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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/3/2013 2:16:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Problems start when people stipulate that Science is the only possible or admissible research method, or elevate a research method to the status of an ideology aka Scientism or confuse scientific orthodoxy with facts or truth. There are many areas where Science is an excellent research methodology, but that isn't a universal fact. There are other areas where Science doesn't seem to me to be particularly suitable.


Like, for instance, in researching what it feels like to fall in love?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/3/2013 5:26:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I told you what to do. I see no reason to spend my time explaining it to you.

Well I can see why you wouldn't. "Try Googling Oppenheimer and Shiva" my ass. The deity of the Bhagavad Gita is Vishnu, not Shiva. And Oppenheimer was wrong too. The verse doesn't say, "Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of worlds."

Bhagavad Gita XI:32 I am the mighty world-destroying Time, now engaged in destroying the worlds. Even without thee, none of the warriors arrayed in the hostile armies shall live.

Bhagavad Gita XI:32 The Supreme Lord said: I am time, the mighty force that vanquishes everyone, and My mission is to devour all who reside in this world. Of all fighters in the enemy party, even if not slain by you, not one will be spared.

Anything else you'd like to add on the subject of "Oppenheimer and Shiva"?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/3/2013 5:56:10 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/3/2013 5:29:08 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Like, for instance, in researching what it feels like to fall in love?

I think that's been covered.

K.


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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/3/2013 9:35:25 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Like, for instance, in researching what it feels like to fall in love?

I think that's been covered.

K.



Perhaps. However if any one wishes to conduct some serious scientific research by falling in love with me, I promise to do my best to be a dispassionate object of study.

On a slightly more serious, but probably more amusing note, I note that there are still claims that Godel's limits don't apply to science.

Godel's Theorems proved certain limits apply to logical systems. Theoretically*, science is system structured and guided by logic. Thus the claim reads:
logical proofs don't apply to a particular logical system ..... Why? It appears that the only reason is that the acolytes of Scientism tell us so, that their interpretation of Godel and its implications are the only valid one. Easy to identify all the hallmarks of a secular religion in the ideology of Scientism isn't it?

I also note that, for the duration of this thread, not a single objection or dissenting voice has been advanced to contest any of the other limits to knowledge I listed above. A person doesn't have to be a logician to work out why.....
..


* I have deliberately chosen "theoretically" here as there are huge gaps between the scientific method as a theory and its practice. The gaps between the scientific method as its is designed to be and the model of science being advanced here by the acolytes of Scientism is even larger.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/3/2013 10:08:35 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 3:01:27 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I told you what to do. I see no reason to spend my time explaining it to you.

Well I can see why you wouldn't. "Try Googling Oppenheimer and Shiva" my ass. The deity of the Bhagavad Gita is Vishnu, not Shiva. And Oppenheimer was wrong too. The verse doesn't say, "Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of worlds."

Bhagavad Gita XI:32 I am the mighty world-destroying Time, now engaged in destroying the worlds. Even without thee, none of the warriors arrayed in the hostile armies shall live.

Bhagavad Gita XI:32 The Supreme Lord said: I am time, the mighty force that vanquishes everyone, and My mission is to devour all who reside in this world. Of all fighters in the enemy party, even if not slain by you, not one will be spared.

Anything else you'd like to add on the subject of "Oppenheimer and Shiva"?

K.


So Oppenheimer got it wrong. That doesn't change what he wrote about seeing the Trinity test nor does it change why physicists remind themselves what he said and why.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 8:39:51 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Problems start when people stipulate that Science is the only possible or admissible research method, or elevate a research method to the status of an ideology aka Scientism or confuse scientific orthodoxy with facts or truth. There are many areas where Science is an excellent research methodology, but that isn't a universal fact. There are other areas where Science doesn't seem to me to be particularly suitable.

Like, for instance, in researching what it feels like to fall in love?


Sure, if one wants to know the feeling of falling in love that knowledge about the phenomenon will of course be experiential. It's when one starts claiming knowledge of the causes of such phenomenon based on "looking inside ourselves" that we reliably encounter supernatural stupidity such as love is magically beamed into our heads by a goddess via infantile archer.


Similarly it's Tweaks claim of knowledge about how reality operates based on her OBE's that's spawned the last 8 pages:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
For my part, I am quite convinced, from my personal experience, that during my OBEs, the focus of my awareness is outside my physical body.



