RE: Race Play (Full Version)

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fucktoyprincess -> RE: Race Play (10/8/2013 5:27:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily


Hold on, hold on. Mooseman, can you please define what you mean by Race Play? Are you talking about having a play partner of a different race than your own, or interjecting a racial overtone into your play with a partner based on her race? My understanding of Race Play is an overemphasis on racial stereotyping - inclusive or exclusive of exaggerated behavior, mannerisms, name-calling, other acts of humiliation and/or degradation - in other words, racial role-playing. More in tangent with what fucktoyprincess was describing with the German Nazi/Jewish girl scenario in her earlier Post #16.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I've played with blacks, Caucasians, a Native American, a Latina, and an Asian. The only difference was that I got to practice my Spanish with the Latina.


You know, I feel that in the BDSM circles that I run in, the notion of "raceplay" is sort of outdated. The concept of dating outside one's ethnic, racial, religious background is fairly mainstream at this point, and I am sure DarkSteven and I are not the only ones to sample across the spectrum. So this play seems to me an archaic vestige of another, perhaps, misguided time.


Not the above. If this is about having a fetish toward other races or one in particular, then that is a racial fetish, not Race Play per se. Which is it? Or do you mean both?

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* * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *


Just to be clear, I would say that having EITHER a fetish towards other races or one in particular AND/OR engaging in role play that taps into racist sentiments are BOTH outmoded types of play.






fucktoyprincess -> RE: Race Play (10/8/2013 5:33:36 PM)

P.S. to my previous post - just to elaborate on why I consider both to be outmoded - I don't know of a single person who dates across the spectrum who engages in race play that taps into racist roles and roleplay. And I don't think that's a coincidence. If you are used to dealing with a range of people as just human beings, I don't think race based roleplay is going to be appealing.

If there is someone out there who truly dates across the spectrum (i.e., has full fledged relationships with people from a variety of backgrounds) AND also engages in racist based role play, I would really be curious to understand your perspective.




TigressLily -> RE: Race Play (10/8/2013 7:06:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I consider both to be outmoded - I don't know of a single person who dates across the spectrum who engages in race play that taps into racist roles and roleplay.


So do I and me neither, which helps clarify in my mind where you were coming from, but not what OP has in mind in formulating his question. You are much more tactful than I. My first post expresses how I feel about Racist Role-Playing/Racist Play. Furthermore, I can't begin to wrap my head around anyone wanting to bottom with real racists or getting turned on by the thought of being Topped by haters, then making an open invitation of it.

Based on what Roch read in OP's profile, which would make OP a switch not a Dom, I can't tell for sure where he's coming from until he is forthcoming with specifics.

_____________________________

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CaptR -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 6:07:28 AM)

There are many forms of "taboo" sex. The definition of each one rests solely on the interpretation of the practitioners. As long as consent is given freely and both parties understand the psychology and possible effects of their actions who's to say race play is wrong? I've dated women of differing ethnic backgrounds some of which very much enjoyed that type of interaction. We live a lifestyle where in some minds its acceptable to humiliate using descriptive sexual references when its offensive to others. As long as the parties involved are clear on the boundaries and no lack of respect drives the scene. Race play is as acceptable as any other consensual role play and can be quite exciting. I agree with the poster who stated no interaction should be based on color rather we should interact on much more involved and personal levels. I'll also reference the poster who used the Nazi/Jew example. It represents a forbidden area that in itself is exhilarating to the individual for their own reasons. We do live in an ever increasingly homogenized society and thankfully so but racial, religious and physical differences will always exist as will many other forms of diversification. One common thread though should be respect. Your mistress may beat you and use offensive language or your master may do the same uttering all forms of humiliating descriptions about your sexual urges/ moral standing. At the end of the scene /sexual encounter when the excitement is over who's to say what was right or wrong except the individuals involved? Its a very personal choice.



CaptR -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 6:25:23 AM)

I would also suggest there is quite a difference in "racist play" and "race play." In my opinion there is no room for non consensual play under any guise so I would assume the parties involved in either form would negotiate reasonable expectations and stick with them. As long as no laws are broken, no individual is used beyond their accepted parameters who among us in this lifestyle is really comfortable casting stones at personal choice?



