The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (Full Version)

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MistressDREAD -> The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 12:46:50 AM)

The Power of One.
It did not escape My notice that a vote on a proposed Constitutional amendment to ban flag
burning occurred one week befor the Fourth of July. In case you missed the news the Senate
failed to pass the amendment by just one little ol vote. One. I dont want to hear anymore
about how an Americans one vote doesent count.Nope, I dont want to hear anyone chatter
about how one vote doesent matter after this. Ive been doing a lot of thinking today about
the United States of America's flag and its meaning and how much it means to Me. ( I have
three Sons who are Marines on active duty. )I thought about those who might want to burn it
in protest or treat it disrespectfully and Our Country. I remember the times the Americans
burned the flag in their protests in the 60's and 70s however in current times its mostly
seen being burned by those in other Countries who might not even have a clue the meaning
of such an act on the USA. After all its one thing for a person who Owns such a item to
burn and protest such and wholly a different matter in others who dont Own such to burn
and protest it.We live in a nation that allows people to openly proclaim their disagreement
with the government. I have wondered for example if Michael Moore really appreciates the
freedom he enjoys in the USA ( there are many countries that not only would of banned a local
version of Fahrenheit 9 11 but would of have thrown him in jail to boot.)Its not right to
claim that Our Country doesent support free speech. Pick up  any paper, turn on a radio,
not just from Our Country but from many other Countries, and you will find a great deal of
speech that doesent support those in power. Ours is a nation born of protest and protest
is allowed to occur. Which brings Me to the whole flag burning issue. Most as I said earlier
who burn the flag are not even Americans and could care less about a Constitutional Amendment.
So what about those who are Americans and want to show their contempt for their nation
by burning a flag? Let ME TALK TO YOU PEOPLE FOR JUST A SECOND HERE. When you burn the a
flag in protest do you know what you are burning ? Do you know just what the flag means ?
ok this question is for everyone not just the smart aleck who will say its a red white and
blue peice of cloth, do you really know its meaning and how its handling has special significance?
You think when you burn the flag that you are protesting the peadership of Our Country
but Our flag represents far more then that handful of Americans. When you look at the flag
you shouldent just see the President, The Congress, and other Leaders, look closer. Do you
see the young faces of Our soldiers who have paid the ultimate price not only  to ensure
our own freedoms but the freedoms of the world.When you burn the flag you dont just show contempt
for those in power but show contempt for your fellow American. The teachers, clergy, bag boy
at the local food store, police officer, and even Me a first generation American who is
overly Patriotic and yourself as well if you are American. Tuesday is the Fourth of July.
What ever your political affiliation take a moment between your picnics and fireworks
to salute Your flag. Be sure She is flown and proudly displayed in all Her grandure.And if
you have to protest anything in the USA, can you pick something OTHER then burning the flag?
My Honoring of the Flag.
Here is a bit of information for those who do not know the full meaning of Our United States
Flag and what the ceremonies that go behind such represent.The actions in handling the flag
is full of meaning to each and every American and I feel all in the world should know just
how much the flag means in all Her glory.
Flag folding represents the same principles the USA was founded on and here are just what
each fold and handling of the flag represents to All.
Folding the Flag:
Fold 1. The first fold of the flag is a symbol of life.
Fold 2. The second fold is a symbol of the belief in the eternal life.
Fold 3. The third fold is made in honor and rememberance of the veterns departing the ranks who
gave a portion of life for the defence of this country to attain a peace throughout the world.
Fold 4. The fourth fold represents the weaker nature for an American citizen trusting in
God it is to him people turn in times of peace as well as war for his diine guidance.
Fold 5.The fifth fold is in tribute to the country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur,
Our Country is dealing with other Countries may she always be right but it is still Our
Country right or wrong.
Fold 6. The sixth fold is for where everyones hearts lie. It is with the heart that people
pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which
it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
Fold 7. The seventh fold is a tribute to the Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces
that protect this country and the flag against all her enemies whether they be found within
or without the boundaries of this republic.
Fold 8. The eighth fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow
of death. That people might see the light of day and to honor mother for who it flies on Mothers
Day.
Fold 9. The ninth fold is a tribute to womanhood. for it has been through their faith, love,
loyalty and devotion that the character of men and woman who have made this country great have
been molded from.
Fold 10. The tenth fold is a tribute to father, for he too has given his sons and daughters
for the defense of this country since they were first born.
Fold 11. The eleventh fold is the eyes of a hebrew citizen that represents the lower portion
of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in their eye the God of Abraham,
Isaac, and Jacob.
Fold 12. The twelth fold and final fold is in the eyes of a Christian citizen, represents an
emblem of eternity and glorifies in their eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost.
OK Ive yapped enough today and shown My Patriotic side in My usual ways, I hope everyone here
on collarme has learned something about the flag I choose to glorify here or Ive reminded those
Americans who might of forgot the true meaning of whats celebrated this 4th of July and will
remember to pay tribute to not just Our Freedom but pay tribute to Our flag that represents
such in all its raising.



