RE: The Covert Messiah (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/14/2013 1:57:42 PM)

quote:

From where I sit, there is no intention to attack Science, either overtly or covertly. Actually, the attack on Science doesn't come from my perspective but in the distortion of science that enables Scientism. There is no basis in the scientific method for the claim that the scientific method is the only possible avenue to discovering truth. This claim is purely ideological - as such it cannot be part of a methodology. It is this claim, and the specific ideology that enables and necessitates it and the dangerous deceitful conflation of science with Scientism, that have been the sole targets of my critique, as I have specified several times.

Tweakabelle, the term 'Scientism' carries with it a post-modernist slander against science:

Scientism is a philosophical position that exalts the methods of the natural sciences above all other modes of human inquiry. Scientism embraces only empiricism and reason to explain phenomena of any dimension, whether physical, social, cultural, or psychological. Drawing from the general empiricism of the Enlightenment, scientism is most closely associated with the positivism of Auguste Comte (1798 1857), who held an extreme view of empiricism, insisting that true knowledge of the world arises only from perceptual experience. Comte criticized ungrounded speculations about phenomena that cannot be directly encountered by proper observation, analysis, and experiment. Such a doctrinaire stance associated with science leads to an abuse of reason that transforms a rational philosophy of science into an irrational dogma (Hayek 1952).

So, Comte's criticism of speculations ungrounded in perceptual experience is a doctrinaire stance? How is that? I am puzzled. Not really. I understand the political concerns of giving power to a scientific elite. However, I think that is a misguided position as evidenced by the popular pushback against UN Climate proclamations. Furthermore, the observation that 44% of Americans are certain of the second coming of Jesus within the next 50 years also testifies to the lack of danger from any scientific elite reigning supreme over public policy.

Criticism is carried to extreme in the following outrageous comment:

A scientistic culture privileges scientific knowledge over all other ways of knowing. It uses jargon, technical language, and technical evidence in public debate as a means to exclude the laity from participation in policy formation. Despite such obvious transgressions of democracy, common citizens yield to the dictates of scientism without a fight. The norms of science abound in popular culture, and the naturalized authority of scientific reasoning can lead, if left unchecked, to a malignancy of cultural norms. The most notorious example of this was seen in Nazi Germany, where a noxious combination of scientism and utopianism led to the eugenics excesses of the Third Reich (Arendt [1951] 1973). SOURCE

It wasn't science that fueled the eugenics excesses. It was a twisted political ideology that used medical sycophants and cowards to implement murderous practices. The Nazi card is a slander. If evil men use science for evil means does science become scientism? I don't think so?

So, what's going on here? Just my opinion of course but I see 'scientism' as a harmful and unsupportable post-modernist criticism that comforts, however unintended, the attacks against science from the fundamentalist religious right whose literalist reading of the bible and unswerving allegiance to the authority of those ancient books is threatened by science.

[:)]






PeonForHer -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/14/2013 2:42:58 PM)

Sounds like both you and Tweak need to dump both modernism and postmodernism in favour of neomodernism. Neomodernists try at least not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.




vincentML -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/15/2013 9:46:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Sounds like both you and Tweak need to dump both modernism and postmodernism in favour of neomodernism. Neomodernists try at least not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I would be comfortable with the precepts of neo-modernism. Yeppers.




DOMAINENT -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/15/2013 5:29:35 PM)

Horus
Egypt-3000 b.c.
Born on Dec. 25th
Star in the east
Adorned by 3 kings
Teacher at 12
Baptized/ministry at 30
12 disciples
Performed miracles
"lamb of god/the light"
Dead for 3 days
resurrected

Attis
Greece-1200 b.c.
born of a virgin
Born on Dec. 25th
crucified
dead for 3 days
resurrected

Krishna
India-900 b.c.
born of a virgin
star in the east
performed miracles
resurrected

Dionysus
Greece-500 b.c
born of a virgin
born on Dec. 25th
traveling teacher that performed miracles
"king of kings"
"alpha and omega"
resurrected

Mithra
Persia-1200 b.c.
born of a virgin on Dec. 25th
12 disciples
performed miracles
resurrected


I don't know how accurate these accounts are.