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 7:02:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR

There are many forms of "taboo" sex. The definition of each one rests solely on the interpretation of the practitioners. As long as consent is given freely and both parties understand the psychology and possible effects of their actions who's to say race play is wrong? I've dated women of differing ethnic backgrounds some of which very much enjoyed that type of interaction. We live a lifestyle where in some minds its acceptable to humiliate using descriptive sexual references when its offensive to others. As long as the parties involved are clear on the boundaries and no lack of respect drives the scene. Race play is as acceptable as any other consensual role play and can be quite exciting. I agree with the poster who stated no interaction should be based on color rather we should interact on much more involved and personal levels. I'll also reference the poster who used the Nazi/Jew example. It represents a forbidden area that in itself is exhilarating to the individual for their own reasons. We do live in an ever increasingly homogenized society and thankfully so but racial, religious and physical differences will always exist as will many other forms of diversification. One common thread though should be respect. Your mistress may beat you and use offensive language or your master may do the same uttering all forms of humiliating descriptions about your sexual urges/ moral standing. At the end of the scene /sexual encounter when the excitement is over who's to say what was right or wrong except the individuals involved? Its a very personal choice.


I've bolded what I consider to be the crux of the issue. I am not here to disapprove of other adults' consensual play. My issue is whether racist play involves a psychology and effect that is inherently damaging irrespective of consent. And while we are all skirting around it, no one has come forward to say that this play is not damaging or enabling of a negative psyche. There is, btw, already research out there to show that submissive women are actually quite well-balanced relative to other women - i.e., that playing in D/s doesn't actually have a negative effect on self-esteem. I am not aware of any research on racist play that shows the equivalent. And racial issues being what they are, I am hard pressed to say that there are not negative effects of a sort that may be more than what people should reasonably be expected to handle. I'm sorry but I can't honestly condone play that feeds into self-loathing or hatefulness. I personally don't see that as a healthy expression of one's sexuality.

I would make the same comment about any other type of BDSM play. If people who engage in a particular activity are only drawn to it due to self-loathing and hatefulness, and engage in it to tap into and deepen those feelings - I think it is not psychologically healthy. Condoning consensual activity does not have to equate to condoning psychologically damaging play. I think there is a distinction and the distinction actually does matter. For the record most serial killers will also admit to the taking of another's life being "exhilarating" and exciting. I don't see that as the necessary benchmark to use to evaluate the usefulness of the activity per se. Motivators and consequences do matter. And while death is a clear demarcation point, obviously psychologically damaging play, while not the taking of a life, is a diminishing of someone's being even if the play seems "exhilarating". I just encourage people who enjoy this type of play to think carefully about their motivations and the consequences of their play on both themselves and their partners. I, myself, am not aware of a single BDSM couple (in a full-fledged relationship) that are into this kind of play. The only times I've heard people do it is more on a play session basis - and something about that very fact concerns me. Why don't long standing couples engage in this play? And if some of you do, again I would appreciate hearing from you about how you square your play with positive self-esteem. [sm=2cents.gif]



TigressLily -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 7:44:33 AM)


Racism is not a kink.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR

There are many forms of "taboo" sex. The definition of each one rests solely on the interpretation of the practitioners....

It represents a forbidden area that in itself is exhilarating to the individual for their own reasons....

Its a very personal choice.*




I am not here to disapprove of other adults' consensual play. My issue is whether racist play involves a psychology and effect that is inherently damaging irrespective of consent....

Condoning consensual activity does not have to equate to condoning psychologically damaging play. I think there is a distinction and the distinction actually does matter. For the record most serial killers will also admit to the taking of another's life being "exhilarating" and exciting. I don't see that as the necessary benchmark to use to evaluate the usefulness of the activity per se. Motivators and consequences do matter....


^[sm=goodpost.gif]^ ftp

* I hear what you're saying, CaptR, but there is often a seamless transition from breaking taboos into entering into the territory of illegal sexual activities, such as human trafficking, pederasty, bestiality & necrophilia, which isn't a debatable question of personal morality or the right to choose IMHO.

