RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care

RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (Full Version)

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Apocalypso -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 9:51:28 AM)
Anecdote is also not the singular form of "data".

mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 9:56:01 AM)
Useful datum.

eulero83 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 10:36:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do you need health care, to live, in the absence of disease? No. You do not. Health care can help you live longer even with the presence of disease. "Lack of healthcare" is recognised as a cause of death by the US Institute of Medicine, as has been pointed out to you previously. "The New York Times calls the IOM the United States' "most esteemed and authoritative adviser on issues of health and medicine, and its reports can transform medical thinking around the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Medicine Do you really think that you are correct and that the "most esteemed and authoritative" medical body in the US is wrong? Yes. While I was in college, I went to the doctor less than 20 times in those 4 years. When I was attending for a Master's Degree, I didn't go once. How am I not dead? you are lucky... or not unlucky if you will... but you are using a single case to demostrate something about an aleatory event... I hope one day to play poker with you.

eulero83 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 10:51:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The 20% of the premiums that aren't going directly to health care expenditures include employee pay, profits, and administrative costs (buildings, paper, advertising, etc.). IIRC, insurance profit margins are under 5%, so 95% of the premiums gained are spent running the business. just edit in your mind my post changing "profit" with "profit and administrative cost", it's just pointless, the individual spend 25% more than the actual costs quote: If the cost of each procedure and service was lower, the cost, to an individual for whatever health issue, would be lower. This could lead to fewer people actually needing insurance to afford the care. It would also lower the amount of money an insurance company would have to pay out, reducing the amount of premiums necessary to cover, making insurance more affordable, too. Even if there weren't any fewer people buying insurance, it would still be cheaper than it is today, if the cost of each procedure/service was lower. how much lower do you think they can be? do you think there won't be procedures that just for pure expences will not be affordable by a middle class worker? Do you mean that you think it's better ask a loan to a bank than pay an insurance? What if you'll need a dialysis after the surgery will you hope for a charity to have pity on you?

DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 11:46:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The 20% of the premiums that aren't going directly to health care expenditures include employee pay, profits, and administrative costs (buildings, paper, advertising, etc.). IIRC, insurance profit margins are under 5%, so 95% of the premiums gained are spent running the business. just edit in your mind my post changing "profit" with "profit and administrative cost", it's just pointless, the individual spend 25% more than the actual costs quote: If the cost of each procedure and service was lower, the cost, to an individual for whatever health issue, would be lower. This could lead to fewer people actually needing insurance to afford the care. It would also lower the amount of money an insurance company would have to pay out, reducing the amount of premiums necessary to cover, making insurance more affordable, too. Even if there weren't any fewer people buying insurance, it would still be cheaper than it is today, if the cost of each procedure/service was lower. how much lower do you think they can be? do you think there won't be procedures that just for pure expences will not be affordable by a middle class worker? Do you mean that you think it's better ask a loan to a bank than pay an insurance? What if you'll need a dialysis after the surgery will you hope for a charity to have pity on you? Insurance will be cheaper, too. Dialysis will be cheaper. Heart surgery will be cheaper. The only way to lower costs in the US - at this time - is by getting rid of the excess costs within the system that makes a procedure high. There is going to be a fight in the US over health care and the Constitution. Don't simply listen to me or those that oppose what I'm saying. Just wait. It's going to happen. Once it's all worked out, the US will outspend every other country for health care, and we won't have results that are comparable to the amount we spend.

mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 11:49:16 AM)
quote: There is going to be a fight in the US over health care and the Constitution. Nah, not so much we have done some of it, and when all is said and done, the congress can make laws (its there in the constitution) and they did. Might be some frivolous challenges to minor aspects time to time, but they pretty much are already fizzled out before the case comes before the court. quote: Once it's all worked out, the US will outspend every other country for health care, and we won't have results that are comparable to the amount we spend. Well, we are there now, ain't we, pretty much?

DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 11:59:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do you need health care, to live, in the absence of disease? No. You do not. Health care can help you live longer even with the presence of disease. "Lack of healthcare" is recognised as a cause of death by the US Institute of Medicine, as has been pointed out to you previously. "The New York Times calls the IOM the United States' "most esteemed and authoritative adviser on issues of health and medicine, and its reports can transform medical thinking around the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Medicine Do you really think that you are correct and that the "most esteemed and authoritative" medical body in the US is wrong? Yes. While I was in college, I went to the doctor less than 20 times in those 4 years. When I was attending for a Master's Degree, I didn't go once. How am I not dead? you are lucky... or not unlucky if you will... but you are using a single case to demostrate something about an aleatory event... I hope one day to play poker with you. Lucky? Not really. My age played an awful lot into it. I was somewhat active and didn't abuse my body too much, either. Fact is, I'm not dead, even though I didn't use any health care. If "lack of health care" causes death, then I should be dead. How much health care does one need to not die? If it's lack of health care that causes death, then there has to be some amount that will prevent death. In the absence of disease, lack of health care will not result in death. In the presence of disease, having health care will only extend your life (if effective). That's it. Lack of health care only means it isn't there to extend your life (by reducing the disease's ability to kill you). That's it.

DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 12:02:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: There is going to be a fight in the US over health care and the Constitution. Nah, not so much we have done some of it, and when all is said and done, the congress can make laws (its there in the constitution) and they did. Might be some frivolous challenges to minor aspects time to time, but they pretty much are already fizzled out before the case comes before the court. You are usually a lot more imaginative, MN. I'm certain there will be more SCOTUS cases over this. quote: quote: Once it's all worked out, the US will outspend every other country for health care, and we won't have results that are comparable to the amount we spend. Well, we are there now, ain't we, pretty much? Sure are. What's going to be next, then? We'll shave the difference down to only 75% more than everyone else instead of 100% more. Is that going to really solve anything? Sure as Hell won't.

mnottertail -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 12:04:17 PM)
I am very imaginative, but not hallucinatory, and while I think some cases will come, they look pretty frivolous to me, so the moronic cavils will not mount to the definition of a fight. It is pretty secure at the moment. As single payer national would be. That just lacks fuckin guts is all.

Politesub53 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 12:10:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Disease kills you. Health care heals you. Lack of health care does not kill. Disease kills. You need to sit down and have a rethink DS. If health care heals you, then lack of it certainly kills you. Your notion is akin to saying bobms only kill if you are hit by one. Preventative healthcare, such as early treatment can cure cancer. Nope, Polite. It is you that needs to rethink it. Do you need health care, to live, in the absence of disease? No. You do not. Health care can help you live longer even with the presence of disease. quote: Yes it is the cancer that kills you, along with not treating it. FFS this stuff isnt hard. Nope. Only the cancer is what kills you. You might die earlier without treatment, but it's still the cancer that is killing you. Do you die from cancer if you don't get treated for cancer? Only if you have cancer. I will not die from not getting health care for any specific disease in the absence of that disease. Oh FFS......Enough already. I wont die from bullet wounds unless I get hit by a bullet, even if I am in a war zone. I wont die from arson, unless I am asleep in a house set alight by arsonists and dont get out. Your points about cancer are absurd.

DesideriScuri -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 12:20:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Disease kills you. Health care heals you. Lack of health care does not kill. Disease kills. You need to sit down and have a rethink DS. If health care heals you, then lack of it certainly kills you. Your notion is akin to saying bobms only kill if you are hit by one. Preventative healthcare, such as early treatment can cure cancer. Nope, Polite. It is you that needs to rethink it. Do you need health care, to live, in the absence of disease? No. You do not. Health care can help you live longer even with the presence of disease. quote: Yes it is the cancer that kills you, along with not treating it. FFS this stuff isnt hard. Nope. Only the cancer is what kills you. You might die earlier without treatment, but it's still the cancer that is killing you. Do you die from cancer if you don't get treated for cancer? Only if you have cancer. I will not die from not getting health care for any specific disease in the absence of that disease. Oh FFS......Enough already. I wont die from bullet wounds unless I get hit by a bullet, even if I am in a war zone. I wont die from arson, unless I am asleep in a house set alight by arsonists and dont get out. Your points about cancer are absurd. No, that people actually believe that lack of health care causes death is what is absurd.

Politesub53 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 12:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri No, that people actually believe that lack of health care causes death is what is absurd. This comment is about the stupidest thing I have heard here in days. Are you really suggesting preventetive midicens works, but lack of it doesnt cause death. Repeating yourself over and over just makes you look silly. Read the link, from an unbiased source........Harvard Medical School. http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/09/17/us-usa-healthcare-deaths-idUSTRE58G6W520090917 It clearly states one person dies every twelve minutes from the US due to lack of health care.

