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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 11:33:11 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

There was no intention to shift the goalposts, and my bad if my post lends itself to that reading. The locus of consciousness is one aspect of the greater issue of arriving at a deep understanding of consciousness. It seems to me unlikely that a deep understanding could not be arrived at without some understanding of its locus. Be that as it may I am happy to go either way.

I regret the comment on moving the goal posts. Sorry about that.

Locus schmocus. We are not even agreed on a definition of consciousness. My own definition would be that conscious experience is the function by which the brain interacts with the internal and external environment. It is the brain's awareness. I invite your definition. Maybe we can find some commonality.

quote:

the demand for proof becomes a demand for the impossible, and evidence of experience is dismissed as “anecdotal” (on a good day) or “hallucinations” (on a bad day) depending on the mood of the acolyte doing the dismissing (some would say arrogance). This is why I find the demand for “scientific proof’ troubling.

I ask you to set aside for the moment the negative baggage that comes with the term "Hallucination" and treat it as a category (I know, I know) of brain generated illusions. I provided a link earlier to a discussion of Charles Bonnet Syndrome where the patient perceives very real like but non existent persons, sharp and clear unlike a dream. In Charles Bonnet Syndrome the perceived figures did not communicate with the patient. In schizophrenia the patient is bombarded by accusatory voices. I am not saying here, not even implying that OBE is a pathogenic condition. Quite the contrary. I am pointing out that the human brain is capable of some incredible feats of consciousness.

quote:

However I feel obliged to query your statement that some “subjective experiences that will probably forever be beyond the scientific method except science can show that they originate in the brain”. My understanding is that current research is limited to demonstrating a correlation between subjective exps and certain types of brain activity. I am unaware of any research demonstrating that these exps. ”originate” in the brain. It was pointed out earlier in the thread that the arrow of cause-and-effect points in both directions.


I pointed earlier to two of many cause and effect relationships. Prefrontal lobotomies lead to judgments that were inappropriate or immoral. See the book Rebel Without a Cause if it is still in print. Not the movie btw. Totally different. I also pointed out that lesions to the angular gyrus resulted in difficulty handling written language and spatial relationships. Along with pathologies like schizophrenia and Charles Bonnet Syndrome I cannot imagine more direct evidence that the brain is the source of consciousness. Let me add also that phantom limb pain has been fairly easily relieved by the clever use of mirrors. More evidence that the brain produces conscious experience.

Does the arrow point the other way? Yes, of course. Experiences alter the brain. Addiction alters the brain. Meditation alters the brain. But addiction and meditation are behaviors initiated by the brain. And perceptions of environmental experiences are received and interpreted by the brain. Let me add also while I think of it there is a bulging history of electrode implants that conjured up conscious experiences. I think therefore we have ample evidence that the brain is the author of consciousness. And no evidence for any other author or locus. I grant the reality of your OBE but in my model it originates in your brain. I do not ask for scientific proof to the contrary; I only ask for a possible explanation, a mechanism, a pathway as to how you could experience it if it were located beyond anatomy.

quote:

Indeed. However the limits I have been referring are constitutional limits, not practical ones. These limits are part of the structure. According Brionowoski, Bertrand Russell found that the only way these limits could be altered was by "taking the maths out of maths". So I am unable to share your optimism.

Again, math is not the only or even the predominant mode of human thinking.

quote:

But please Vincent, no one in their right minds could ever accuse me of being (a) American, (b) religious or (c) a right winger. On these boards I have been consistently scathing about the Religious Right in the USA and wherever else these lunatics might trot out their drivel.

QFT

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 11:54:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

You meant it to apply to everyone who defends science as shown by your next sentence.

Kudos for being specific. Unfortunately, you are the exception.

There is no way what I said could be construed to apply to "everyone" who defends science. And the sentence you've lifted out of context doesn't even apply to what I said, it applies to what Vincent said. Give the fuck up.

K.



~FR~

Puhleeze stop taking my name in vain!!!
Vincent

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 11:59:23 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I see that you, Tweaks, and others here, set yourself against scientism. But in a really major sense scientism has already won and you've already accepted it. You use science-lingo to explain your OBE experiences and what you've said has done little to impart just how powerful those experiences have been. Really, you've already lost because you've accepted the rules of language decreed by your opponents. You always engage your opponents on their playing field. Write a frigging poem or at least a short story, for god's sake. If they can't understand it, poetically tell them to fuck off.

