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ORIGINAL: DomKen

You can do the math for Venus orbit and it will be lower than the surface temp of Venus.

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ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I went to the hyperlink you provided in post 102, specifically
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/Numbers/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/estimating_the_temperature.htm
I got the following message: "Due to the lapse in federal government funding, this website is not available." I suppose this will have to wait for another day.

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Global warming has been delayed due to lack of Congressional funding.

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ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Can the source of the carbon dioxide be trace via its isotopes?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Can the source of the carbon dioxide be trace via its isotopes?

No. C12 and C13 are stable and C14 is created by cosmic rays and is formed and decays at a steady rate as long as we've stopped exploding h bombs in the atmosphere.

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ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Can the source of the carbon dioxide be trace via its isotopes?

No. C12 and C13 are stable and C14 is created by cosmic rays and is formed and decays at a steady rate as long as we've stopped exploding h bombs in the atmosphere.

Yes, but what about the isotopes of oxygen? Carbon dioxide has two oxygen atoms for every carbon atom. I am also not interested in dating the carbon dioxide. What I am interested in is if the distribution of isotopes in the greenhouse gases can shed any light on where they came from. The stability of the isotopes can help in some circumstances to establish dates, but I'm not interested in dates per se. For example, the date when plant matter died and stopped absorbing new carbon.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Stable isotopes are of no use in tracking the source of a compound as stable isotopes are very common and could have any source. Radioactive isotopes, actually ratios of isotopes, can be used to identify the source of a material because those decay products are unique to the source isotope ratios.

There are no radioactive isotopes of oxygen with half lives longer than about 2 minutes so they are of no use in what you want.

quote:

http://www.springer.com/environment/paleoenvironmental+sciences/book/978-90-481-3353-6

Stable isotope ratio variation in natural systems reflects the dynamics of Earth systems processes and imparts isotope labels to Earth materials. Carbon isotope ratios of atmospheric CO2 record exchange of carbon between the biosphere and the atmosphere; the incredible journeys of migrating monarchs is documented by hydrogen isotopes in their wings; and water carries an isotopic record of its source and history as it traverses the atmosphere and land surface.

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ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Stable isotopes are of no use in tracking the source of a compound as stable isotopes are very common and could have any source. Radioactive isotopes, actually ratios of isotopes, can be used to identify the source of a material because those decay products are unique to the source isotope ratios.

There are no radioactive isotopes of oxygen with half lives longer than about 2 minutes so they are of no use in what you want.

quote:

http://www.springer.com/environment/paleoenvironmental+sciences/book/978-90-481-3353-6

Stable isotope ratio variation in natural systems reflects the dynamics of Earth systems processes and imparts isotope labels to Earth materials. Carbon isotope ratios of atmospheric CO2 record exchange of carbon between the biosphere and the atmosphere; the incredible journeys of migrating monarchs is documented by hydrogen isotopes in their wings; and water carries an isotopic record of its source and history as it traverses the atmosphere and land surface.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Never heard of anyone able to track a source of a stable isotope. Get the book if you care since it does appear to be a new field.

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_atomic_mass

This value is the mean value of atomic weights of a number of "normal samples" of the element in question.

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ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Never heard of anyone able to track a source of a stable isotope. Get the book if you care since it does appear to be a new field.

Since it is a new field it is understandable that you didn't know about it. What is driving the field is the ability to make the sort of sensitive measurements needed can be done more easily than it was in the past. In the past we accepted statements such as

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_atomic_mass

This value is the mean value of atomic weights of a number of "normal samples" of the element in question.

and ignored the later part of the sentence 'of a number of "normal samples" of the element in question' in practice. The existence of normal sample implies the existence of abnormal samples. Here is a visual that should be interesting that depicts the isotopic variation of stable water bound oxygen through out the earth.

https://sites.google.com/site/westlabgroup/isoscapes-home

Recall the forgotten element oxygen? I wonder to what extent can we trace the origin of the greenhouse gases? The main argument for global warming appears to be a straight forward one. It is more sophisticated than the kindergarten explanations we have been given, but not so sophisticated that you need a Ph.D. in the field to understand it.

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Because we are not predisposed to believe climate change is caused by human greenhouse gas emissions, we are able to look at evidence the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) ignores. ... Some of these scientists have asked not to be named in NIPCC reports for fear of losing research grants and being blacklisted by professional journals.

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I went to the hyperlink you provided in post 102, specifically
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/Numbers/Math/Mathematical_Thinking/estimating_the_temperature.htm
I got the following message: "Due to the lapse in federal government funding, this website is not available." I suppose this will have to wait for another day.

Global warming has been delayed due to lack of Congressional funding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

DomKen: You really need to learn some basic science.

BenevolentM: Really?

DomKen: The O2 in CO2 is from the atmosphere a thoroughly mixed gas.

BenevolentM: No it isn't. It isn't all that black and white. Earlier you denied that uneven variations in stable isotopes exist. It takes time for a gas to even out and once evened out interesting results are still possible because the distribution won't be random. You are equivocating. A random distribution will be achieved in one sense, but not in another. An example should help. Take a bowl full of M&Ms that are brown in color and another that is red in color and mix them together thoroughly. If the brown colored M&Ms were to disappear leaving the red M&Ms frozen in space, the distribution of the red M&Ms would be random. Likewise, for the brown M&Ms. If the bowl of brown M&Ms was twice as large as the bowl filled with red M&Ms the relationship between the brown M&Ms and red M&Ms would not be random because the odds of encountering a brown M&M would be twice as great as the chance you would encounter a red M&M.