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My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 3:02:43 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Is equal to my disdain for American politicians.

We are currently among the worst nations in the industrialised world for literacy rate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320

I was schooled in the fifties and sixties when the majority of kids scored fairly well in Maths and English. From the seventies onwards the notion of streamlining classes by abilites was slowly done away with. The next thing was the dumbing down of exams, the idea being that more kids were seen to pass but in effect standards had been lowered. Schools looked as if they were doing well, a true case of more is less.

So the two party system has done it again, one party gets in power, carries out the idealogical changes they wish. Election time come around, the other party gets back in, and the revolving doors, revolve.

Politicans, today you have my contempt.
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 4:17:51 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		I blame Sesame Street.

Something else to look at is the changing of how teachers are trained. Most children are now learning to read using the "whole word" method instead of phonics. Which I think is completely stupid. Sure, adults do use whole word reading, but it is because we already know how to pronounce all the words. When we come across an unfamiliar word, such as hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia, we use phonics to sound it out to ourselves. (It means fear of long words.) Without a solid grounding in phonics, it is difficult to improve your reading abilities.

Here is a wiki link for a book you might find interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

But yes, there is a greater percentage of folks in the Western World that are illiterate and innumerate than there was a century and more ago.

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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 4:49:16 AM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline 		Big issue with the streaming argument is that Finland is 2nd and Finland doesn't stream. In fact, they're very liberal. The Netherlands streams heavily however and is top. What that suggests is that streaming or the lack of isn't the crucial factor- there must be other issues at play.

I share your disdain for politicians though. The last one we had that was worth anything was Attlee.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 8:25:39 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

Big issue with the streaming argument is that Finland is 2nd and Finland doesn't stream. In fact, they're very liberal. The Netherlands streams heavily however and is top. What that suggests is that streaming or the lack of isn't the crucial factor- there must be other issues at play. I share your disdain for politicians though. The last one we had that was worth anything was Attlee.

Ummm . . . . maybe heterogeneous vs homogeneous populations????

Or .. . . maybe 50 state systems of education in the US vs single, top down systems in Finland and the Nethers????

(in reply to Apocalypso)
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 8:59:11 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I have to agree PS.... abso-fucking-lutely!!!!

I saw my own kids doing English, Maths, Science etc when they were 14-16 and they did far less on each subject than when *I* went to junior school aged 8-11 FFS.

My step-son got a pass mark as an E in English (???!?). A fucking E as a PASS???
He can't write for shit - even simple stuff. Can't spell at all. And what he does write, nobody can read it because it's in ALL CAPS and looks more like a batch of dead spiders squashed on the paper than handwriting!! In Maths, he can't even add 2 and 3 together without a fucking calculator. When he spends money in the shop he has no idea if he's getting the right change because he can't even count past the number of fingers on his hands. And he gets a D pass mark for this SHIT!!
My daughter has a lot of straight A's with merits and distinctions but for most of her work, I would give it a C or D from my school days - and that's being generous.

What IS our world coming to? This is the next generation FFS - and some of these kids are going to be running companies and even in the government?? Yikes, I'm glad I'll be well gone when this lot and their kids start running the country.

The fucking education people and the polititions all claimed that the subjects and the exams weren't dumbed down - but they were, by a whole order of magnitude and more!!!!

I was one of the two guys that wrote the grading systems for the old-style CSE/GCE/O-level exams for several london exam boards. Only the top 5% or so were awarded the top marks (A's) and there were no such things as stars or merits or distinctions and the pass grade was C- or better. If you got a D or lower - you failed. Simple as that.
Now, because they've dumbed-down the lessons and exams to such a low level, shit-loads are getting A's so they have to distinguish higher marks with extraneous crap.

These modern polititians have a lot to answer for. Gawd help us.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 10/8/2013 9:00:40 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 9:08:26 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I have to agree PS.... abso-fucking-lutely!!!!
I saw my own kids doing English, Maths, Science etc when they were 14-16 and they did far less on each subject than when *I* went to junior school aged 8-11 FFS.
My step-son got a pass mark as an E in English (???!?). A fucking E as a PASS???
He can't write for shit - even simple stuff. Can't spell at all. And what he does write, nobody can read it because it's in ALL CAPS and looks more like a batch of dead spiders squashed on the paper than handwriting!! In Maths, he can't even add 2 and 3 together without a fucking calculator. When he spends money in the shop he has no idea if he's getting the right change because he can't even count past the number of fingers on his hands. And he gets a D pass mark for this SHIT!!
My daughter has a lot of straight A's with merits and distinctions but for most of her work, I would give it a C or D from my school days - and that's being generous.
What IS our world coming to? This is the next generation FFS - and some of these kids are going to be running companies and even in the government?? Yikes, I'm glad I'll be well gone when this lot and their kids start running the country.
The fucking education people and the polititions all claimed that the subjects and the exams weren't dumbed down - but they were, by a whole order of magnitude and more!!!!
I was one of the two guys that wrote the grading systems for the old-style CSE/GCE/O-level exams for several london exam boards. Only the top 5% or so were awarded the top marks (A's) and there were no such things as stars or merits or distinctions and the pass grade was C- or better. If you got a D or lower - you failed. Simple as that.
Now, because they've dumbed-down the lessons and exams to such a low level, shit-loads are getting A's so they have to distinguish higher marks with extraneous crap.
These modern polititians have a lot to answer for. Gawd help us.