Tkman117 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 12:59:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do you need health care, to live, in the absence of disease? No. You do not. Health care can help you live longer even with the presence of disease. "Lack of healthcare" is recognised as a cause of death by the US Institute of Medicine, as has been pointed out to you previously. "The New York Times calls the IOM the United States' "most esteemed and authoritative adviser on issues of health and medicine, and its reports can transform medical thinking around the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Medicine Do you really think that you are correct and that the "most esteemed and authoritative" medical body in the US is wrong? Yes. While I was in college, I went to the doctor less than 20 times in those 4 years. When I was attending for a Master's Degree, I didn't go once. How am I not dead? O.o the level of stupidity behind this statement is mind boggling.

Tkman117 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 1:06:32 PM)
From what I understand he's nitpicking at the details that something aside from healthcare does the killing, and that not having health care doesn't make the health care kill you. Either way it's a moronic argument to make. Yes, you die from something, but if the potential to be saved by health care exists and you lack the ability to have it, then ya, the lack of healthcare in tandem with whatever ailment you have originally will kill you. What he doesn't get is how health care is a life changer, that having it can save your life and on the flip side kill you if you don't have it. To DS, LACKING HEALTH CARE WILL ONLY KILL YOU IF YOU HAVE A TERMINAL ILLNESS, CONDITION, OR INJURY. WE ARE NOT SAYING BASIC HEALTH CARE WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE IN THE IMMEDIATE PRESENT, BUT IT DOES HELP PEOPLE LIVE MORE CONFORTABLE LIVES AND EVEN IN THE LONG RUN PROLONG THEIR LIVES.

AliceMajesty -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 2:37:24 PM)
I had knee surgery pretty much exactly a year ago. It was minor surgery, not urgent or emergency in any way, a simple knee surgery. I waited about a week. That's it. Yes, people wait, but usually it's not because the system is over-whelmed but rather because they need to wait for organs or such. I can't imagine anyone actually having to wait long for an urgent life-saving surgery, if someone died like that there would be a national outcry and many jobs would be lost. This is Sweden btw. And for my ambulance ride, emergency treatment, x-ray, MRI, surgery, medicine and one year of physical therapy I paid a total of 1100 SEK, that's about $150...

Yachtie -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 3:00:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 It clearly states one person dies every twelve minutes from the US due to lack of health care. It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the bottom.

eulero83 -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 3:07:31 PM)
DesideriScuri... I know active people that got cancer or had to ricover from strokes that luckly didn't killed them, there are congenital medical conditions, and most of the people just get old, I don't know if you plan to sucide at a certain age to not be a weight for society but otherwise you'll need more assistance, I just don't agree with this "living the moment and not caring for the future" phylosophy. I get you don't want to pay more for smokers and overweights but you are actually paying even more to not have them "steal" your health care. Second thing if you buy procedures in a free market the price is set by the market, if you think about moderating the prices by law you'll just have less health care facilities because many operators will invest the money in something different.

deathtothepixies -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 4:37:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri No, that people actually believe that lack of health care causes death is what is absurd. you have a brain ds, that much is obvious but I can not believe how wilfully obtuse you are being. Looking at your pic you clearly want to look like a big strong self sufficient guy, you can look after yourself etc etc but I suggest you calm down a bit and try to look at the bigger picture. Oh shit, ds, you've just lost your job. Fuck, I feel for you man, times are tough and you can't get another job. What's that? you've got some back pain? I've been there, hurts like hell doesn't it? Even less chance of getting another job now so you have to start using up your savings just to live. Oh no, seems like the back pain was just a symptom of something more serious, what happens next? Fuck all, your just another unlucky person who gets left by the wayside because you are suddenly of no use to the capitalistic American machine. Hope you don't feel that twinge because I wouldn't want that to happen to anyone. But it does doesn't it?

thompsonx -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 5:03:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Interesting. And if one does not have the cash? Then you wait your turn like the rest of us, as I said before its a price we pay for inclusivity..... I do hope the irony is not lost on you. Would that be the irony of the patient in the u.s. dying for lack of money while the patient in england only has to wait a bit and live or pay extra to go to the head of the line? Was that the irony you were referencing?

thompsonx -> RE: A question for Canadians, Brits and any other citizen of a country with nationalize health care (10/8/2013 5:12:33 PM)
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The only way to lower costs in the US - at this time - is by getting rid of the excess costs within the system that makes a procedure high. What exactly are those "excess costs"? There is going to be a fight in the US over health care and the Constitution. What the fuck would you know about the mother fucking constitution? You can't even name the enumerated powers you claim to believe in. Don't simply listen to me No one does Once it's all worked out, the US will outspend every other country for health care, We do now. That is why we are now having a discussion about socialised medicine or for profit health care.

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