_____________________________

* * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *



CaptR -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 8:38:07 AM)

Interesting you would take a form of consensual play and associate the actions of serial killers to it. I didn't realize words like "exhilarating" pertained to only them. I find sex exhilarating at times, am I going to off my wife in the process? I think not. Snow skiing is exhilarating for me but I'm not going to imperil or impaled fellow skiers on my poles while humping down the hill. In my take on the subject all of the persons involved are consenting not coerced adults with educated and in full grasp of the type of play they engage in. Its obvious if a participant is offended or hurt psychologically the play has become something sinister in a sense and not to be condoned or continued. As for someone using a racially sensitive word or within the boundaries of our lifestyle dealing with their "slave" I would argue the statement it could lead to "illegal" activities is no more supportable than caffeine being a gateway substance. Yes you have unbalanced individuals who carry things to the extremes in every walk of life but that doesn't mean they are all going to go to them. I own a car, am I going to intentionally break the law because the potential is there, no. I own guns, am I going to storm some facility and wreak havoc, certainly not. I (allegedly) smoked pot as a teenager, did I wind up addicted to harder drugs, no I didn't even try any. Race play as an introduction to illegal activities is as questionable as any of the above examples. There are many people in alternative lifestyles who indulge in activities when viewed by the vanilla public that could be considered steps on the road to hell. How far down that road are each of us in their eyes? The first masochist I had a relationship with was a learning experience for I wasn't comfortable at all going to what I considered extreme back then. After much research and countless hours discussing it with her I became educated in the psychology of the (her) masochistic mind. I "grew" borrowing a term we're so find of using in our BdSm discussions. Please know I don't support or condone any form of racial or religious persecution I am in fact in a healthy, respectful, loving interracial marriage with biracial children. I like to think I have a good perspective on the subject at hand. Also, my wife is German. Addressing the subject of "studies." I would suggest "studies" don't reflect the various aspects of our lifestyle as nicely as you'd want. Submissive women can be such a wide range of subject matter. Are they all well adjusted and happy, no. The polled group may be a stable, happy 50's household spank me when I'm bad Daddy pool of individuals but what about the the edgier more psychologically challenged members inherent in every walk of life?



TigressLily -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 9:33:55 AM)


You say you are in a loving interracial marriage. This isn't about you or anyone else in a committed, vested relationship bonded with children. Both you and your wife have too much to lose to act irresponsibly. (Which isn't to say it doesn't happen or that there isn't domestic abuse as prevalent within a marital construct than without, generally speaking) I am the product of a bi-racial marriage myself. My kids are more than 1/4 mixed, although by outward appearances they pass for fully Caucasian (one has blue eyes, the other hazel).

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR

.... In my take on the subject all of the persons involved are consenting not coerced adults with educated and in full grasp of the type of play they engage in. Its obvious if a participant is offended or hurt psychologically the play has become something sinister in a sense and not to be condoned or continued.... Please know I don't support or condone any form of racial or religious persecution I am in fact in a healthy, respectful, loving interracial marriage with biracial children. I like to think I have a good perspective on the subject at hand.
<snip>

OP did not open this discussion on the grounds of pre-existing intimate relationships. One can reasonably surmise he is speaking of play partners. In his own profile, where he has classified himself as a Male Dominant, he writes: "Am very much interested in D/S especially as it pertains to raceplay...and perhaps establishing a mutual relationship....as a sub white bunny slave to superior ebony woman....I can go either way I feel...tis just now I feel wanting to belong to someone as a white slave btch now." (Ref also Rochsub2009's comments re OP's profile per Post #15 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4561720)

See my Post #11 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4561710 re potential for a Top getting accused, whether wrongfully or not, for a hate crime. Chances are this wouldn't apply to you or your wife whatsoever.

See mnottertail's link http://www.collarchat.com/m_4515884/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4552929 re a sub who seeks random "real racists" for Rac[ist] Play.

_____________________________

* * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *



Rochsub2009 -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 11:55:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptR

In my opinion there is no room for non consensual play under any guise so I would assume the parties involved in either form would negotiate reasonable expectations and stick with them. As long as no laws are broken, no individual is used beyond their accepted parameters who among us in this lifestyle is really comfortable casting stones at personal choice?


I agree with this. I have seen plenty of people who enjoyed participating in race play that I have found to be distasteful. But it was their choice, so it wasn't my place to stop them.

I'm African-American, and I can admit that it bothers me when I see African-Americans asking to be taken as a "n***er slave". But I see it rather frequently. Some people just get off on that kind of thing. It baffles me when I see it, but I've seen it too often to be surprised anymore.