I do not recall anyone suggesting that the character of consciousness was subject to scientific examination. I think we all agree that subjective experience cannot be quantified.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 5:34:36 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I do not ask for scientific proof to the contrary; I only ask for a possible explanation, a mechanism, a pathway as to how you could experience it if it were located beyond anatomy.

Why should evidence of something be dismissed because there is no ready explanation for how it could happen? And why limit the possible range of explanations when it seems unlikely that any mechanistic account could suffice? Isn't that stacking the deck to preclude any explanation that would violate the assumption of physicalism?

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/8/2013 5:54:48 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 5:56:04 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I do not ask for scientific proof to the contrary; I only ask for a possible explanation, a mechanism, a pathway as to how you could experience it if it were located beyond anatomy.

Why should evidence of something be dismissed because there is no "explanation" for how it could happen. And why limit the possible range of explanations when it seems unlikely that any mechanistic account could fit those facts? Isn't that stacking the deck to preclude any explanation that violates the physicalist assumption?

First you need a repeatable verifiable phenomena. Then you can start measuring stuff to find an explanation. Only if nothing could be measured or otherwise detected would a supernatural explanation even be worth considering.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 6:46:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

First you need a repeatable verifiable phenomena. Then you can start measuring stuff to find an explanation. Only if nothing could be measured or otherwise detected would a supernatural explanation even be worth considering.

But we do have measurements. Lots of them. We have measured the electrical activity patterns associated with states of consciousness from waking through hypnagogic states, dreaming, dreamless sleep, and different meditative states. We're very familiar with them. These patterns are accepted, replicated, stable findings.

Accordingly, faced with accumulating reports of lucid states of consciousness during periods when measurements show none of the electrical signatures associated with any state of awareness at all, it seems to me reasonable to suspect that consciousness may not always and in all circumstances be dependent on the brain.

I see no need to invoke the "supernatural" here, however. Many things are natural and within everyone's experience that have no physical explanation. We haven't the slightest clue how electrical activity in the brain gives rise to conscious subjective experience, and there isn't even any reason to expect that it would.

K.



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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 7:11:38 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

First you need a repeatable verifiable phenomena. Then you can start measuring stuff to find an explanation. Only if nothing could be measured or otherwise detected would a supernatural explanation even be worth considering.

But we do have measurements. Lots of them. We have measured the electrical activity patterns associated with states of consciousness from waking through hypnagogic states, dreaming, dreamless sleep, and different meditative states. We're very familiar with them. These patterns are accepted, replicated, stable findings.

Accordingly, faced with accumulating reports of lucid states of consciousness during periods when measurements show none of the electrical signatures associated with any state of awareness at all, it seems to me reasonable to suspect that consciousness may not always and in all circumstances be dependent on the brain.

I see no need to invoke the "supernatural" here, however. Many things are natural and within everyone's experience that have no physical explanation. We haven't the slightest clue how electrical activity in the brain gives rise to conscious subjective experience, and there isn't even any reason to expect that it would.

The problem is your claim of lucid consciousness. The evidence for that is simply not there.

You cannot simply say "there are reports of x therefore it must be true" see bigfoot, ufo's etc.

And yes, you have to invoke the supernatural for consciousness to be separate from the brain.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 7:47:01 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But we do have measurements. Lots of them. We have measured the electrical activity patterns associated with states of consciousness from waking through hypnagogic states, dreaming, dreamless sleep, and different meditative states. We're very familiar with them. These patterns are accepted, replicated, stable findings.

Accordingly, faced with accumulating reports of lucid states of consciousness during periods when measurements show none of the electrical signatures associated with any state of awareness at all, it seems to me reasonable to suspect that consciousness may not always and in all circumstances be dependent on the brain.

I see no need to invoke the "supernatural" here, however. Many things are natural and within everyone's experience that have no physical explanation. We haven't the slightest clue how electrical activity in the brain gives rise to conscious subjective experience, and there isn't even any reason to expect that it would.

K.

How is it you appeal in your first paragraph to measurements of electrical activity associated with states of consciousness and then in your third paragraph you claim there is no reason to think electrical activity in the brain gives rise to consciousness? Are you not contradicting yourself? I think so.

As to the lack of electrical signatures associated with the state of awareness I pointed out that fMRI imaging is far more sensitive than EEG measures.

