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RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 6:57:01 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Is it any wonder people on the left have doubts about the increasingly powerful far rights commitment to the rule of law and the Constitution?


Don't forget the ammo hording.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 7:01:00 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Then you'll have to wait for the next generation. The revolution already happened for this one.



I have to agree here. Don't like it, but I do agree.



AUTHOR: Benjamin Franklin (1706–90)

QUOTATION: “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

ATTRIBUTION: The response is attributed to BENJAMIN FRANKLIN—at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation—in the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention.

McHenry’s notes were first published in The American Historical Review, vol. 11, 1906, and the anecdote on p. 618 reads: “A lady asked Dr. Franklin Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy. A republic replied the Doctor if you can keep it.” When McHenry’s notes were included in The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, ed. Max Farrand, vol. 3, appendix A, p. 85 (1911, reprinted 1934), a footnote stated that the date this anecdote was written is uncertain.



We, the People - Had to open it to see what was in it.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 8:46:33 AM   
slavekate80


Posts: 362
Joined: 7/4/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Um, there is a RELIGIOUS CONSCIENCE EXEMPTION.


There are many other exemptions, too. One is for people too poor to afford any of the insurance options offered (many will qualify for Medicaid, but not all), being homeless, or being without coverage for less than 3 months. Most people who genuinely can't afford even basic health insurance through the exchanges or otherwise have a very compelling reason not to get it will be able to dodge the tax. Of course, for those whose problem is financial hardship, that's only a little help: "You have to go without health care, but at least we won't charge you extra for not being able to get any, because we're so nice."

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 10:16:54 AM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Larry Clayman, founder of Judicial Watch:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/obamas-reckoning-is-here/

Does that read like a reasonable man just interested in keeping politicians honest as he is frequently portrayed?

Now for the truly scary:
Rick Joyner, a major figure in the New Apostolic Reformation movement which is an extreme right wing evangelical dominionist movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0X7oHMASDY

So we have 2 rather prominent fringe right wingers. One is calling for a revolt and street demonstrations to overthrow the government and the other is straight up asking for a military coup in the US.

Is it any wonder people on the left have doubts about the increasingly powerful far rights commitment to the rule of law and the Constitution?


1. We are no longer a nation of laws, because laws apply to everyone. Which, they dont. They certainly dont apply to senators or congressman.


You think the laws don't apply to Congress members? So John Boehner or Harry Reid can go shoot a guy in the street and not get arrested? Really?

(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 10:23:34 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
You think the laws don't apply to Congress members? So John Boehner or Harry Reid can go shoot a guy in the street and not get arrested? Really?



Your strawman does not invalidate that the laws, which I interpret as the whole body, are not applicable to everyone. For example, Congress is exempt from insider trading which would land you or I in jail. I'll leave it to you to look it up.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 11:56:03 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Um, there is a RELIGIOUS CONSCIENCE EXEMPTION.


May I guide you to scopes, which contains the text: http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/exemptions.asp

So yes, if you don't get any social security benefits, and are a member of a recognized sect in existence since 1950 you can get an exemption.
But if you are a right to life catholic - you are now required to purchase insurance that funds abortion.

And please, call a spade a spade. The fig leaf of 'separate funding' is a fig leaf that confuses no one.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 12:07:28 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Yeah, well frankly just as crazy as you view the right wingers, I never thought I'd see the day that we'd be taxed for not doing buying something.


Actually, DK has usually been a very stable individual in many of the threads I have observed over time. And btw, your not taxed, your FINED for not getting health coverage under the ACA. Have you actually READ the Affordable Care Act yet? I've asked you just about fifteen times now and never gotten a straight answer from you. The US Supreme Court interprets the action of not getting a health plan as a tax; but this is the same group that says Corporations are people too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As crazy as you view the right wingers, I never thought my government would require me to buy insurance thats against my religious principles.


And what religious principles are those?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As crazy as you view right wingers, I'd never thought I'd see an NSA collecting billions of hits of metadata every day - on AMERICANS.


Actually you have never seen such a thing. Other people have stated in simple terms for you to understand. Do you know what the NSA actually does? Here is a LINK to help you with that last question. I'm willing to bet if the whole story came out during a Republican President's term, not a single conservative would be bitching about it. I do not like what the NSA has done, but unlike you, I understand the reasoning for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As crazy as you view rightwingers, I'm disgusted to have president that lied and whose political calculus cold bloodedly consigned 4 americans to death.