An 'E' as a grade?!?!? LMAO!! I've never heard of that before!! Maybe it was determined to be un-PC to leave it out of the grade scale. Jumping over it hurt it's self-esteem. lol

Kids can't be expected to pass like they were when you were a kid, or when I was a kid (in case we aren't from the same generation). Things in the States have been dumbed down. Now, they is even talk of making separate grading scales (lowering expectations) so more kids will pass. Can't keep a kid back a year that can't pass anymore. It's too demeaning.

FFS, what did they think was going to happen when even red pens couldn't be used for grading purposes anymore?!?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 9:17:54 AM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Ummm . . . . maybe heterogeneous vs homogeneous populations????

Or .. . . maybe 50 state systems of education in the US vs single, top down systems in Finland and the Nethers????

*Cough* Read the OP again, chap. I'm comparing the UK education system with Finland and the Netherlands, not the US system. (Quite honestly, I know next to nothing about how education works in the US, so I'm not qualified to comment).

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 9:33:50 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Is equal to my disdain for American politicians.

We are currently among the worst nations in the industrialised world for literacy rate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320

I was schooled in the fifties and sixties when the majority of kids scored fairly well in Maths and English. From the seventies onwards the notion of streamlining classes by abilites was slowly done away with. The next thing was the dumbing down of exams, the idea being that more kids were seen to pass but in effect standards had been lowered. Schools looked as if they were doing well, a true case of more is less.

So the two party system has done it again, one party gets in power, carries out the idealogical changes they wish. Election time come around, the other party gets back in, and the revolving doors, revolve.

Politicans, today you have my contempt.


I always got the impression that British schools were a lot tougher than our schools, or at least, better disciplined with more rigid standards. Our schools tended to be less formal, at least when I was going to school. We also moved around when I was a kid, so I noticed that different schools/districts had different standards and curricula.

But we're facing many of the same problems with our schools lagging behind in the areas of math and science.

I don't know if it's the same over there, but part of the problem that I've noticed about schools is that, far too often, society tends to use the schools as political football fields over issues that adults can't resolve at their own level. School board meetings can be pretty lively and explosive, while the campaigns can be quite bitter and political. Our local district is top-heavy with a bureaucracy of professional administrators drawing huge salaries, which works out to be the public sector's version of the "trickle-down" system. At the classroom level, the teachers have to make do with whatever is left over. It's not uncommon for teachers to pay out of pocket for basic classroom supplies (especially in districts where the parents can't afford to pay for such things).

But I agree that the politicians are the ones primarily to blame. Instead of just letting the schools do their job, every political hack in America seems to want to fiddle around with it while promising that they're going to improve education - but never do.


(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 10:00:15 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
An 'E' as a grade?!?!? LMAO!! I've never heard of that before!! Maybe it was determined to be un-PC to leave it out of the grade scale. Jumping over it hurt it's self-esteem. lol

Kids can't be expected to pass like they were when you were a kid, or when I was a kid (in case we aren't from the same generation). Things in the States have been dumbed down. Now, they is even talk of making separate grading scales (lowering expectations) so more kids will pass. Can't keep a kid back a year that can't pass anymore. It's too demeaning.

FFS, what did they think was going to happen when even red pens couldn't be used for grading purposes anymore?!?



When I was in elementary school, I seem to recall the grading system was "E" for "excellent," "S" for "satisfactory," and "U" for "unsatisfactory" (which was considered a failing grade). We didn't have the A-F system.

In junior high school, our report cards just had our final grades expressed in percentages without any letter grades. I was still in high school when we moved out to Arizona, and that was my first experience with the A through D/F grading system. I never got an F, but I did get a D. My grades sort of slipped in my last semester of my senior year for reasons I don't quite remember at the moment.

It wasn't until I got to university that I encountered the A through E system, with "E" being the failing grade. "F" was still used in the context of "pass/fail," where the only two grades possible were "P" or "F," for certain classes where that option was available. Then there was "I" for "incomplete" which would then automatically become an "E" if the coursework was not completed within a specified time.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 10:34:33 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
An 'E' as a grade?!?!? LMAO!! I've never heard of that before!! Maybe it was determined to be un-PC to leave it out of the grade scale. Jumping over it hurt it's self-esteem. lol

Pretty standard alphabetical grading system these days over here: A-H.