There is a frequent poster on this site who is into that. She's caucasian, but she enjoys race play, and is quite active in discussions about "n***er slaves" on other sites. She has ads actively seeking "n***er slaves". Frankly, I was disappointed in her when I discovered her activities on those other sites. I had never seen her behave that way on this site. But I had to accept that as long as she doesn't call ME a "n***er", then she is free to do whatever she likes with other consenting adults.

The bottom line is that what's done between consenting adults is THEIR business, regardless of how objectionable we may find their behavior to be. So long as they aren't breaking any laws, they should be allowed to enjoy their race play in peace.



lovethyself -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 12:25:47 PM)

From a conceptual stand point, I'm not sure that I see any fundamental difference between what's been described here and humiliation play. The intention (if I'm not mistaken) in both is to role play where one party is humiliated, degraded, insulted, etc. for the enjoyment of both parties. Race play is just using race as the basis for the humiliation, with words like n***er instead of slut or whore.

Both types of play can go too far, hit emotional triggers, be motivated from an unhealthy place, etc. But I've also seen people on here that go for humiliation, and have come across as healthy, well adjusted people. Since I've never personally met them, take that opinion with a grain of salt.

Personally this is all speculation on my part, as I don't like (or completely understand) humiliation fetishes. I know they exist, and that there are advocates that will say that it's perfectly safe and healthy for consenting adults to participate in it.



Winterapple -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 1:52:01 PM)

I assume that the people who are into raceplay
are those who get turned on by giving or receiving
humiliation and degradation. People that aren't into
it often look askance at people who are.

In some of the humiliation communities on fet people
who are into raceplay pop up alongside women, gay
people, overweight people, etc wanting things that
would seem to be the stuff of nightmares. Is raceplay
all that more outrageous than rape play?

If we conclude that the person who is role playing terrorizing
someone in a scenario based on real life horrors like historical
slavery and Nazis is a fucked up bigot what should we conclude
about men who like to physically and verbally degrade women?

I imagine many people outside the kink world would think the
man slapping, tying up, spitting on and whipping a woman is
as fucked up as the guy putting on the Nazi uniform for a play
session.

You'd have a hard time convincing some people it was
all in good fun, no harm, no foul, he doesn't have issues
with women and she isn't a person with psychological
issues being exploited and abused.

People who are into humiliation and degradation of
whatever stripe can be acting on unhealthy impulses
but I don't know that it's any likelier to be the case
with humiliation and degradation than any other kink.




kalikshama -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 2:20:45 PM)

quote:

I have dated across the racial, ethnic and religious spectrum, I am only interested in people who I find to be INTERESTING people, independent of their race, ethnicity or religious background. I am not interested in my background being a fetish in and of itself, just as I am not interested in treating others people's background as a fetish. Thus, "race play" as a category has never held any interest.


Same here.



CaptR -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 3:38:36 PM)

There you have it. It all boils down to personal choice. We still have that liberty as consenting, knowledgeable, responsible adults to engage in a lifestyle that completes us regardless of race, creed, religion or chosen kink. Before tears of joy roll down the lapels of my Nazi uniform and stain the leather of my cracker whip I'm going to change and watch reruns of "Dexter." If I'm destined to become an "exhilarated serial killer" I'd better brush up on technique. (Its a joke, don't be offended)



CaptR -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 5:16:00 PM)

FTP, I would like to relate an experience I had with a woman who is now a valued friend. She's black, in her early 50's and a very successful attorney in Texas. She can document her lineage to slaves on a Georgia plantation. Each year she joins a group of trusted friends of various ethnic backgrounds. She consents to be stripped, shackled and sold at auction to be used on an agreed upon level at her new Masters will. I was amazed this educated, strong, beautiful woman would subject herself to such an obviously degrading experience (for a black woman especially) and asked about her motivation. Her reply was lengthy but the reason she said was it grounded her in a heritage that culminated in her existence. It gave her respect for her ancestors who persevered through a period in history from her parents dealings with racism all the way back to that Georgia farm and her family beginnings on this continent. Although complex the yearly journey she takes transcends her from her that patch of dirt to the present and in her way she undergoes transformation from being a slave to who she is today. I'm not a psychologist but through the longer and more detailed explanation I received I understood not all race play was based on racism and can certainly benefit an individual in a personal way. There are almost two dozen attendees at this gathering over half of which are slaves of both sexes and at least three ethnic backgrounds, each with their own motivation for being there. I'll concede any form of play within our community can have negative effects if not properly executed. Race play is no different and each participant is the sole judge of whether or not its harmful to them be they married or just play partners.



fucktoyprincess -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 6:34:20 PM)

CaptR, I NEVER suggested that racist play leads to serial killing. You are completely misinterpreting my point if that is how you read it. I am pointing out the absolute irrelevancy of finding play exciting or exhilarating.

