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The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 6:52:56 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		With the plethora of posts blaming those nasty republicans, I thought this the perfect opportunity to flip the tables.


Suppose you had a political foe that you needed to pass a bill.
Like say - the republicans. And the bill would be funding for your *favorite* piece of crap er, legislation. (Obamacare)

You might think that you might try to sweet talk them into it. You might try to persuade them into it. You might try to offer them incentives.

But Big daddy obama knows better. "I don't have to give them a thing" says he.
"I don't have to negotiate one whit."

Not that the Senate was any better. You know - the senators who didn't show up for a conference committee.

And just to double down, I'm going to call them terrorists.


You know, we haven't had negotiations with Iran in .. what 30 years?
But apparently Iranians (you know, those muslim laptdogs that want to destroy Israel and pray for death for the great satan)
is preferable to republicans.

Who knew...?




< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 10/1/2013 6:53:38 PM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:04:56 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Jon Stewart tore apart Republicans over threatening to shut the government down over Obamacare, using it to claim the GOP doesn’t really care about the Constitution that much to begin with, mocking their concern that Obamacare is “the end of America as we know it for reasons no one is able to clearly explain!

Stewart walked through how Obamacare was already upheld as constitutional, and offered a simple analogy: when football teams lose, they don’t say “If you don’t give us 25 points on Monday, we will shut down the fucking NFL!” He decried this “utter insanity” and berated the media for thinking both sides are equally at blame here, likening Republicans to an “asshole causing a head-on collision” on the highway.”

Stewart ended by calling out the GOP for the talking point that Obama negotiates with Iran but not them.

“You’re not helping yourself if it turns out that President Barack Obama can made a deal with the most intransigent, hardline, unreasonable, totalitarian mullahs in the world, but not with Republicans, maybe he’s not the problem!”

Watch the video below, via Comedy Central: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-shreds-gop-over-obamacare-utter-insanity-its-a-fcking-law/

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:10:32 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:12:18 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		WTF?

Obama knows he has the upper hand. The previous shutdown killed the GOP's image. The establishment Republicans have no stomach for the fight that the radicals have put them into.

Obama knows that he doesn't need to compromise on anything, particularly with his ACA baby. That, for better or worse, will be his legacy.

The GOP has stupidly shifted the topic from the ACA, which is not tremendously popular, to the shutdown itself, which is going to drown out any dissatisfaction with the ACA.

I'll admit that calling the GOP terrorists is counterproductive and nasty, but you err in thinking that Obama needs the GOP to pass the bill. He doesn't - he just needs to wait for them to cave. And the longer they futz around, the more intransigent both sides look, but so far indications are that the GOP will take more flak than the Dems. In short, Obama has no need to compromise.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.



No way. That'd be a whole additional year of the GOP pulling more stunts. They've done everything they could to derail ACA, and they'll keep at it even after it's implemented. Delaying it would invite more theatrics.

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 10/1/2013 7:14:03 PM >

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:12:50 PM   
blckmailedthroat


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/17/2013
Status: offline 		The Senate voted to go to conference on the budget under regular order 18 times, when the government wouldn't be shut down during the conference. Republicans rejected all 18 invitations.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:16:11 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.


Is that the normal process for amending a law that was passed by Congress, signed by the President, and upheld by Congress?

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:17:44 PM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.

Absolutely! They could have... which is funny considering Obama has already said aspects were going to be delayed. So why rush? Hmm.. lets think about that.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:19:14 PM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.


Is that the normal process for amending a law that was passed by Congress, signed by the President, and upheld by Congress?


Whats considered normal in regards to our government?

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:21:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		FR

By an interesting coincidence, I got the paperwork for my annual benefit enrollment at work today. The healthcare plan we've been on the last 5 years is going up $153 a month.

So much for, if you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Thank God my wife is with a company that has less than 50 employees. Having her hours chopped by 25% would be a killer.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to blckmailedthroat)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:28:43 PM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

By an interesting coincidence, I got the paperwork for my annual benefit enrollment at work today. The healthcare plan we've been on the last 5 years is going up $153 a month.

So much for, if you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Thank God my wife is with a company that has less than 50 employees. Having her hours chopped by 25% would be a killer.


Ive had several friends relay the same message... but dont ya know, it wouldve went up anyway. All coincidence.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:38:08 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.


Is that the normal process for amending a law that was passed by Congress, signed by the President, and upheld by Congress?


Well, yes. You see the House of Reps has no Constitutional directive or obligation to fund a program that they do not see as worthy of funding.

The Senate is likewise not obliged to pass the bill either. Or Mr. Obama obliged to sign a bill passed by the two groups.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 7:44:02 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
quote:

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.

Is that the normal process for amending a law that was passed by Congress, signed by the President, and upheld by Congress?


I'm going to assume you meant "upheld by the Supreme Court."

The Supreme Court held that the penalty for not having health insurance is a tax and is Constitutional as a tax.

There will be more legal battles for the ACA, and I'm figuring at least one more will get to the Supreme Court.