An yet your 'OK' with the previous president that had dozens of US Americans killed and twice that in injuries of the 13 Embassy attacks that took place during 2002-2007. Oh yeah, I'm not counting the hundreds of other people that were injured or killed during those same attacks, even those they are just as important as the four individuals that die in Benghazi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As crazy as you view right wingers, I never imagined a president that would demonize americans that believe in a balanced budget.


The President has never demonized anyone wishing for a balanced budget. The same however can not be said of the multitude of conservatives in this country. A balanced budget is one in which dollars coming in equal those going out. Of course, you have never stopped to consider just how much a $100 Billion in US Government spending buys in US Jobs, have you? An that we spend some odd of 32 units of $100 Billion each year. That's about 750,000-950,000 jobs depending on the industry(s) affected by a particular set amount of $100 Billion unit spending. And the jobs are not all $144K/year but much, much lower. And that the lion's share of the unit goes towards the private sector. The least amount towards government jobs. And the third group that get the money? Those jobs that are 'down stream' from the first two groups.

Let me just say this, its very complicated material that your mindlessly juggling around. I would be all for cutting spending as you do, if I was ignorant of the material I know about what goes into one of those $100 Billion units. It really is not in the best interests of the nation. So a balanced budget (and this is the super, ultra, extremely, simple answer here) would take the form of making some budget cuts and increasing taxes (namely removing the Bush era tax cuts). No one likes this option, as its the middle ground approach that is taking things into careful consideration. I believe I could explain the whole thing to you in person. Would take me about an hour to do. Not because your stupid, but the material is so fraking complicated!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Or a President that takes blatantly unconstitutional actions - such as interim appointments while the Senate is in Session.


Or a President that holds criminals against their will, without a lawyer, or see their family while imprisoned? An that they are tortured the whole time and defined as 'enemy combatants' because being held in a US Court would have been unconstitutional, or identifiying them under their correct heading of POW would have forced the administration to follow many, many treaties? Yeah, the Republican President did that with impunity. That President also used the Patriot Act to spy on the whole of America, and yet you hold him to no level of accountability or responsibility.

President Obama is a constitutional scholar. He graduated from Harvard University with a J.D. at the top of his class. Do you have any idea how well one needs to know the underpinning of law and the level of competition at Harvard University to get a magna cum laude for a J.D.? No, you don't. If you did, you would treat the man with a bit more respect and consideration than you do at current.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I never thought the loonie left would go so far as to destroy our energy infrastructure.


You really do not understand the infrastructure for energy currently in this country, do you? Much of the hardware across the nation is using 1950's and 1960's systems; hardly 'modern' equipment. There are tens of millions of patches crisscrossing the entire nation from one ocean to the other and from Canada to Mexico. The problems that abound range from 'mild lose of energy' to staggering projects needed to restore a piece of land damaged by faulty equipment. While your memory of US History is unsurprisingly limited, one of the mechanisms in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) called for using funding to repair and replace the nation's aged energy infrastructure. It was going to happen, but many Republican controlled states used the money instead to offset their dwindling budgets to give the appearance that the recession had not effected their state or cities. Its all right there in the history books at most creditable universities.

Most conservatives have been against the idea of updating the nation's energy infrastructure to 2013 on the silly belief that it would help US Labor Unions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Or that a major banking scandal - and the administration in power would cull virtually every economic player from the firms involved.


I seem to recall my own Senator putting regulations and tools to prevent what the financial sector did from happening again. Elizabeth Warren, you might have heard of her. Yeah, she's been finding an uphill battle from conservative Republican/Tea Party folks ever since she got to Congress. Your also going to blame the President for events that took place BEFORE he was even sworn into office? Or that he should be responsible for the actions of all the conservatives and Republican/Tea Party folks that tried to make him a one term president? Yeah, he got that second term, but your sacrificing the nation's economic freedom is a devastating blow to us as a nation. Funny how you cant owe up to that, eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So you don't like the right. We get it. We don't like you either.


I do not have any problems with the right. We disagree on things at times, but at the end of the day, we sit down and watch fireworks on the 4th of July. We sing carols during the winter holidays. Share drinks to welcome in the New Year. And attend many of the holidays for the veterans. When shit hits the fan we all work together to get things accomplished. They agree with me on something's and I agree with them on others; its called 'the art of the compromise'. Now extremist right wingers I feel have damaged this nation in a number of different ways. They are often ignorant, foolish, loud mouth, over weight, racists, clueless and in dire need of therapy. You want to take issue with someone fraking up the nation? Take it out on them!