< Message edited by GotSteel -- 11/4/2013 8:43:53 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 11:18:52 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Similarly it's Tweaks claim of knowledge about how reality operates based on her OBE's that's spawned the last 8 pages:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
For my part, I am quite convinced, from my personal experience, that during my OBEs, the focus of my awareness is outside my physical body.

My claim is very clearly about my personal experience, not about a "claim of knowledge about how reality operates".

You are very clearly making shit up, which is enough to permanently disqualify you from any discussion of "reality"


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/4/2013 11:28:28 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 3:08:30 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So Oppenheimer got it wrong. That doesn't change what he wrote about seeing the Trinity test nor does it change why physicists remind themselves what he said and why.

You're just making shit up. The statue of Shiva at CERN is not there to "remind physicists of what [Oppenheimer] said and why." Oppenheimer wasn't quoting Shiva. You just made that up. Oppenheimer wasn't even quoting Krishna. He just made that up.

In the Hindu religion, this form of the dancing Lord Shiva is known as the Nataraj and symbolises Shakti, or life force. As a plaque alongside the statue explains, the belief is that Lord Shiva danced the Universe into existence, motivates it, and will eventually extinguish it. Carl Sagan drew the metaphor between the cosmic dance of the Nataraj and the modern study of the 'cosmic dance' of subatomic particles. ~CERN

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/4/2013 3:39:18 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 3:47:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

supernatural stupidity such as love is magically beamed into our heads by a goddess via infantile archer.

This from the same guy who criticizes other Fundamentalists for taking Genesis literally.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/4/2013 3:48:44 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 3:55:06 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Similarly it's Tweaks claim of knowledge about how reality operates based on her OBE's that's spawned the last 8 pages:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
For my part, I am quite convinced, from my personal experience, that during my OBEs, the focus of my awareness is outside my physical body.

My claim is very clearly about my personal experience, not about a "claim of knowledge about how reality operates".

You are very clearly making shit up, which is enough to permanently disqualify you from any discussion of "reality"


Perhaps I've been misunderstanding your statements but from where I'm standing you've made numerous such claims. I eagerly await your explanation of why that's not the case.

Take this one for instance where Kirata makes a supernatural claim about consciousness and you back him up with debunked woo:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Kirata
[..] individual consciousness, although normally coincident with the physical body, can nevertheless function independently and separate from it.

Those of us who have enjoyed an out-of-body experience (OBE, often called 'soaring') can attest to the validity of this claim.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 4:13:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Take this one for instance where Kirata makes a supernatural claim about consciousness and you back him up with debunked woo:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Kirata
[..] individual consciousness, although normally coincident with the physical body, can nevertheless function independently and separate from it.

Those of us who have enjoyed an out-of-body experience (OBE, often called 'soaring') can attest to the validity of this claim.


And you can take this as an instance of how someone can end up looking like either an idiot or a liar when they put somebody on Hide and then jump on a partial quote without knowing the context. Tweakabelle excerpted the portion of the statement to which she was responding, but the relevant part of the post in full was this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Good question, K. What would it take to convince you to the contrary?

Well I can't say I'm convinced of it in the first place. But I'm sufficiently convinced that individual consciousness, although normally coincident with the physical body, can nevertheless function independently and separate from it.

How long it can do so, and what happens then, is another matter.

Saying that one is "sufficiently convinced" of something is not the same as making a bald claim. And, for that matter, what's supernatural about it anyway? It could only be declared "supernatural" (ooooweeeooo) by someone so steeped in the creed of Physicalism that he believes everything that contradicts his catechism is heresy.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/4/2013 4:32:46 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 4:32:06 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So Oppenheimer got it wrong. That doesn't change what he wrote about seeing the Trinity test nor does it change why physicists remind themselves what he said and why.

You're just making shit up. The statue of Shiva at CERN is not there to "remind physicists of what [Oppenheimer] said and why." Oppenheimer wasn't quoting Shiva. You just made that up. Oppenheimer wasn't even quoting Krishna. He just made that up.