Arturas -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/15/2013 5:59:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello all,

I found this article interesting. It suggests that there is proof that Jesus Christ was a fictional character and was deliberately created by the ancient Roman aristocracy.

I think that might be a little overblown. I think the evidence is overwhelming that Christianity began as one of a number of mystery cults which were quite common in the Roman Empire at the time. Clearly almost everything in the NT about a person named Jesus is fiction but I think there must have been a guy who all of this was based on. A guy, a cult leader in a period when numerous doomsday cults existed in Judea not a deity or third of a deity.


Yeah, I don't know. I've often debated this over the years with myself. Until I knew that many religions in diverse parts of the world have the same messiah story line, I wondered why God would just send His son to one part of the ancient world? What about other parts of the world and other and radically different societies and outlooks and languages and moralities? The answer might be that he did the obvious, he touched many parts of the world with roughly the same game plan and same son while completely changing the game plan for those societies in which it would not work and instead did the Buddha approach or "great Spirit" approach with the American Indians or the multi God approach with Hindus. Because the purpose is not to sell Jesus but to teach a moral compass and the approach may differ as long as it gets the job done.




vincentML -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/16/2013 11:18:04 AM)

quote:

Yeah, I don't know. I've often debated this over the years with myself. Until I knew that many religions in diverse parts of the world have the same messiah story line, I wondered why God would just send His son to one part of the ancient world? What about other parts of the world and other and radically different societies and outlooks and languages and moralities? The answer might be that he did the obvious, he touched many parts of the world with roughly the same game plan and same son while completely changing the game plan for those societies in which it would not work and instead did the Buddha approach or "great Spirit" approach with the American Indians or the multi God approach with Hindus. Because the purpose is not to sell Jesus but to teach a moral compass and the approach may differ as long as it gets the job done.

AFAIK the Buddha was never in the same league as the boy-gods incarnate.

Furthermore, no insult intended, your orientation appears to be sort of flat-earthish. If there is a creator-god it would known that the universe it created had an expanding space/time dimension. So where is the Christ for recent times? Did he come and go unnoticed? And did he not appear to other societies beyond earth? Was Jesus a one off? Or maybe man invented the god-creator? Questions to ponder . . .




Phydeaux -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/17/2013 12:49:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:


If there is a creator-god it would known that the universe it created had an expanding space/time dimension. So where is the Christ for recent times? Did he come and go unnoticed? And did he not appear to other societies beyond earth? Was Jesus a one off? Or maybe man invented the god-creator? Questions to ponder . . .


Answer's in the bible.




GotSteel -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/17/2013 8:58:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If there is a creator-god it would known that the universe it created had an expanding space/time dimension. So where is the Christ for recent times? Did he come and go unnoticed? And did he not appear to other societies beyond earth? Was Jesus a one off? Or maybe man invented the god-creator? Questions to ponder . . .


Answer's in the bible.


There aren't though, the Bible doesn't talk about cloning, stem cell research, organ transplants. Where's the New New Testament that deals with the morality of everything that didn't exist 2,000 years ago?




DomKen -> RE: The Covert Messiah (11/17/2013 9:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If there is a creator-god it would known that the universe it created had an expanding space/time dimension. So where is the Christ for recent times? Did he come and go unnoticed? And did he not appear to other societies beyond earth? Was Jesus a one off? Or maybe man invented the god-creator? Questions to ponder . . .


Answer's in the bible.


There aren't though, the Bible doesn't talk about cloning, stem cell research, organ transplants. Where's the New New Testament that deals with the morality of everything that didn't exist 2,000 years ago?

It's all in there. You just have to forget everything you've ever learned, tilt your head, smash it with a large stone several times and then squint real hard.




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