SusanofO -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 1:04:15 AM)

I agree - one look at who is in office now and how he got there is another great example. Remember how close the vote count was? - Susan



fullofgrace -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 1:28:34 AM)

proud to be an american (even if i'm not proud of our government) and i am SO glad this did not pass. not because i think we should all go burn flags, because i find it highly offensive, but i also don't think we have a right to ban flag-burning. on top of that (and the major reason why i am against the proposal that was voted on) the actual proposal states any form of desecration of the flag. number one, the government doesn't have the right to declare something sacred, and desecration implies that it is sacred. number two, the government can draw the line of desecration wherever it wishes. if this passed, they could prosecute people not just for burning the flag, but for using any kind of flag emblem on ANYTHING - a pamphlet, a flyer, etc. just for putting an image of the flag on something. i personally think that any such proposal should be much more well-defined before it's passed, and not involve terminology that make us sound like a theocracy, not a democracy.

that said, i think this post is an awesome post about what our flag means, and why it's special to us as a country. thank you for posting it :)



meatcleaver -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 2:22:36 AM)

I think most people outside the US understand the symbolism the flag has for Americans which is why burning it is such a powerful statement. Americans have the name for being belligerently patriotic, patriotic symbols are powerful because the US is a young country and the symbols represent the ideology of the American state and are the glue that bind so many disparate people together. To deface American national symbols is not a way of insulting America but a way of complete and utter rejection of its ideology.

As an Englishman, I really don't care who defaces my national symbols because I'm not patriotic and don't believe in any state ideology. I have no constitution to revere, no Parliament to be loyal to, no establishment I'm willing to die for. What I am loyal to is my birthright (which is my freedom) and the land of my ancestors. Politicians who try to manipulate me through any inherent sense of patriotism are wasting their time.



MstrDouglas -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 2:24:59 AM)

desecration
n : blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character

Anyone that does not think that the government has the right to protect the symbols of our nation, must also feel that they have no right to protect the bald eagle.  Laws are already on the books to do so,not just because it is or was endangered, but because it is one of our nations symbols, just as the flag is.  Also there is a big difference between displaying the flag and desecrating it. 
As a veteran that has given 28 yrs to serving his country, I do not feel that the flag should be treated any different than the bald eagle, both can and should be protected. As far as I am concerned an act is not speech, and therefore burning the flag in protest is not speech it is an act.  Not meaning to put down anyones opinion, just voiceing mine here.  



pahunkboy -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 3:44:15 AM)

At the moment- I feel there should be an amendment against humidity!  It makes things sticky and it makes me sweat. humity bad- me good.

!!!  nex tweek i will be proposed an amendment against house flies....



pahunkboy -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 3:46:56 AM)

PS_ has anyone noticed in recent years how the right- uses the word "treason" alot??



Termyn8or -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 5:08:09 AM)

I shall not burn the flag, and I could care less if it is illegal to do so.

When you burn the flag, you burn it for the politicians who fucked this country up, let me clue you in, they do not care. When you burn a flag in public those who have given their all for this country, misguided or not will see, and it is a slap in their face, and the people who take do not care.