What are the many things natural and within everyone's experience that have no physical explanation?


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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 7:51:47 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I do not ask for scientific proof to the contrary; I only ask for a possible explanation, a mechanism, a pathway as to how you could experience it if it were located beyond anatomy.

Why should evidence of something be dismissed because there is no ready explanation for how it could happen? And why limit the possible range of explanations when it seems unlikely that any mechanistic account could suffice? Isn't that stacking the deck to preclude any explanation that would violate the assumption of physicalism?

K.



If it isn't physical it must be super-physical or supernatural. What other choice is there?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/8/2013 11:15:19 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

What are the many things natural and within everyone's experience that have no physical explanation?


We know that something is happening 'behind the eyes' of a newborn infant from the earliest stages. Infants don't arrive in this world with a tabula rasa. Mothers regularly report successful communications with their babies long before the 'mirror stage' (c6 months) that is thought to first publicly signal the infant's emergent consciousness. Awareness and consciousness appear to be present and active prior to all (subsequent) psychic development and are necessary pre-conditions for acculturation.

We also know that a human being is more than the sum of its physical parts. What this ‘something extra’ might be is not known. It has resisted all attempts at specification and/or identification (to date), and also resisted all attempts at symbolic representation except via vague allusions.

But we do know 'something' is present/happening there that cannot be accounted for physically. That something appears to be some kind of 'natural' entity/process, yet it defies physical explanation. It also seems to be part of every human's personal history. We don't know what it is, how it works or its pathways but we do know its effects.

So the notion that there may be something there, something that defies physical explanation is not at all far fetched. It appears to be an essential part of each and every one of us. As things stand, it also appears to be beyond the explanatory limits of a purely materialist model.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/8/2013 11:37:35 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 2:56:29 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

What are the many things natural and within everyone's experience that have no physical explanation?


We know that something is happening 'behind the eyes' of a newborn infant from the earliest stages. Infants don't arrive in this world with a tabula rasa. Mothers regularly report successful communications with their babies long before the 'mirror stage' (c6 months) that is thought to first publicly signal the infant's emergent consciousness. Awareness and consciousness appear to be present and active prior to all (subsequent) psychic development and are necessary pre-conditions for acculturation.

Animals that cannot pass the mirror test are aware of their surroundings and can interact with them including responding to their parents. Nothing there defies explanation.

quote:

We also know that a human being is more than the sum of its physical parts. What this ‘something extra’ might be is not known. It has resisted all attempts at specification and/or identification (to date), and also resisted all attempts at symbolic representation except via vague allusions.

But we do know 'something' is present/happening there that cannot be accounted for physically. That something appears to be some kind of 'natural' entity/process, yet it defies physical explanation. It also seems to be part of every human's personal history. We don't know what it is, how it works or its pathways but we do know its effects.

So the notion that there may be something there, something that defies physical explanation is not at all far fetched. It appears to be an essential part of each and every one of us. As things stand, it also appears to be beyond the explanatory limits of a purely materialist model.

woo and vague nonsense.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 7:23:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

We know that something is happening 'behind the eyes' of a newborn infant from the earliest stages. Infants don't arrive in this world with a tabula rasa. Mothers regularly report successful communications with their babies long before the 'mirror stage' (c6 months) that is thought to first publicly signal the infant's emergent consciousness. Awareness and consciousness appear to be present and active prior to all (subsequent) psychic development and are necessary pre-conditions for acculturation.

Third trimester fetuses have a fairly well developing fetal brain. They are sensitive to the mother's voice (through diaphragm vibrations perhaps) Not to the father's voice. I have never suggested a tabula rasa. Your position would be bolstered if awareness were shown in a child born without a brain. But they die within a few hours at most. So, not gonna happen. What you say above seems in no way to contradict the essential role of a physical brain functioning. I am happy to see we agree that consciousness is emergent.

quote:

We also know that a human being is more than the sum of its physical parts. What this ‘something extra’ might be is not known. It has resisted all attempts at specification and/or identification (to date), and also resisted all attempts at symbolic representation except via vague allusions.