In the Hindu religion, this form of the dancing Lord Shiva is known as the Nataraj and symbolises Shakti, or life force. As a plaque alongside the statue explains, the belief is that Lord Shiva danced the Universe into existence, motivates it, and will eventually extinguish it. Carl Sagan drew the metaphor between the cosmic dance of the Nataraj and the modern study of the 'cosmic dance' of subatomic particles. ~CERN

K.


Sure. Why don't you come to Hyde Park and ask a few physicists. You can start with the offices of The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 4:36:28 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure. Why don't you come to Hyde Park and ask a few physicists. You can start with the offices of The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

The statement from CERN and the plaque on the base of the statue attest to its meaning and significance. Anybody who thinks it has something to do with Oppenheimer and his fake Krishna quote is just as wrong as you are, regardless of whether they're a physicist or a bricklayer.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/4/2013 5:01:16 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 5:05:22 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure. Why don't you come to Hyde Park and ask a few physicists. You can start with the offices of The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

The statement from CERN and the plaque on the base of the statue attest to its meaning and significance. Anybody who thinks it has something to do with Oppenheimer and his fake Krishna quote is just as wrong as you are, regardless of whether they're a physicist or a bricklayer.

K.



Sure. You know everything about physicists and Shiva because you read a plaque on a statue. Aren't you the guy who whines incessantly about people being close minded?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 5:08:58 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

GotSteel
Perhaps I've been misunderstanding your statements ....


I'm glad we finally agree on something.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 5:35:37 PM   
deathtothepixies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I'm sufficiently convinced that individual consciousness, although normally coincident with the physical body, can nevertheless function independently and separate from it.



K.
[/font][/size]

really?

how?

what do you have other than what you think or hope to make that statement credible?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 6:28:28 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I'm sufficiently convinced that individual consciousness, although normally coincident with the physical body, can nevertheless function independently and separate from it.

what do you have other than what you think or hope to make that statement credible?

Well nothing, of course. How could I? OBE's are just chemicals messing with your head no matter how they are induced. You said so yourself. Period, close Holy Book. So you mustn't let this silliness disturb you. In fact, I don't blame you for not reading the thread. There's nothing to see here. Run along now, you'll be late for church.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4573290
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4573861

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/4/2013 6:40:16 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 7:38:49 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

GotSteel
Perhaps I've been misunderstanding your statements ....

I'm glad we finally agree on something.


Inability to wiggle out of your claims of knowledge noted.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/4/2013 9:48:10 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

GotSteel
Perhaps I've been misunderstanding your statements ....

I'm glad we finally agree on something.


Inability to wiggle out of your claims of knowledge noted.


It has already been pointed out to you that I didn't make the "claims of knowledge" you allege I made (see post 447). I stated that my personal experiences enabled me to "attest to the validity" of my consciousness being outside my body during an OBE.

Perhaps you misunderstand the word 'attest'. Here's the OED definition:
verb
1 [with object] provide or serve as clear evidence of Source

So I was saying was that my personal experiences supported the validity of a certain claim. I'm not claiming that my experiences proved the claim. I'm open to the possibility that my interpretation of my experiences is erroneous, though I am yet to see a more compelling interpretation that the one I currently hold. But there is absolutely no way that I am making a "claim of knowledge" based on those experiences. Equally, there is no honest way that my statement can be construed as making a "claim of knowledge".

Your posts on this thread to date exhibit a persistent pattern of distortion and falsehoods (eg. your 'interpretations'/contributions re Godel, Hawking and now my alleged "claim of knowledge" to list a few). This is consistent with an ideologue trying to cherry pick and/or fashion/invent data to suit their ideology, a trait you (quite rightly) criticise in others. If your belief system gave you the 'only correct path' to discerning knowledge and reality, as you have insisted from the getgo, there would be no need to resort to invention to buttress your argument.

So please, remove the ideological blinkers imposed by your abject devotion to the Church of Scientism, dump your own particular variety of 'woo', address the points I'm making honestly and directly or find some one else to discuss these matters with.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/4/2013 10:13:48 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/5/2013 5:34:10 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But I'm sufficiently convinced that individual consciousness, although normally coincident with the physical body, can nevertheless function independently and separate from it.



K.
[/font][/size]

really?

how?

what do you have other than what you think or hope to make that statement credible?


I can field that one, the technique is to vigorously attack science to try and make magical thinking seem more reasonable.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 460
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