When you burn a flag, GWB will not see it, but a guy walking around on one leg will. Soon, guys with lung cancer will see it, yet their civilian masters won't. The avaerage guy on the street will see it, but your senator won't.

When you burn a flag, just what did you accomplish ? Just what did you intend to accomplish ? How in the hell did you think burning a piece of cloth was going to change the world for the better ?

Yes, the government is bad, and does bad things all over the world, but they don't care, they have no loyalty to the People. When GWB looks at the flag he sees a symbol that anyone can be President. You don't need brains or guts, absolutely not. But when you want to burn a flag for him, you will be in a "free speech zone" ¼ mile away.

I don't know what else to say, burning a flag sends the wrong message to the wrong people. Just because we can't figure out how to send the right message to the right people is no reason to destroy a piece of cloth, which will piss of a bunch of people you did not want to piss off, at least some of them.

Also, if you think that the good of the USA is embodied somhow in a piece of cloth you have a mental disorder. The charity, the humnity, the strength of our People are not embodied, nor even represented by a piece of cloth. Just as burning a piece of cloth does not destroy these virtues, it will not instill them in the politician.

If you have enough time to go down on the street and burn a flag, why don't you stop and think of a way to do something that will actually make a positive change ? I know this is hard, I know this is damnear impossible, but it must be done. Win the hearts and minds of the young, rather than desecrating their memories of those who died. Teach them real right from wrong, rather than the twisted bullshit of the media and government. Teach them the truth, very hard to do, but worth the effort.

I have much disdain for this government, in spades, I wish all three of those planes had nukes on them and all headed straight for the Capitol. I wish they were gone, and would do whatever I could to help when the anarchy set in. But I know that burning a flag doesn't do anything, it just pisses some people off, and usually not the people you want to piss off.

This is actually a non issue, it is another red herring to keep us out of focus about what they are really doing, just like the abortion issue. Abortion is murder plain and simple, and I am all for it. If you are willing to kill your kids, do it. If you are against abortion, don't have one.

My heritage, all the good things, are not enbodied in a piece of cloth. All the bad things the US government does are not embodied in a piece of cloth. Burning a piece of cloth will no more destroy what faith I have left in the good things, anymore than it will destroy the bad things.

The only case I can make against burning the flag is the fire might spread, and it is so futile you need your head examined. You will not affect what they do. You will just piss off alot of people, people we need on our side.

If they put flagburners in jail, so be it, we didn't need them anyway, they are as dumb as a box of rocks.

Y'know, I have some misconceptions about history, a fact pointed out to me in another thread. I am researching a bit to support a couple of things for that argument, and by argument I mean a civil argument. Thing is there are a few things nobody can dispute, that the government thinks of us as cattle, or chattel, and sees our existence as "properly" extant to serve their needs.

I feel like burning a flag. Go ahead and burn a flag, but it won't do a bit of good.

I will not burn the flag, but nor will I fly it. Every fucking ideal it may have stood for in the past is gone.

T



pahunkboy -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 5:39:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I shall not burn the flag, and I could care less if it is illegal to do so.

When you burn the flag, you burn it for the politicians who fucked this country up, let me clue you in, they do not care. When you burn a flag in public those who have given their all for this country, misguided or not will see, and it is a slap in their face, and the people who take do not care.

When you burn a flag, GWB will not see it, but a guy walking around on one leg will. Soon, guys with lung cancer will see it, yet their civilian masters won't. The avaerage guy on the street will see it, but your senator won't.

When you burn a flag, just what did you accomplish ? Just what did you intend to accomplish ? How in the hell did you think burning a piece of cloth was going to change the world for the better ?

Yes, the government is bad, and does bad things all over the world, but they don't care, they have no loyalty to the People. When GWB looks at the flag he sees a symbol that anyone can be President. You don't need brains or guts, absolutely not. But when you want to burn a flag for him, you will be in a "free speech zone" ¼ mile away.

I don't know what else to say, burning a flag sends the wrong message to the wrong people. Just because we can't figure out how to send the right message to the right people is no reason to destroy a piece of cloth, which will piss of a bunch of people you did not want to piss off, at least some of them.

