RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/5/2013 8:39:34 PM)

quote:

McDs and Dunkin Donuts have announced that gun owners are welcome in their restaurants.


I just had a vivid picture of lots of enormously obese people ramming hamburgers and donuts into their mouths while comparing their firearms.

Gawd. It's past my bedtime.




Just0Us0Two -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/5/2013 9:07:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Notwithstanding that, it's kind of revealing to me that you think I might get caught up in 'the gun culture' in the USA were I to visit a range there during a visit to your fine country. Why? If it's a sport: fine. I can understand the buzz of shooting at targets. But as I've often been told, guns aren't about fun for Americans, they're about self-defence. This, presumably, is a deadly serious business - given that it's about life and death. How can it be a fun thing one minute and life and death the next?


For me, it's always been a bit of both. I enjoy going to the range. I enjoy the day out with friends. The slightly competitive nature of seeing who does better on a given day. Even breaking everything down and cleaning up afterwards. It's just something I very much enjoy. That doesn't mean I take it any less seriously when I carry for protection.

Years ago, I used to study martial arts. I enjoyed just about everything about it. I enjoyed the discipline, and I loved sparring. It was fun, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't an air of deadly seriousness about it. I was active duty Army when I first got started, and was still in the Guard. So everything I was doing had the potential to be deadly serious.

Lots of things can be both fun and serious. Most people consider their jobs to be very serious. Do a bad job, get fired, and you could wind up on the street. That doesn't stop people from enjoying their jobs.

@TJ444
You and I don't generally agree when it comes to guns, but if you're being accurate as far as your friend who leaves loaded guns around when he has (young?) grand-kids in the house, I'd have to say he's nuts. I keep loaded guns in the house, but then I don't have kids. Anytime I do have any over, I make sure everything is unloaded and locked away. Hell, when my wife went nuts a few years ago (a brain tumor that caused all sorts of mental problems), I got everything out of the house and asked my brother to hold it for me for a while. Odds were she couldn't have accessed my safe anyway, but I didn't want to take the risk.




BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/5/2013 11:04:43 PM)

Notwithstanding that, it's kind of revealing to me that you think I might get caught up in 'the gun culture' in the USA were I to visit a range there during a visit to your fine country. Why? If it's a sport: fine. I can understand the buzz of shooting at targets. But as I've often been told, guns aren't about fun for Americans, they're about self-defence. This, presumably, is a deadly serious business - given that it's about life and death. How can it be a fun thing one minute and life and death the next?


Have you never seen a car that you thought was a thing of beauty?
Don't you know people who enjoy driving their cars and take pride in the one they own.
Yet the purpose of a car is to get you safely from point A to point B very serious business in which you can die.




BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/5/2013 11:05:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Us0Two

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Notwithstanding that, it's kind of revealing to me that you think I might get caught up in 'the gun culture' in the USA were I to visit a range there during a visit to your fine country. Why? If it's a sport: fine. I can understand the buzz of shooting at targets. But as I've often been told, guns aren't about fun for Americans, they're about self-defence. This, presumably, is a deadly serious business - given that it's about life and death. How can it be a fun thing one minute and life and death the next?


For me, it's always been a bit of both. I enjoy going to the range. I enjoy the day out with friends. The slightly competitive nature of seeing who does better on a given day. Even breaking everything down and cleaning up afterwards. It's just something I very much enjoy. That doesn't mean I take it any less seriously when I carry for protection.

Years ago, I used to study martial arts. I enjoyed just about everything about it. I enjoyed the discipline, and I loved sparring. It was fun, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't an air of deadly seriousness about it. I was active duty Army when I first got started, and was still in the Guard. So everything I was doing had the potential to be deadly serious.

Lots of things can be both fun and serious. Most people consider their jobs to be very serious. Do a bad job, get fired, and you could wind up on the street. That doesn't stop people from enjoying their jobs.

@TJ444
You and I don't generally agree when it comes to guns, but if you're being accurate as far as your friend who leaves loaded guns around when he has (young?) grand-kids in the house, I'd have to say he's nuts. I keep loaded guns in the house, but then I don't have kids. Anytime I do have any over, I make sure everything is unloaded and locked away. Hell, when my wife went nuts a few years ago (a brain tumor that caused all sorts of mental problems), I got everything out of the house and asked my brother to hold it for me for a while. Odds were she couldn't have accessed my safe anyway, but I didn't want to take the risk.