Edited to actually answer your question.

This is not about amending the law. This is about getting rid of it. Is this "normal?" If, by "normal," you mean typical, then, no, it is not normal. If you are asking if this is allowed to happen under rules of the US Government, then, yes, it is normal. The reason it's not typical is mostly due to the particular legislation. If this would have been something minor and narrow, it likely wouldn't have gone this way. But, Republicans don't like it and they were elected with repealing it as a major plank in their platform. Democrats want it (even if it's only wanted as a "first step" towards single payer). I can only assume they ran on a platform that included passing the law (before it was passed) and/or keeping the law (after it was passed).

< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 10/1/2013 7:48:47 PM >

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 8:28:28 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:
Stewart ended by calling out the GOP for the talking point that Obama negotiates with Iran but not them.

“You’re not helping yourself if it turns out that President Barack Obama can made a deal with the most intransigent, hardline, unreasonable, totalitarian mullahs in the world, but not with Republicans, maybe he’s not the problem!”


(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 9:01:21 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

... Obamacare was already upheld as constitutional ...


First, let me say that I'm in agreement that the healthcare situation in the United States is broken. I'm not against fixing it, nor am I opposed to helping people have access to quality healthcare at an affordable price.

I remain unconvinced that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is the answer, however. I see far too many flaws that can lead to a train wreck. Nevertheless, I do understand that for those who felt something needed to be done immediately, it was about all that could be done under the circumstances.

That being said, I do wish to clarify this misconception quoted above. The Supreme Court did not uphold the ACA as constitutional. The Supreme Court reviews lawsuits; they did not in this case arbitrarily review the entire Act and declare it constitutional, but instead reviewed a decision made by the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals with regard to a suit that challenged the constitutionality of two facets of the Act: the individual mandate and the Medicaid expansion.

In a nutshell, the opinion is as follows:

With regard to the individual mandate, the Supreme Court determined that it is not a valid exercise of Congress' power under the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause as initially claimed by the Government. It could, however, be upheld under the Government's alternate claim that it was within Congress' power to lay and collect taxes. The penalty is not a penalty, but instead a tax.

This is (in small part) one of the reasons that some are so vehemently opposed to the Act. The Act was not sold to us as a new tax.

With regard to the Medicaid expansion, this was opined to be unconstitutional.

Another reason for opposition to the Act is that without compulsory expansion of Medicaid, the main purpose for foisting the Act upon the American peoples (providing coverage to the millions of uninsured) is un-accomplishable. In fact, the CBO estimates* that even after the Act goes into effect, 30 million will still be uninsured.

These two issues were the only ones reviewed. The Court specifically says, "We do not consider whether the Act embodies sound policies. That judgment is entrusted to the Nation's elected leaders. We ask only whether Congress has the power under the Constitution to enact the challenged provisions." (Emphasis added.)

Claiming the entire Act was upheld as constitutional because they were able to find a way to justify the individual mandate, is just as disingenuous as claiming the entire Act is unconstitutional because the Medicaid expansion was found to be unconstitutional.

You can read the entirety of the Court's opinions here*.

* Note that this link is a direct download in .pdf format.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/1/2013 9:06:46 PM >

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 9:10:26 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Bravo.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 9:12:53 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL:
Stewart ended by calling out the GOP for the talking point that Obama negotiates with Iran but not them.

“You’re not helping yourself if it turns out that President Barack Obama can made a deal with the most intransigent, hardline, unreasonable, totalitarian mullahs in the world, but not with Republicans, maybe he’s not the problem!”






Yeah, Jon Stewart is where I get all my political information too.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 9:22:34 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

WTF?

Obama knows he has the upper hand. The previous shutdown killed the GOP's image. The establishment Republicans have no stomach for the fight that the radicals have put them into.

Obama knows that he doesn't need to compromise on anything, particularly with his ACA baby. That, for better or worse, will be his legacy.

The GOP has stupidly shifted the topic from the ACA, which is not tremendously popular, to the shutdown itself, which is going to drown out any dissatisfaction with the ACA.

I'll admit that calling the GOP terrorists is counterproductive and nasty, but you err in thinking that Obama needs the GOP to pass the bill. He doesn't - he just needs to wait for them to cave. And the longer they futz around, the more intransigent both sides look, but so far indications are that the GOP will take more flak than the Dems. In short, Obama has no need to compromise.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Ya know. . . Mr. Obama and the Senate could have avoided the government shut down by agreeing to the House Bill, which did not defund Obamacare, merely delayed it.



No way. That'd be a whole additional year of the GOP pulling more stunts. They've done everything they could to derail ACA, and they'll keep at it even after it's implemented. Delaying it would invite more theatrics.


Completely disagree. If you want to peel off establishment republicans from libertarian republicans the way to do it is not call them terrorists.

Conventional wisdom is that most republicans are circling the wagons at this time. They didn't want a shutdown, but if they are going to be tarred as terrorists, might as well drink the koolaid.