I'm going to ignore most of the insulting, ignorant crap in your message.
But then I find I have nothing left to respond to.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 12:41:51 PM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Larry Clayman, founder of Judicial Watch:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/obamas-reckoning-is-here/

Does that read like a reasonable man just interested in keeping politicians honest as he is frequently portrayed?

Now for the truly scary:
Rick Joyner, a major figure in the New Apostolic Reformation movement which is an extreme right wing evangelical dominionist movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0X7oHMASDY

So we have 2 rather prominent fringe right wingers. One is calling for a revolt and street demonstrations to overthrow the government and the other is straight up asking for a military coup in the US.

Is it any wonder people on the left have doubts about the increasingly powerful far rights commitment to the rule of law and the Constitution?


1. We are no longer a nation of laws, because laws apply to everyone. Which, they dont. They certainly dont apply to senators or congressman.


You think the laws don't apply to Congress members? So John Boehner or Harry Reid can go shoot a guy in the street and not get arrested? Really?


No, I dont think that.

I think they can steal money/bounce checks and not be liable.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:04:01 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Yeah, well frankly just as crazy as you view the right wingers, I never thought I'd see the day that we'd be taxed for not doing buying something.


Actually, DK has usually been a very stable individual in many of the threads I have observed over time. And btw, your not taxed, your FINED for not getting health coverage under the ACA. Have you actually READ the Affordable Care Act yet? I've asked you just about fifteen times now and never gotten a straight answer from you. The US Supreme Court interprets the action of not getting a health plan as a tax; but this is the same group that says Corporations are people too.




So which is it? A tax, as per SCOTUS, or a fine?

I agree, SCOTUS is irrational. As irrational as SCOTUS was on the 16th amendment in its contortions as to make it constitutional.

It boggles the mind.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:08:32 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
It is a free country and you are free to choose, call it a tax, when you are teabagging, and a fine when you are libertarianing.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:12:40 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline
I knew 3 years ago that the Teabaggers were no good for this country. A small minority wants to hold the entire nation and the global economy "hostage" because they don't believe everyone has a right to healthcare. What a joke. An embarrassment.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:21:27 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I knew 3 years ago that the Teabaggers were no good for this country. A small minority wants to hold the entire nation and the global economy "hostage" because they don't believe everyone has a right to healthcare. What a joke. An embarrassment.



The bolded is the operative to which they speak.

Just say'n.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Charles6682)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:32:20 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I knew 3 years ago that the Teabaggers were no good for this country. A small minority wants to hold the entire nation and the global economy "hostage" because they don't believe everyone has a right to healthcare. What a joke. An embarrassment.



The bolded is the operative to which they speak.

Just say'n.

No problem. Any astute observer noted long ago the the United State of America is the land where you are entitled to all the real estate, justice and health care you can afford.

That the Teabaggers are as oblivious as any Right Winger of the completely unsustainable cost increases built into the present US 'health care' system says all that needs saying why they are toxic to the general prosperity and welfare of the country.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:34:26 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I'm going to ignore most of the insulting, ignorant crap in your message.
But then I find I have nothing left to respond to.


Ah yes, don't have a leg to stand on in the argument. Can not offer up one reply in defense as the arguments were pretty damn good. Why not be a gentleman/lady and simply concede defeat? That would have been the noble way out. I would have respected that. You made several arguments and ideas that no sane, intelligent, reasonably educated and wise individual could have defended.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:40:58 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Yeah, well frankly just as crazy as you view the right wingers, I never thought I'd see the day that we'd be taxed for not doing buying something.

Actually, DK has usually been a very stable individual in many of the threads I have observed over time. And btw, your not taxed, your FINED for not getting health coverage under the ACA. Have you actually READ the Affordable Care Act yet? I've asked you just about fifteen times now and never gotten a straight answer from you. The US Supreme Court interprets the action of not getting a health plan as a tax; but this is the same group that says Corporations are people too.

So which is it? A tax, as per SCOTUS, or a fine?

I agree, SCOTUS is irrational. As irrational as SCOTUS was on the 16th amendment in its contortions as to make it constitutional.

It boggles the mind.


How do we want to define 'tax' and 'fine'? An, yes, I mean this in all seriousness. If I had to take a guess, it would be a 'fine' as originally intended. Most laws that do not imprison you usually have a fine attached to it. That is the penalty for not following the structure of laws a society has agreed upon. Were as a 'tax' is attached to some action but it is not a penalty for some wrong done in society. But not paying your income taxes after you have produce gross profit WILL get you fined (and maybe jail time).


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:46:29 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I'm going to ignore most of the insulting, ignorant crap in your message.
But then I find I have nothing left to respond to.


