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Just0Us0Two -> RE: Innocent bystander killed in SYG case (10/13/2013 10:12:10 PM)
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ORIGINAL: DomKen
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ORIGINAL: Just0Us0Two
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ORIGINAL: DomKen
The duty to retreat is based on common sense. If a confrontation occurs and it is possible to get away that is what you should do. It's worked for 500 years. Now SYG is less than a decade old and we have people killing boys because of loud music and for just being in the wrong place. If you cannot see that the problem is giving people a license to kill rather than requiring that deadly force be used only in the direst circumstance.
The problem with this argument is that "common sense" isn't all that common or always sensible. It's also based on details that are quite subjective.
What constitutes retreating? Technically, taking one step backwards is a retreat.
Wrong. Under self defense the duty to retreat is that you cannot use force until you have exhausted every avenue of escape.
And if taking one step backwards is all I can safely do before I believe every avenue of escape has been exhausted?
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What constitutes a threat of grave bodily harm? If someone shows me a gun in their waste-band and then says "I'll kill you if... " Is that sufficient, or do I have to wait till the gun is in their hand? How about if the person has a knife in hand and says "I'm going to kill you" , but isn't quite close enough to stab me? How about a 5'2", 110lbs woman confronted by a 6'4", 250lbs man, who is unarmed, but is acting aggressively. What if the aggressor is a child? Some folks here seem to think that an adult should never kill a child, even if the child is armed and threatening their life.
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No. The threat has to be imminent so a gun a waistband does not count. Neither does a person waving a knife who isn't close enough to use it. Acting aggressively obviously is not cause to be shot.
First, we have another subjective term. Who decides what exactly constitutes imminent? If I fall into the water and can't swim, I'm in imminent danger of drowning, even if it might take me a minute or two of splashing around to tire and sink. On top of that, the brain can go without oxygen for several minutes. So is it only imminent after I've sunk and all the bubbles have stopped for a minute or two? If I fell in right now, the water is probably 50ish degrees, I'd be in imminent danger of hypothermia, even though it could take 15 or so minutes before my core temp dropped too low. If my home were on fire, would the fire department react right away because I'd be in imminent danger, or would they take their time?
Now let me be sure I have this straight, someone has committed 2 felonies (brandishing and making terroristic threats), 3 if by barring your way he's illegally detaining you. He has a visible weapon that can be readied in just a few seconds. (It takes about 1.5 seconds to clear a holster, so maybe 3 seconds out of a waist-band?) So, when exactly is it ok to shot this person? Are you saying that I have to sit and wait till his weapon clears his pants before I can defend myself?
The 2nd man, the one with the knife in hand, has again committed at least 2 felonies. How close does he have to be before an attack is imminent?
Ok, let me be more specific for "aggressive". He's maneuvered her into a blind alley, is moving her further and further back, and is making threats along the lines of "I'm gonna rape the hell out of you bitch!" Does she have to wait till he actually starts raping her before she can respond?
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SYG laws were supposed to take some of this subjectiveness out of the equation. Of course we're now seeing that they've added all new factors that are just as subjective. The difference, as I see it though at any rate, is that now it's tilted further towards the defender as opposed to the aggressor.
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Wrong. SYG laws were designed to make it less likely that damn fool concealed carriers who misused their weapons would be charged for the crimes they commit. We know this because these laws came out of ALEC and the NRA at the behest of the gun manufacturers.
I have to ask, why does everything with you have to escalate into insults and name calling? I didn't bitch at you. I wrote a calm message asking what I think are reasonable questions. So why the crap? I'm one of those damn fool concealed carriers. I've carried for 7 years now, longer if you count the time I was in the Army as "carrying". In that time, I've never hauled off and murdered any random passers-by, or people playing their radio too loud, any of the other nonsense that's been thrown my way. I realize this is an unmoderated thread, but why jump to incivility?
ETA: to fix the screwed up formatting
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