Also, if you think that the good of the USA is embodied somhow in a piece of cloth you have a mental disorder. The charity, the humnity, the strength of our People are not embodied, nor even represented by a piece of cloth. Just as burning a piece of cloth does not destroy these virtues, it will not instill them in the politician.

If you have enough time to go down on the street and burn a flag, why don't you stop and think of a way to do something that will actually make a positive change ? I know this is hard, I know this is damnear impossible, but it must be done. Win the hearts and minds of the young, rather than desecrating their memories of those who died. Teach them real right from wrong, rather than the twisted bullshit of the media and government. Teach them the truth, very hard to do, but worth the effort.

I have much disdain for this government, in spades, I wish all three of those planes had nukes on them and all headed straight for the Capitol. I wish they were gone, and would do whatever I could to help when the anarchy set in. But I know that burning a flag doesn't do anything, it just pisses some people off, and usually not the people you want to piss off.

This is actually a non issue, it is another red herring to keep us out of focus about what they are really doing, just like the abortion issue. Abortion is murder plain and simple, and I am all for it. If you are willing to kill your kids, do it. If you are against abortion, don't have one.

My heritage, all the good things, are not enbodied in a piece of cloth. All the bad things the US government does are not embodied in a piece of cloth. Burning a piece of cloth will no more destroy what faith I have left in the good things, anymore than it will destroy the bad things.

The only case I can make against burning the flag is the fire might spread, and it is so futile you need your head examined. You will not affect what they do. You will just piss off alot of people, people we need on our side.

If they put flagburners in jail, so be it, we didn't need them anyway, they are as dumb as a box of rocks.

Y'know, I have some misconceptions about history, a fact pointed out to me in another thread. I am researching a bit to support a couple of things for that argument, and by argument I mean a civil argument. Thing is there are a few things nobody can dispute, that the government thinks of us as cattle, or chattel, and sees our existence as "properly" extant to serve their needs.

I feel like burning a flag. Go ahead and burn a flag, but it won't do a bit of good.

I will not burn the flag, but nor will I fly it. Every fucking ideal it may have stood for in the past is gone.

T


Nicely stated. I agree.

The war on drugs has now made 2 million in US prisons. up from 1 mil in the 80s. so in 20 yrs= will it be 4 million? 6 million?

the ruling elite acts as tho rules do not apply to them.

While I have never burned a flag, I have refused to have it as an emblem on my clothes- car- house, stamps.

That is a silly idea...a free speech zone.
http://www.papersplease.org/gilmore/id.html  --it goes along with teh secret law as mentioned on this site.




philosophy -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 6:40:16 AM)

..... the definition of desecration refers to denying the 'sacred' character of a thing. A flaf is not sacred, it is not a spiritual symbol, but a temporal one. To imbue the symbols of a culture with religious power is surely a sign of a religious state, not a secular one.
Is America a theocracy?



MstrssPassion -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 8:30:13 AM)

quote:

Is America a theocracy?


hmmmm... maybe not America as a whole but in regards to the current administration... bingo!



pahunkboy -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/2/2006 8:34:19 AM)

Why are they [congress] wasting my time with yet another non-issue?

if someone burns a flag WHO CARES. 

we also need an amendment that limits to times a person may masterbate in a 24 hour period.  [lolol]



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/3/2006 2:05:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrDouglas
Anyone that does not think that the government has the right to protect the symbols of our nation, must also feel that they have no right to protect the bald eagle.  Laws are already on the books to do so,not just because it is or was endangered, but because it is one of our nations symbols, just as the flag is.


You see, that analogy doesn't work.  The reason the bald eagle is protected is because it is an endangered species, not just because it is a symbol of our nation.  We guard it a bit more fiercely because it is a symbol of our country, but that is not the reason for its status.  A bald eagle is alive.  A flag isn't... except to the guy who just ate a tenstrip of acid all at once... then it's possible.  If I were to burn a bald eagle, I would be mindlessly torturing a living creature, and that is why I would go to jail, not because I was committing some sort of slander against our nation.  Were a bald eagle an inanimate object like a flag, then you'd have a valid point.

quote:

Also there is a big difference between displaying the flag and desecrating it.


