the mothers horse whipped, and not in a good way. Chatte Parfait

Obviously, this was inspired by the beauty pageant thread.

Maria B shared how she felt about doing beauty pageants as a child. She also spoke about how that affected her sense of self.

How much of the hyper-sexualized society we live in is the product of the culture we are immersed in vs individual attitudes? We are given ideas about sexuality by osmosis, absorbing what we hear in the home and in the media.

How much should we blame Honeybooboo's Mom vs our society and mores at large? What about Honeybooboo's Dad?
How do we feel about boys and young men being ever more body and looks conscious?

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 12:12:28 PM

eulero83

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I've seen a video from that show, well I hope she's in no way a rapresentative member of your society but just a living warning on what endogamy can lead to.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 12:55:39 PM

hlen5

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I wasn't specifically speaking of that show as much as how we are raising our children in general. Hyper-sexualization isn't limited to the US.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 1:00:53 PM

jlf1961

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If it were up to me, my daughter would have been wearing a feed sack dress until she was in her thirties, dates would have had the image of me cleaning a number of firearms forever burned into their brains.

As for child beauty pageants, considering how some of those kids talked to their mothers, they are not doing much for self esteem or since of self but are doing wonders for raising self centered smart mouthed brats in dire need of some major discipline, including a good spanking.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 1:05:19 PM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If it were up to me, my daughter would have been wearing a feed sack dress until she was in her thirties, dates would have had the image of me cleaning a number of firearms forever burned into their brains.

As for child beauty pageants, considering how some of those kids talked to their mothers, they are not doing much for self esteem or since of self but are doing wonders for raising self centered smart mouthed brats in dire need of some major discipline, including a good spanking.

How do those children talk to their mothers? many of the children I knew within such scenarios were absolutely terrified of their mothers! am I missing something here?

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 1:08:56 PM

jlf1961

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There were a couple on the TLC show that spoke back to their mothers in such language it was bleeped out.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 1:34:48 PM

MariaB

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That surely shows what sort of homes those kids are being brought up in. I'm all for discipline, I was probably on the stricter side of motherhood but come on, when a kid talks abusively back to their parents at a tender age in front of a television camera, something has gone very wrong. Disrespect breeds disrespect... anger breeds anger and so on. When a parent teaches a child to be loud brash and overly confident in front of a crowd of people, that loud brash confidence can go in two directions... positive or negative.

Reality shows that show children being rude to their parents are all about gathering a captive audience who can tut and verbally vent their own disdain and anger towards other individuals. In this case its about taking angry children and showing them up, not for what they are but for what their parents have made them. Very sad and certainly not something you should form an opinion on.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 2:54:23 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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quote:

How much of the hyper-sexualized society we live in is the product of the culture we are immersed in vs individual attitudes? We are given ideas about sexuality by osmosis, absorbing what we hear in the home and in the media.

It's individual attitudes that form and comprise the society we live in, no? It's clear based on TV ads that sex sells. They wouldn't drape the sexy female over the car if it didn't. Sex appeals to our basest and lowest common denominator.

Now, I've nothing against sex, I like it. I personally enjoy the differences between male and female. What I take issue with are those individuals who think being sexy is a person's only attribute. That if you don't have the sexy asset, you're nothing. And they have used the idiocy of the general US population to foist this attitude onto children.

It's like the fashion magazines, who reads that nonsense? Only people whose self esteem is based entirely on how they look and what they wear. But fashion is big business here. Plastic surgery for cosmetic reasons is big business. For both males and females.

I don't have anything against looking good or being sexy, as long as you don't think that all you are. And the media and TV tells young girls that's all they are. Note that it is mostly females that sell sex, not (usually) males. Although that is changing.

In doing research about self esteem, you find its the same in boys and girls until the pre-teens, then girl's self-esteem suddenly plummets. The reason? Struggles over self image, if they are slim and sexy enough. This can start as early as 9. Girls active in sports tend to have less issues with body image and self esteem.

Of course family is going to affect the child's sexualization and self esteem. Children from an early age go out into the world where they are bombarded with societal messages. It's up to parents to work to counteract those message they find negative.

I am obviously a female of strong opinion. Did I share those opinions with my children as they grew up? Of course. But I didn't force them, I asked for *their* opinions. From an early age I fostered critical thinking skills, not just with my kids but at their school via the Junior Great Books program.

I've never watched that TV program, nor do I want to. But my impression is that boys are now or will be facing their own self esteem and body images issues. What we can do about that as a society I have no idea. But as parents we can deal with it on an individual level.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 9/26/2013 3:42:17 PM >

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 2:58:19 PM

kiwisub12

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Growing up I really enjoyed the film "Grease", and thought no more of it.

I saw it again a little while ago, and was appalled when I realized the message imbedded in it was "if you want your man, YOU have to change who you are". And not for the better.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 6:53:37 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If it were up to me, my daughter would have been wearing a feed sack dress until she was in her thirties, dates would have had the image of me cleaning a number of firearms forever burned into their brains.

Auto co-wrecks challenged me yesterday. When I came upon the realization that my twins are turning 14 in one month I wrote," The twins are turning 14. I am loading all of my guns with silver bullets."

It got changed to "unloading."

I despise autocorrect. I learned how to code when I was 8 years old; the computer is supposed to do what I tell it to, not what it "thinks" is the right thing. My slave girls never make that mistake, why do you?

/rant.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 7:02:00 PM

dcnovice

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FR

Ellen Goodman wrote a column on this back in 1980, and it has remained with me ever since.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19800919&id=TfJVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6eEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2527,5053351

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 7:24:57 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

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Logistically and theoretically I understand that my little girls are going to grow up and have sex.