I do NOT consider racist play to be the equivalent of humiliation play, D/s, or any of the other things that people are mentioning as equivalents.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I will stick with mine, thanks.

It does strike me that age and geography may be a factor here. Maybe people born in certain eras or certain places are tapping into the "taboo" aspect of sex between the races - a taboo which, as I have pointed out in my other posts, doesn't exist at the same level in all places as it used to. The racist play might be a way of making the "taboo" sex more acceptable to the players at hand if they are of an older age, or living in a more racially charged environment.

I personally have an attitude towards BDSM and sexuality generally that supports the ideal of people coming to these things from a healthy psychological perspective. If people are coming to this world from an unhealthy place psychologically then I think that is troublesome. I wouldn't want to be with a vanilla person who harbors deep rooted psychological issues about sex that are unhealthy. Why would it be any different in the BDSM world? Not a single person I've been involved with in this world was coming to this from a wounded place. Again, everyone play at your own speed. I enjoy being with psychologically healthy partners (which means people who deal with their wounds through therapy, etc. and who don't use BDSM as a crutch to alleviate their psychological ills - BDSM is not psychiatric/psychological treatment, and I think it is unwise for people to use it as such) Those who have issues need to work them out through the proper channels in the proper way and not use BDSM as a crutch.

A person who is self-hating due to their race needs to seek out help to determine why they feel that way, and take active steps to develop their self-esteem. I'm not interested in being with anyone who is a self-hater or who is interested in taking advantage of someone else's self-hatred. Those who want or need that in their lives - seek each other out, I guess, but don't try to convince me that it is "psychologically healthy" to be that way. I'm not buying it. And if someone is not self-loathing - why would racist play be at all of interest? I would think for someone who has good self-esteem, racist play would either seem improper or completely laughable. I truly don't understand how such play would work if someone did not have issues with race to begin with. [sm=2cents.gif]



CaptR -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 7:12:14 PM)

Ftp, I whole heartedly agree with healthy mental stability with respect to BdSm. I feel though you are missing the point not all race play is rooted in hatred or self loathing. My example above is just one such instance. I was amused you brought the extreme example of a serial killer into our discussion because I used the word "exhilarating." I even provided appropriate scenarios that could be described in that manner. If race play is disturbing to you then that is your take to be resolved or not on your terms. I suggest its not that way for everyone. If someone has inner turmoil and uses our lifestyle as a misguided form of coping in this life I'm with you, they should seek professional help elsewhere. You are very passionate about this subject being negative and I'd suggest you reflect on why that is. I'm happy to discuss an alternative healthy view.



CaptR -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 7:21:07 PM)

I'm chuckling at the implied southern stereotypical age related comment. Your assumption is naive.



Rochsub2009 -> RE: Race Play (10/9/2013 7:33:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself

From a conceptual stand point, I'm not sure that I see any fundamental difference between what's been described here and humiliation play. The intention (if I'm not mistaken) in both is to role play where one party is humiliated, degraded, insulted, etc. for the enjoyment of both parties. Race play is just using race as the basis for the humiliation, with words like n***er instead of slut or whore.

Both types of play can go too far, hit emotional triggers, be motivated from an unhealthy place, etc.


I agree with you. Race play probably isn't that different from the other types of humiliation play that you mentioned. But I think I'm more sensitive to race play because I'm African-American. Also, I think race play offends our politically correct sensibilities more than other forms of humiliation play.

I don't quite understand why an overweight person would get aroused from being called a "fat pig", or why a woman would get wet from being called a "whore" or "cunt", but I know there are plenty who do. I'm sure the psychology community would have a field day studying humiliation play.



CaptR -> RE: raceplay (10/9/2013 7:33:44 PM)

Also, if we are to continue this discussion I invite you to a private one so not to be censured by the moderators as diatribe. After you young lady. My mind and door are both open.



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