Of course there is.  Who said there wasn't?

quote:

As a veteran that has given 28 yrs to serving his country, I do not feel that the flag should be treated any different than the bald eagle, both can and should be protected.


Once again, the flag doesn't feel pain when it's burned.  The eagle does.  The flag can't scream in terror.  The eagle can.  That should make a big difference.  (And yes, I served my country as well.  209th Quartermaster, Army Reserves.)


quote:

 As far as I am concerned an act is not speech, and therefore burning the flag in protest is not speech it is an act.  Not meaning to put down anyones opinion, just voiceing mine here.  


Well then, the act of standing outside a government building with a sign protesting lack of fair wages for workers (or some other political agenda) would not be considered speech either, and therefore would not be protected.

Honestly, I respect your opinion.  Even if we discount how blatantly hurtful it is, burning our nation's flag is the tackiest show of opinion a person can commit.  I don't approve of it.  However, I believe we have the right to voice our opinions however negative and tacky they are.  Without actually physically hurting living creatures or causing damage to another person's property, I don't think the government has any legal say over what a person does.  If they bought the flag, they have the right to do with it as they will, regardless of how inane it is and how badly it pisses me off.  As long as they're not strangling someone with it or light it on fire to commit arson, there's really nothing we should be able to do.  That's when we get into the sticky area of personal freedoms, and I honestly feel that once we give our government an inch, they will feel free to take a mile.



Sweetdarkluv -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/3/2006 3:15:39 PM)

God bless this mess. I vote. I hope it counts. The last 2 presidential elections weren't great examples of democrocay in action. I sitll vote if only as a way of saying this is my choice. The current adminisration isn't representative of the ideals of the flag. They just think they are. I grew up believing we were the good guys, now I'm not so sure. I hope we can heal our nation and become the world leader W thinks we are.



Dtesmoac -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/3/2006 3:32:19 PM)

Since comming to the US for a period of time (& no I'm not an illegal immigrnat & yes I will be departing at a specific time in the future) ... the reverence  / love of the flag, or any symbol, is a very alien concept ... perhaps in a similar way to meatcleaver ......  by reacting / being angry by burning of the flag you accomplish for the offender what they desired.  Of course comming from a country/ group of countries where the most frequent use of one or both our flags is as shorts / pants (under wear) / or short dresses on pop stars  I have a very deep cultural difference to some / many Americans. Banning any form of expression really achieves very little. Wider ridicule of symbols and steriotypes helps to keep people and countries from taking themselves to seriously....... and therby helps prevent fanaticism.   Like many English I like all things in moderation except extremes which I hate to an extreme...! o and I'm a hypocrit.... in moderation :)



babygirl005 -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/4/2006 12:31:15 AM)

Like many English I like all things in moderation

The moderation you English show during soccer matches is readily apparent.
               Estring 



JalisMaster -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/4/2006 4:56:09 AM)

Now here's the catch-22 question of the day ...

If the flag represents Americas Rights and values, which would include the Freedoms of Speech and Expression ... and a person chooses to burn that Flag ... does that mean they are surrendering their freedom of speech and expression and therefore we can arrest them? [&:]



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/4/2006 8:18:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JalisMaster

Now here's the catch-22 question of the day ...

If the flag represents Americas Rights and values, which would include the Freedoms of Speech and Expression ... and a person chooses to burn that Flag ... does that mean they are surrendering their freedom of speech and expression and therefore we can arrest them? [&:]


Hehehe.  Very good point.  I think more flag burning is done out of objection to a specific point and/or ignorance than not, but it's no joke that most people who would commit such an act would like to have their cake and eat it too.



MistressDiane -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/4/2006 9:07:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

I choose to glorify here or Ive reminded those
Americans who might of forgot the true meaning of whats celebrated this 4th of July and will
remember to pay tribute to not just Our Freedom but pay tribute to Our flag that represents
such in all its raising.


Great post and sentiments...thanks



MistressDREAD -> RE: The Power of One Observations on this Fourth of July (7/4/2006 9:45:05 AM)

Welcome.[:)]



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