Emotionally, IT AIN'T NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

While I may intellectually understand that it is happening it is in the best interest of boys defiling my little girls to hide it. Preferably by about 3/4 of a mile. Actually the next county would be better.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/26/2013 9:05:47 PM

DesFIP

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My daughter didn't own a pair of shorts from the beginning of middle school through the end of high school. Not because I wouldn't buy her any but because not one store in the mall sold any that came as low as mid thigh. The school requirement was that the shorts be lower than the fingertip when you put your arm down.

Nice and reasonable, right? Wrong, because you couldn't buy any that long. Not even JCPenney or Sears carried anything longer than barely covering her ass. So the kid on medication that made her susceptible to heat exhaustion wore capris or cut off jeans all summer. And was sick from the heat all summer too.

I'm still pissed about it years later.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 1:42:02 AM

hlen5

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http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/walmart-yanks-scandalous-kids-costume-after-uproar-174050085.html

I thought this apropo to the discussion.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 3:00:58 AM

MariaB

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Why do mums make their daughters into proxy princesses and put them in beauty pageants? Im only speaking on behalf of the extreme mums here and not the ones that are just having a bit of fun without putting enormous pressure on the kid. The mother, mine is a good example, likely has a condition called 'Achievement by Proxy Distortion'
Is it the mothers fault? Personally I don't think it is. I believe many of these women have grown up in a world, probably very similar to the one they are now subjecting their child to. They firmly believe that beauty and perfection will pave their child's future and happiness.

This is an interesting article that talks about the tree stages of ABPD
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/food-thought/201211/princess-proxy-explaining-extreme-pageant-moms
The first stage of ABPD called “Risky sacrifice.” With risky sacrifice, the adult loses the ability to differentiate their needs for success and achievement from the child’s. Parents may make risky financial decisions to support the child’s perceived abilities; rationalizations to justify the child’s intensely focused participation in a specific activity (eg: pageants) and increasing pressure for the child to perform no matter what are characteristics. The pageants I attended were rife with this behavior with many parents saying textbook ABPD risky sacrifice comments like, “It costs a lot of money and we are in debt, but my daughter likes doing the pageants.” Really?

Funnily enough it was an addition of Vogue that brought the child modelling industry and child beauty pageants to its knees.
http://gawker.com/5725620/french-vogue-grooms-its-youngest-models-yet/

< Message edited by MariaB -- 9/27/2013 3:03:13 AM >

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 3:42:36 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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When a female's entire identity is dependent on looks and sexuality, loosing those things due to pregnancy and aging can be devastating. Those without the personal wherewithal to grow a new identity become 'Mom' -- this generic person who lives for and through the children.

Which is probably the worse thing you could do to them. Sure, babies and small children require a lot of time and energy, but by school age mothers should be getting back out into the world, reactivating their careers, doing volunteer work, etc. In other words, having an identity aside from 'Mom.' The very best way to raise happy, independent children with a strong identity is to be that yourself.

The absence of fathers in this discussion is chilling. I'm one of those old fashioned types who think children need two parents, a mother and a father (not necessarily male and female, but those with both feminine and masculine characteristics.) Both male and female children need this.

In any case, well into the 21st century, it is still the female's job to raise the children. And here in the good old US of A she's doing it with no inexpensive day care options, a school system still so entrenched in the 19th century farming culture the kids have summer off, spring breaks and winter breaks, and get out of school at 2 or 3, hours before mom gets off work.

And yeah, most often mom works, because she has to, it takes two incomes to support a family unless one of them is well beyond average.

So many parents work so hard to pay the bills, they have no life of their own. It's no wonder they live through their children - most often through sports. How I have seen parents behave in organized sports for children is appalling.

This is a wonderfully complex issue to discuss, but really there are no easy answers. Everything about it is endemic to our instant gratification society which reveres money and sexuality at the expense of personal integrity and real family values. And I hate to even use that term, since the Christian right spews it out so often. Too bad when they mouth family values, they are doing everything they can to cut programs that would support families.

Okay, I need more tea, off the soapbox for now.

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 5:55:32 AM

MariaB

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Very thought provoking post Chatte... thanks!

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 7:57:45 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

The absence of fathers in this discussion is chilling. I'm one of those old fashioned types who think children need two parents, a mother and a father (not necessarily male and female, but those with both feminine and masculine characteristics.) Both male and female children need this....................

This is a wonderfully complex issue to discuss, but really there are no easy answers. Everything about it is endemic to our instant gratification society which reveres money and sexuality at the expense of personal integrity and real family values. And I hate to even use that term, since the Christian right spews it out so often. Too bad when they mouth family values, they are doing everything they can to cut programs that would support families...............

What are the Dads' responsibilities in where the culture is today?

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 8:21:14 AM

punisher440

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/walmart-yanks-scandalous-kids-costume-after-uproar-174050085.html

I thought this apropo to the discussion.

I saw that story on another site and it had the image of the packaging on it that I wanted to use in the TW thread....but I don't like getting gold letters....

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RE: Natural Sexuality, Socialization and Mothers - 9/27/2013 2:50:20 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

- I would love to see pageants banned in the US and the mothers horse whipped, and not in a good way. Chatte Parfait

Obviously, this was inspired by the beauty pageant thread.

Maria B shared how she felt about doing beauty pageants as a child. She also spoke about how that affected her sense of self.

How much of the hyper-sexualized society we live in is the product of the culture we are immersed in vs individual attitudes? We are given ideas about sexuality by osmosis, absorbing what we hear in the home and in the media.

How much should we blame Honeybooboo's Mom vs our society and mores at large? What about Honeybooboo's Dad?
How do we feel about boys and young men being ever more body and looks conscious?

I've never watched one, sans the news reports. Never quite understood the whole farm team kind of thing it involves.

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