Ah yes, don't have a leg to stand on in the argument. Can not offer up one reply in defense as the arguments were pretty damn good. Why not be a gentleman/lady and simply concede defeat? That would have been the noble way out. I would have respected that. You made several arguments and ideas that no sane, intelligent, reasonably educated and wise individual could have defended.


Nonsense. To choose not to engage in a debate with you in which I am continually mocked or insulted says nothing of the strength of my argument.
It only says things about your character.

Good day.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 1:50:25 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Yeah, well frankly just as crazy as you view the right wingers, I never thought I'd see the day that we'd be taxed for not doing buying something.

Actually, DK has usually been a very stable individual in many of the threads I have observed over time. And btw, your not taxed, your FINED for not getting health coverage under the ACA. Have you actually READ the Affordable Care Act yet? I've asked you just about fifteen times now and never gotten a straight answer from you. The US Supreme Court interprets the action of not getting a health plan as a tax; but this is the same group that says Corporations are people too.

So which is it? A tax, as per SCOTUS, or a fine?

I agree, SCOTUS is irrational. As irrational as SCOTUS was on the 16th amendment in its contortions as to make it constitutional.

It boggles the mind.


How do we want to define 'tax' and 'fine'? An, yes, I mean this in all seriousness. If I had to take a guess, it would be a 'fine' as originally intended. Most laws that do not imprison you usually have a fine attached to it. That is the penalty for not following the structure of laws a society has agreed upon. Were as a 'tax' is attached to some action but it is not a penalty for some wrong done in society. But not paying your income taxes after you have produce gross profit WILL get you fined (and maybe jail time).





Roberts had to come in under the taxing authority because the fine would be excessive and unconstitutional. Congress said it's a fine, but Roberts said that for judicial purposes it's regarded as a tax. Begs the idiot question, but the question it is - When you pay income tax, are you actually being fined for making in excess of that which would garner no Thuggery Payment?

sarcastic

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 10/2/2013 1:51:28 PM >


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 2:04:02 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Wergeld is and always was a cost of business.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 3:21:22 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How do we want to define 'tax' and 'fine'? An, yes, I mean this in all seriousness. If I had to take a guess, it would be a 'fine' as originally intended.


The only way the individual mandate could be upheld as constitutional, was for it to be considered a tax. If you believe that you're smarter than our Supreme Court Justices and feel your arguments that it is truly a fine would prevail, then you would likely be responsible for the downfall of the ACA. It cannot survive without the individual mandate.

The Constitution grants Congress the power to “regulate Commerce.” Art. I, §8, cl. 3 (emphasis added). The power to regulate commerce presupposes the existence of commercial activity to be regulated. This Court’s precedent reflects this understanding: As expansive as this Court’s cases construing the scope of the commerce power have been, they uniformly describe the power as reaching “activity." The individual mandate, however, does not regulate existing commercial activity.” It instead compels individuals to become active in commerce by purchasing a product, on the ground that their failure to do so affects interstate commerce.

Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority. Congress already possesses expansive power to regulate what people do. Upholding the Affordable Care Act under the Commerce Clause would give Congress the same license to regulate what people do not do. The Framers knew the difference between doing something and doing nothing. They gave Congress the power to regulate commerce, not to compel it. Ignoring that distinction would undermine the principle that the Federal Government is a government of limited and enumerated powers. The individual mandate thus cannot be sustained under Congress’s power to “regulate Commerce.”

Nor can the individual mandate be sustained under the Necessary and Proper Clause as an integral part of the Affordable Care Act’s other reforms. Each of this Court’s prior cases upholding laws under that Clause involved exercises of authority derivative of, and in service to, a granted power. The individual mandate, by contrast, vests Congress with the extraordinary ability to create the necessary predicate to the exercise of an enumerated power and draw within its regulatory scope those who would otherwise be outside of it. Even if the individual mandate is “necessary” to the Affordable Care Act’s other reforms, such an expansion of federal power is not a “proper” means for making those reforms effective.


You can read the entirety of the Court's opinions here.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Just how crazy are the crazies? - 10/2/2013 3:26:20 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Um, there is a RELIGIOUS CONSCIENCE EXEMPTION.


May I guide you to scopes, which contains the text: http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/exemptions.asp

So yes, if you don't get any social security benefits, and are a member of a recognized sect in existence since 1950 you can get an exemption.
But if you are a right to life catholic - you are now required to purchase insurance that funds abortion.

And please, call a spade a spade. The fig leaf of 'separate funding' is a fig leaf that confuses no one.

I missed where it required the devout Catholics to have abortions.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 40
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