Sorry to hear your wife had such a rough time.




BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 12:57:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

McDs and Dunkin Donuts have announced that gun owners are welcome in their restaurants.


I just had a vivid picture of lots of enormously obese people ramming hamburgers and donuts into their mouths while comparing their firearms.

Gawd. It's past my bedtime.

Amazing, I have never seen gun owners comparing their firearms in public.




jackieukwife -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 1:02:04 AM)

Wish we could have guns for self defence in the UK




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 2:22:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackieukwife

Wish we could have guns for self defence in the UK

You can - if you can get a license to own one.
But unlike the US, the rules are pretty strict and you'd have to convince the authorities that you have reasonable cause to have one (defence on it's own isn't enough) and prove that ur mentally stable, and have the correct secure facilities to store the weapon and the ammo separately.




thezeppo -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 6:41:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

No we see disgusting and perverted as resorting to name calling rather than honest debate




quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

On the other hand here I am free to point out that you are a reprehensible excuse for a human being with the analytical skills of my dog and a level of arrogance virtually unparalleled and totally unjustified.



This was funny yesterday when I was drunk, and its still funny now I'm hungover. Without even getting into you calling someone else arrogant after using the royal 'we' to extrapolate your first statement across America, these two posts were less than an hour apart! What a gobshite you are [;)]


Slightly more on topic, when I hear of a gun-related tragedy in the United States my instinctive reaction is 'why do they all have to have guns?' I don't personally like them and I don't really get it when posters argue that more guns should be introduced in the wake of a tragedy. I've come to understand that there is a cultural divide in this regard and that it would be unfair to judge one side by the standards of the other. I've also come around to the idea that I'm a hypocrite if I argue that there should be tighter gun control or a ban on guns in the wake of tragic events. Its not a perfect analogy but if someone were to play Grand Theft Auto for 24 hours straight and then drive their car into a group of people I would still fully expect to be able to keep my copy of the game. I don't think people like MasterCaneman and DaddySatyr should have their guns taken away because someone else miles away committed an atrocity. I suppose I'm coming around to the personal responsibility argument - with the proviso that anyone whose gun is used to commit murder should be tried for the same crime, if they aren't already.





BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 11:18:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

No we see disgusting and perverted as resorting to name calling rather than honest debate




quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

On the other hand here I am free to point out that you are a reprehensible excuse for a human being with the analytical skills of my dog and a level of arrogance virtually unparalleled and totally unjustified.



This was funny yesterday when I was drunk, and its still funny now I'm hungover. Without even getting into you calling someone else arrogant after using the royal 'we' to extrapolate your first statement across America, these two posts were less than an hour apart! What a gobshite you are [;)]


Slightly more on topic, when I hear of a gun-related tragedy in the United States my instinctive reaction is 'why do they all have to have guns?' I don't personally like them and I don't really get it when posters argue that more guns should be introduced in the wake of a tragedy. I've come to understand that there is a cultural divide in this regard and that it would be unfair to judge one side by the standards of the other. I've also come around to the idea that I'm a hypocrite if I argue that there should be tighter gun control or a ban on guns in the wake of tragic events. Its not a perfect analogy but if someone were to play Grand Theft Auto for 24 hours straight and then drive their car into a group of people I would still fully expect to be able to keep my copy of the game. I don't think people like MasterCaneman and DaddySatyr should have their guns taken away because someone else miles away committed an atrocity. I suppose I'm coming around to the personal responsibility argument - with the proviso that anyone whose gun is used to commit murder should be tried for the same crime, if they aren't already.



In the first post I was not using the royal we.
That was the we as in those of us who think we are being talked down to think so because.
I used we because I was speaking for a group.
The second post was because he had spent 6 pages insulting me on a moderated thread and has a history of doing so until I respond in kind.
Then he denies being the person who reports me for doing so.
I was catching up in one post for the better part of a week of abusive posts from him.




BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 11:21:40 AM)

Slightly more on topic, when I hear of a gun-related tragedy in the United States my instinctive reaction is 'why do they all have to have guns?' I don't personally like them and I don't really get it when posters argue that more guns should be introduced in the wake of a tragedy. I've come to understand that there is a cultural divide in this regard and that it would be unfair to judge one side by the standards of the other. I've also come around to the idea that I'm a hypocrite if I argue that there should be tighter gun control or a ban on guns in the wake of tragic events. Its not a perfect analogy but if someone were to play Grand Theft Auto for 24 hours straight and then drive their car into a group of people I would still fully expect to be able to keep my copy of the game. I don't think people like MasterCaneman and DaddySatyr should have their guns taken away because someone else miles away committed an atrocity. I suppose I'm coming around to the personal responsibility argument - with the proviso that anyone whose gun is used to commit murder should be tried for the same crime, if they aren't already.


