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butternutsquash -> RE: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment *** (11/6/2013 5:07:05 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HunterCA
(As an aside...all of those place now have very high gun violence and I assert its because only the outlaws have guns)
A claim that plenty of others have probably already proved to you is bogus, yet you keep repeating it. If that's how you're going to be, I'm going to vote to take away your guns just because I think you're an asshole. Grow enough balls to shoot straight with people instead of just repeating the same tired, discredited garbage. There is real quantitative science out there that suggests that gun laws actually do tend to have the intended effect. This has probably been pointed out to you repeatedly, and I think the reason you're ignoring it is that you're an immoral piece of shit.
There is an opportunity cost, though. I am convinced that socioeconomic factors have a lot more to do with violent crime, including gun violence, than the prevalence of gun ownership. I have been sifting through a lot of information on this subject. Although I can find some evidence on behalf of gun control, the same money that is spent on gun control could have been spent on initiatives to improve socioeconomic conditions in risk areas, such as by improved education. Improving the dissemination of information on how to prevent gun violence would probably also help. Arm the people with knowledge.
I really have trouble seeing guns as the source of any problem. I grew up around guns. I have hunted with them. I have shot snakes with them. People I know have shot coyotes with them. To me, they are just useful tools, and I'm accustomed to taking a very relaxed view toward them. Yeah, they can be dangerous, but so can a motor vehicle. "Don't aim a gun at your friend, even if you're sure it's not loaded," is right up there with "always come to a full stop at a stop sign, even if you're sure nobody is coming." I also can't imagine the idea of shooting at a human being.
On the other hand, when people talk about their "2nd Amendment rights," I have to laugh. We don't even get to exercise our "1st Amendment rights" unless we are within the bounds of "protected speech." If we took the 2nd Amendment as literally as some people are trying to insist, we'd be legalizing the private ownership of Scud missiles. I'm convinced that people who rely on this kind of argument are like rules lawyers at a D&D game: they're obnoxious assholes who lend nothing of value to the discussion.
Maybe the change in people's attitudes on guns is reflective of demographic changes. In the area that I grew up in, I learned how to shoot by taking shots at a dirt mound--as well as soda cans and other targets set out in front of it--behind my house, and I was up to my eyeballs in cottonmouths. Deer were a noxious, disease-bearing, corn-murdering pest, and you could no more feel sympathy for the damn things than you could a New York City sewer rat. Besides, they taste good.
With the rural population declining, though, people growing up today don't have those kinds of issues in their existence, and they really can't conceive of a gun being used for any other purpose than shooting a person in cold blood. They are skeptical of the tool's usefulness for "self-defense," and quite frankly, so am I. As our society changes, our outlook on these kinds of things will inevitably change with it.
I realize that my views are not especially compatible with the polemic of this discussion, and I realize that I'm not being clear on whether I'm "pro-gun" or "anti-gun." The truth is that I don't have strong emotions about any aspect of this discussion except for the lies and bullshit that I see flying around constantly. I think that even the gun control we have now is kind of stupid, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I've got better things to worry about than some dumb gun laws.
I also object to the idea that I need guns to keep me "free." No, I need an education to keep me free. If you don't have an educated perspective on what you hear in the media, then you are being controlled. Your will means nothing. You are open to being manipulated by paid-for pundits. You are their tool. You are their puppet. If you don't make a serious effort to enlighten yourself, then your "freedom" will quickly vanish, and the guns won't help you.
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