I recall you writing this quite awhile ago. Your meaning eludes me. A human is a complex dynamic non-linear emergent biological system. Every primate is. It should be self-evident that they are more than the sum of their physical parts by the very nature of their organization and functions. I am troubled that your 'something extra' skirts the edges of some mystical essence that others have called 'soul.' I don't see how you can avoid falling into the soul pool, although I know it is not your intention to even dip your toes in those waters. How would you distinguish between 'something that resists representation' and something called 'soul?'

quote:

So the notion that there may be something there, something that defies physical explanation is not at all far fetched. It appears to be an essential part of each and every one of us. As things stand, it also appears to be beyond the explanatory limits of a purely materialist model.

Is this any more than an appeal to Cartesian dualism?

I really appreciate the chance to engage this dialogue. Many thanks.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/9/2013 7:27:36 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 9:20:57 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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Status: offline 		I don't knock on people's doors, I don't scream outside abortion clinics, heck I don't even proselytize in my personal life (like you do). The thing I do is discuss religion in forums for discussing religion and claiming I don't have that right is deeply offensive.

As much as I'm sure plenty of theists would love us to stop talking about their absurd and often demonstrably wrong beliefs and all the harm those beliefs cause, it's not going to happen. We're not going back in the closet.


WE'RE HERE

WE'RE ATHEISTS

GET USED TO IT!

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 9:27:43 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
We also know that a human being is more than the sum of its physical parts.


So is my wrist watch.

Is it possessed by a demon

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 9:49:40 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I don't knock on people's doors, I don't scream outside abortion clinics, heck I don't even proselytize in my personal life (like you do). The thing I do is discuss religion in forums for discussing religion and claiming I don't have that right is deeply offensive.

As much as I'm sure plenty of theists would love us to stop talking about their absurd and often demonstrably wrong beliefs and all the harm those beliefs cause, it's not going to happen. We're not going back in the closet.


WE'RE HERE

WE'RE ATHEISTS

GET USED TO IT!

Isn't it amazing how theists demand a right they would deny to us and then they claim to love all people and respect our right not to believe? And then they complain about the so called New atheists having the audacity to openly state that religion is silly and does harm to mankind.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 11:59:17 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I am troubled that your 'something extra' skirts the edges of some mystical essence that others have called 'soul.' I don't see how you can avoid falling into the soul pool, although I know it is not your intention to even dip your toes in those waters.


Just an aside: I've never met a woman who's an out-and-out materialist. A few men - but no women at all. Female materialist-purists just don't exist. I thought I knew one at one time, but some years after I met her she revealed, when drunk once, that she believed she had a guardian angel in the shape of a long-dead great aunt.

Women do not *do* outright materialism. Discuss.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 12:47:12 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I am troubled that your 'something extra' skirts the edges of some mystical essence that others have called 'soul.' I don't see how you can avoid falling into the soul pool, although I know it is not your intention to even dip your toes in those waters.


Just an aside: I've never met a woman who's an out-and-out materialist. A few men - but no women at all. Female materialist-purists just don't exist. I thought I knew one at one time, but some years after I met her she revealed, when drunk once, that she believed she had a guardian angel in the shape of a long-dead great aunt.

Women do not *do* outright materialism. Discuss.

Ah . . . you did not meet Mad Madeline Murray O'Hair before she was chopped up and buried in a barrel or Emma Goldman before she was deported back to Russia. I never did either truthfully but they were notable examples.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 1:21:23 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I am troubled that your 'something extra' skirts the edges of some mystical essence that others have called 'soul.' I don't see how you can avoid falling into the soul pool, although I know it is not your intention to even dip your toes in those waters.


Just an aside: I've never met a woman who's an out-and-out materialist. A few men - but no women at all. Female materialist-purists just don't exist. I thought I knew one at one time, but some years after I met her she revealed, when drunk once, that she believed she had a guardian angel in the shape of a long-dead great aunt.

Women do not *do* outright materialism. Discuss.

I can introduce you to a bunch.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 1:26:19 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

WE'RE HERE

WE'RE ATHEISTS

GET USED TO IT!




LMAO. Reminds me of

WE'RE FIERCE
WE'RE FEMINISTS
AND WE'RE IN YOUR FACE

that is all

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 11/9/2013 5:44:26 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
LMAO. Reminds me of

WE'RE FIERCE
WE'RE FEMINISTS
AND WE'RE IN YOUR FACE

that is all


Sure, when an oppressed group gets to the point where they can do something besides just bend over and take the butt rape, you can predictably expect them to start sticking up for themselves.

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