This part of your post, on the other hand seems reasonable and well thought out.




lovmuffin -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 12:49:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackieukwife

Wish we could have guns for self defence in the UK

...............and have the correct secure facilities to store the weapon and the ammo separately.



Locking up your gun and ammunition separately would be fairly useless for self defense. I guess if you had the time to unlock your stuff and load the weapon or ask the perpetrator if he would be kind enough to wait for you to do so, it might work.




lovmuffin -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 12:55:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jackieukwife

Wish we could have guns for self defence in the UK


Good for you jackieukwife, thanks for writing that and welcome to the forums. [:)]




MasterCaneman -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 1:13:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

McDs and Dunkin Donuts have announced that gun owners are welcome in their restaurants.


I just had a vivid picture of lots of enormously obese people ramming hamburgers and donuts into their mouths while comparing their firearms.

Gawd. It's past my bedtime.

Amazing, I have never seen gun owners comparing their firearms in public.

A big part of having a CCW is not letting the general public know you have one. Defeats the purpose and upsets people. After all the hoops I had to jump through, background checks and med releases, it's insane to do something as stupid as that.




BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 1:18:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

McDs and Dunkin Donuts have announced that gun owners are welcome in their restaurants.


I just had a vivid picture of lots of enormously obese people ramming hamburgers and donuts into their mouths while comparing their firearms.

Gawd. It's past my bedtime.

Amazing, I have never seen gun owners comparing their firearms in public.

A big part of having a CCW is not letting the general public know you have one. Defeats the purpose and upsets people. After all the hoops I had to jump through, background checks and med releases, it's insane to do something as stupid as that.

Not as rough getting a permit here.
That behavior would be just as stupid.
Could get you arrested for disturbing the peace.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 1:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackieukwife

Wish we could have guns for self defence in the UK

...............and have the correct secure facilities to store the weapon and the ammo separately.



Locking up your gun and ammunition separately would be fairly useless for self defense. I guess if you had the time to unlock your stuff and load the weapon or ask the perpetrator if he would be kind enough to wait for you to do so, it might work.

And that's why the notion of 'self defense' isn't a good enough reason to justify having a gun or license in the first place.
There are loads of guns scattered throughout the UK and generally used by reasonably sensible owners.
Where the divide is, we don't allow guns to be in any public place unless completely locked away.
That's why a lot of our criminals don't carry either - difficult to know where there is a gun in the first place and the fact it's very likely to be securely locked out of harms way.
So for pretty much most scenarios, you aren't going to be facing a criminal with a firearm.




lovmuffin -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 3:31:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomwarf

And that's why the notion of 'self defense' isn't a good enough reason to justify having a gun or license in the first place.


Jackieukwife wrote "Wish we could have guns for self defence in the UK"

Then you come back sayin "You can - if you can get a license to own one."

Then you go on to contradict yourself with "and have the correct secure facilities to store the weapon and the ammo separately." You contradict yourself further in your post above. So I guess you really can't after all.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
There are loads of guns scattered throughout the UK and generally used by reasonably sensible owners.


You have loads of guns. We have a gajillion shit loads of guns scattered throughout the US and generally used by reasonably sensible owners.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
we don't allow guns to be in any public place unless completely locked away.


So if the guns are all locked up how are they allowed in a public place ? Yeah that makes sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
That's why a lot of our criminals don't carry either - difficult to know where there is a gun in the first place and the fact it's very likely to be securely locked out of harms way.


Hmmmm.....that makes sense too like the criminal is going to comply with the law keeping his gun locked up even though it's unlawful to have it in the first place.




Wendel27 -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 4:16:02 PM)

 ''Hmmmm.....that makes sense too like the criminal is going to comply with the law keeping his gun locked up even though it's unlawful to have it in the first place.''

Yes that's precisely why the streets of Britain are a bloodbath with criminals mowing down innocent people on a whim. Which in turn is why our murder rate is so much higher than in America.... Except that simply isn't the case. It's much harder to get access to a firearm in Britain which in turn makes it much harder for a criminal to possess one. Not impossible but I'm yet to see a system which can offer such blanket security.