A great deal actually depends on the next few days. If Republicans keep making efforts to pass the bills - the media - even if they hate the republicans - will actually report it.

Its pretty potent to go to the senior citizens and say... we passed a law to continue your benefits - with no strings.
The democrats vetoed it.

Pretty potent to go to the head start children and say - we passed an extension to head start. The democrats vetoed it.

There are a bunch of whimpy republicans - King, for example. But face it - now that the military have been made whole, most of the rest of those affected are democratic constituents.

Plus - Obama has proven pretty inept in dealing. He's shot himself in the foot saying he doesn't need to negotiate.
He's shot himself in the foot calling the republicans terrorists, and he's shot himself in the foot when he had the opportunity to allow those vets to visit the memorial - and chose not to. Unforced errors.

Mere symbolism - and most people wont know anything about these things - but those vets and their families know.
It was a republican that crossed the barricades for them...

Exactly why are national parks closed, anyway? Seems like if the govt wanted to they could leave access to the views open, available, and free.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 9:26:09 PM   
Esinn


Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		The government shut down is a fucking joke. So is anyone from either side who thinks it is a good or bad idea. The tax collectors, speech writers, spinsters, bullshiters, war mongers, drone operators and surveillance state remains in full effect. Meanwhile tourist spots, parks, museums and other things are shut down. Anyone making 100k + is typically fine. While tens of thousands of "civilians" suffer - less taxes, less purchases and action for your towns/neighborhoods. Congress has a 10% approval rating. No matter whose side you are on you know our government is a worthless pile of shit - 10%. Historically it has not been over 25% in the last 5-6 decades or longer.

The good news, hopefully the people forced to work without pay, or go home without pay. They will seriously consider their career path and learn how few fucks their government gives about them.

This my party is better, they are better, he said, they said, finger wagging diffusion of blame or responsibility - it gets old. Everyone knows it. Even presidents when they leave office typically have a 40% of less approval rating.

_____________________________

Let's break the law

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RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 11:31:20 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, time to explain the problem to all the apparently dumb conservatives on here and in the nation.

Lets for the sake of this argument assume the following: The Democrats control the House and the Republicans the Senate and the White House. The Democrats also have five of the nine justice positions on the US Supreme Court. Basically the total reverse of things right now.

Democrats keep pushing a bill to the Senate that EVERYONE knows will fail. They do this many, many, MANY times to score political points with those back home. To say they are 'working hard' to revoke a law that most Americans disagree with. Sounds pretty much the reverse of what we have now, right? Go, and what are they demanding the Republicans do in order to get the issues settled without a shutdown? Revoke the 2nd Amendment. That's right, simple and easy thing to do. The law has been used in all sorts of ways, most of them not with the country's best interest in mind.

That is the simplest translation for you conservatives. Republicans in that example would NEVER do such a thing; so why should the Democrats revoke the ACA? Go ahead, give all the B.S. answers and thus show your all hypocrites! What if the Democrats came back in reality, agreeing to defund the ACA but in return Republicans had to revoke the 2nd amendment. Then placed their hand out and said "deal?". I myself do not wish the 2nd to be revoked. I am using it as an example that most of you feel is a needed concept within the nation. Well, liberals feel health care access for all Americans is a needed concept as well.


(in reply to Esinn)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The shutdown all the democrats fault... - 10/1/2013 11:43:13 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Ok, time to explain the problem to all the apparently dumb conservatives on here and in the nation.

Lets for the sake of this argument assume the following: The Democrats control the House and the Republicans the Senate and the White House. The Democrats also have five of the nine justice positions on the US Supreme Court. Basically the total reverse of things right now.

Democrats keep pushing a bill to the Senate that EVERYONE knows will fail. They do this many, many, MANY times to score political points with those back home. To say they are 'working hard' to revoke a law that most Americans disagree with. Sounds pretty much the reverse of what we have now, right? Go, and what are they demanding the Republicans do in order to get the issues settled without a shutdown? Revoke the 2nd Amendment. That's right, simple and easy thing to do. The law has been used in all sorts of ways, most of them not with the country's best interest in mind.

That is the simplest translation for you conservatives. Republicans in that example would NEVER do such a thing; so why should the Democrats revoke the ACA? Go ahead, give all the B.S. answers and thus show your all hypocrites! What if the Democrats came back in reality, agreeing to defund the ACA but in return Republicans had to revoke the 2nd amendment. Then placed their hand out and said "deal?". I myself do not wish the 2nd to be revoked. I am using it as an example that most of you feel is a needed concept within the nation. Well, liberals feel health care access for all Americans is a needed concept as well.




I'll explain simply.

The second amendment is a constitutional right, enshrined in the bill of rights. It can't be repealed except by constitutional amendment.

The ACA was crappy legislation passed without a single republican vote, using a highly suspect "deemed to have passed" mechanism, on top of bribes used to secure passage (the Louisiana purchase), and a suspect Byrd droppings ruling that was, to put it mildly, charitable.

We get that you liberals want to force a bill down the throats of every other american.

We ain't swallowing.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 20
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