A: Good pass.  Higher than 'standard A' grade gets a star, merit, then distinction for the best ones.
B: Better than average pass mark.
C, D: Standard average pass mark.
E, F: Below standard but still a pass.
G: Fail. Hard to get this if you've written your name on the exam paper.
H: Ungraded or some other really dismal failure.


Old system -
A: Good pass. Have to get better than 95 or 96% to get an A grade. 99% or better got you an A+
B: Better than average. Usually within the top 15% to get this.
C: Average, but a pass. This used to be about 50% of the gradings.
C-: A bare-scrape pass mark by the skin of your teeth; but a pass.
D: Fail, but not by a lot.
E: Bad fail.
F: Dismal fail. Might as well not have bothered taking the exam.
U: Ungraded. Usually a sign that the student failed to turn up or scored less than 2%.

From what I have witnessed first-hand in todays schools and the work the students do, pretty much 99% of them wouldn't get any better than a C or C- under the old system.

ETA: In my school days, we covered a LOT more of the subject matter than modern lessons and we also had shitloads more homework than today's kids.
In my time, 2 hours a day homework was normal, plus 4-5 hours over a weekend or school holiday.
I don't think any of my kids did more than maybe 2 hours homework per term (semester)!!

And they wonder why we are waaay down the literacy tables??


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 10/8/2013 10:41:05 AM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 11:05:09 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

But yes, there is a greater percentage of folks in the Western World that are illiterate and innumerate than there was a century and more ago.

Are we sure about that? I tried finding pertinent stats, but the key website is down for the shutdown.

Back in 1997, American Heritage had a fascinating article about how a lot of the perceived "decline" in education stems from the fact that we now educate, or try to, a much larger portion of the population.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 11:12:51 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Interesting info on literacy rates. Need to scroll down a bit.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/literacy-rates

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 12:03:04 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Ummm . . . . maybe heterogeneous vs homogeneous populations????
Or .. . . maybe 50 state systems of education in the US vs single, top down systems in Finland and the Nethers????

*Cough* Read the OP again, chap. I'm comparing the UK education system with Finland and the Netherlands, not the US system. (Quite honestly, I know next to nothing about how education works in the US, so I'm not qualified to comment).


It doesn't. Now, you know almost everything you need to know about education in the US.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: My disdain fo English Politicians - 10/8/2013 12:15:12 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
An 'E' as a grade?!?!? LMAO!! I've never heard of that before!! Maybe it was determined to be un-PC to leave it out of the grade scale. Jumping over it hurt it's self-esteem. lol

Pretty standard alphabetical grading system these days over here: A-H.
A: Good pass.  Higher than 'standard A' grade gets a star, merit, then distinction for the best ones.
B: Better than average pass mark.
C, D: Standard average pass mark.
E, F: Below standard but still a pass.
G: Fail. Hard to get this if you've written your name on the exam paper.
H: Ungraded or some other really dismal failure.
Old system -
A: Good pass. Have to get better than 95 or 96% to get an A grade. 99% or better got you an A+
B: Better than average. Usually within the top 15% to get this.
C: Average, but a pass. This used to be about 50% of the gradings.
C-: A bare-scrape pass mark by the skin of your teeth; but a pass.
D: Fail, but not by a lot.
E: Bad fail.
F: Dismal fail. Might as well not have bothered taking the exam.
U: Ungraded. Usually a sign that the student failed to turn up or scored less than 2%.
From what I have witnessed first-hand in todays schools and the work the students do, pretty much 99% of them wouldn't get any better than a C or C- under the old system.
ETA: In my school days, we covered a LOT more of the subject matter than modern lessons and we also had shitloads more homework than today's kids.
In my time, 2 hours a day homework was normal, plus 4-5 hours over a weekend or school holiday.
I don't think any of my kids did more than maybe 2 hours homework per term (semester)!!
And they wonder why we are waaay down the literacy tables??


When I went to college, anything lower than a C (even a C-) was a no no for anything. If you didn't get at least a C, it didn't count towards your degree. You would have to take the class over until you get a C or better. We did have some classes that were Pass/Fail, but those usually didn't carry any credit weight towards your GPA.

I know my oldest boy has to pass with a 93%+ to merit an 'A' grade.

I have encountered a 12-pt. scale in my academic career, too (A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C, C-, D+, D, D-, F), though I don't know if that has continued or not. For my Associate's (2-year) degree, a 'D' was passing, and you pretty much had to try to fail to not get a 'C' or higher. It was really pathetic how easy and lax the coursework was.

I do recall my HS years that I had an hour or two of homework every night, too. Homework over the holidays and weekends, too. One of my younger boys once had a teacher that told the students that she rarely had them do work outside of school and he probably had 5 or 6 instances where he had to do something at home. His twin brother had homework more often than not, but nothing like what I went through.

I'm looking forward to my oldest eventually getting to HS to see what his workload is going to be.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 14
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