Politesub53 -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 4:28:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

No we see disgusting and perverted as resorting to name calling rather than honest debate




quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

On the other hand here I am free to point out that you are a reprehensible excuse for a human being with the analytical skills of my dog and a level of arrogance virtually unparalleled and totally unjustified.



This was funny yesterday when I was drunk, and its still funny now I'm hungover. Without even getting into you calling someone else arrogant after using the royal 'we' to extrapolate your first statement across America, these two posts were less than an hour apart! What a gobshite you are [;)]


Slightly more on topic, when I hear of a gun-related tragedy in the United States my instinctive reaction is 'why do they all have to have guns?' I don't personally like them and I don't really get it when posters argue that more guns should be introduced in the wake of a tragedy. I've come to understand that there is a cultural divide in this regard and that it would be unfair to judge one side by the standards of the other. I've also come around to the idea that I'm a hypocrite if I argue that there should be tighter gun control or a ban on guns in the wake of tragic events. Its not a perfect analogy but if someone were to play Grand Theft Auto for 24 hours straight and then drive their car into a group of people I would still fully expect to be able to keep my copy of the game. I don't think people like MasterCaneman and DaddySatyr should have their guns taken away because someone else miles away committed an atrocity. I suppose I'm coming around to the personal responsibility argument - with the proviso that anyone whose gun is used to commit murder should be tried for the same crime, if they aren't already.



In the first post I was not using the royal we.
That was the we as in those of us who think we are being talked down to think so because.
I used we because I was speaking for a group.
The second post was because he had spent 6 pages insulting me on a moderated thread and has a history of doing so until I respond in kind.
Then he denies being the person who reports me for doing so.
I was catching up in one post for the better part of a week of abusive posts from him.


Six pages correcting your errors is not the same as six pages insulting you. You should get your facts right before making dubious claims. If you think I am insulting you then fucking report me, if you think I am trying to get the thread closed, then fucking report me. The mods will warn me soon enough. It is beyond your capability to work out anyone can report any post, the mods will then read the thread in question and clean up anything they see fit, be it your errors, or my errors. Unless you are special, and not just special needs, the mods will also send you gold letters, as they do me. Each one explains why a post has been pulled. Stop bleating about it, man up and accept your gold letters like everyone else does, including me. You dont get gold letters for something someone else has written.

I will also state clearly I have never reported you before this thread, you are just making shit up in order to look good. Admin have my permission to tell you if I am lying or not.

I did report your post Zeppo quoted though, but even then I asked if I was able to reply in kind without breaking the TOS as per the OP.

As for pointing out your errors, I am at liberty, as per the TOS to question content. If it`s dubious I will say so, likewise if its nonsense or just.......well just fucking laughable. If you cant handle that, then get your facts right before you post, like most people try and do.

You should note I am not the only one able to spot the hypocrisy of your posts, I am just the one who can normally be arsed to point it out.






Nosathro -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 5:00:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Duh churches have that option.
God doesn't need protecting but often his people do.

of course they do (have the option)..
but wouldn't it be God's will that allowed someone to be attacked and need protecting?

And you know that He wouldn't protect them by allowing the right person with a firearm be in the way.
Clearly you are ignoring the concept that freewill allows people to commit evil acts.


Free will you mean like the Inquisition? The Witch Trials? And how many other killings done in Gods Name, by good Christians.

So now you claim Godlike ability to see into the hearts of men to rule on who is and is not a good Christian?
I have never heard or read, except from you, that the inquisition or the witch hunts were conducted by good Christians.


Both were done by Christians to save the souls of those they believed needed saving.




BamaD -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (10/6/2013 7:55:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Duh churches have that option.
God doesn't need protecting but often his people do.

of course they do (have the option)..
but wouldn't it be God's will that allowed someone to be attacked and need protecting?

And you know that He wouldn't protect them by allowing the right person with a firearm be in the way.
Clearly you are ignoring the concept that freewill allows people to commit evil acts.


Free will you mean like the Inquisition? The Witch Trials? And how many other killings done in Gods Name, by good Christians.

So now you claim Godlike ability to see into the hearts of men to rule on who is and is not a good Christian?
I have never heard or read, except from you, that the inquisition or the witch hunts were conducted by good Christians.


Both were done by Christians to save the souls of those they believed needed saving.

Which dos not make either .




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