quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In general, conservative politicians tend to want each individual to have the freedom to choose according to the individual's desires, while the liberals tend to want each individual to have the "freedom" to choose what the liberals want chosen.

Unless they choose an abortion, to have a gay marriage, to freely negotiate a closed shop contract with their employer, to smoke a bit of weed etc.

Conservatives are highly selective about what freedoms they support. They aren't libertarians and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In general, conservative politicians tend to want each individual to have the freedom to choose according to the individual's desires, while the liberals tend to want each individual to have the "freedom" to choose what the liberals want chosen.

Unless they choose an abortion, to have a gay marriage, to freely negotiate a closed shop contract with their employer, to smoke a bit of weed etc.
Conservatives are highly selective about what freedoms they support. They aren't libertarians and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
"In general" doesn't mean, "in every specific case, every time."

quote:

And, don't mistake "Conservatives" to mean "Republicans."

quote:

Libertarians are a mixture of liberal and conservative.

quote:

They tend, in general, to be conservative in government reach, and liberal with the personal freedoms.

quote:

If you would, I'd like to read about the "freely negotiate a closed shop contract with their employer." I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. I think you are referring to "right to work" legislation, but I would rather you tell me that.

quote:

Right to work laws would forbid all such agreements. One justification for such legislation is that these union contracts are invalid, since they are made under duress. Organized labor compels businesses to sign them by threatening all sorts of violence against them, some legal, others illegal. But suppose, hypothetically, that an agreement of this sort were strictly voluntary. Posit that an extreme left wing, "progressive," firm such as Ben and Jerry’s ice cream or Michael Moore Enterprises wanted, desired, was more than willing to, engage in such a commercial interaction with a union. Right to work laws, in forbidding such an arrangement, would then be a violation of the rights of two consenting parties to engage in a capitalist act. Thus, on that ground alone such legislative enactments are incompatible with libertarianism.

quote:

And, as a general fyi, I self-identify as a Libertarian.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If you would, I'd like to read about the "freely negotiate a closed shop contract with their employer." I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. I think you are referring to "right to work" legislation, but I would rather you tell me that.

Yes, that was what I was referring to. Although it's part of a long pattern rather then an isolated incident.

In terms of reading about it, here's a genuine (right) Libertarian view on it- Lew Rockwell article An extract:

quote:

Right to work laws would forbid all such agreements. One justification for such legislation is that these union contracts are invalid, since they are made under duress. Organized labor compels businesses to sign them by threatening all sorts of violence against them, some legal, others illegal. But suppose, hypothetically, that an agreement of this sort were strictly voluntary. Posit that an extreme left wing, "progressive," firm such as Ben and Jerry’s ice cream or Michael Moore Enterprises wanted, desired, was more than willing to, engage in such a commercial interaction with a union. Right to work laws, in forbidding such an arrangement, would then be a violation of the rights of two consenting parties to engage in a capitalist act. Thus, on that ground alone such legislative enactments are incompatible with libertarianism.

I disagree with Rockwell on lots of stuff but he's both a serious thinker and a consistent right-libertarian. And what he argues here is undeniable. Right to work laws undoubtedly consist of the government intervening in employment contracts. This is useful though. This is an issue where we can see more easily the difference between the real libertarians and the conservatives with a libertarian gloss.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm not sure if this claim is true. I live in a right-to-work state, and I know that labor unions are legal and do exist here. They're not forbidden.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
"In general" doesn't mean, "in every specific case, every time."

"In general" means that exceptions should be anomalies. Instead, we see it consistently on social issues, from the vast majority of conservative politicians. So, no, "in general", conservatives do not want "want each individual to have the freedom to choose according to the individual's desires". In general, conservatives want big government to police people's personal lives and their actions (as opposed to words) bear that out.

quote:

And, don't mistake "Conservatives" to mean "Republicans."

Let's take the example of the Patriot Act. Not a single Republican vote against. So, unless you're saying that none of the "conservative politicians" you mentioned are members of the Republican party, then it's a fair analogy to draw. If you are, however, saying that no Republicans are genuine conservatives, I'd be interested to know which politicians you were meaning?

quote:

quote:

Libertarians are a mixture of liberal and conservative.

No. Libertarians are a third and specific ideological position, separate from both liberalism and conservatism. They have produced a body of work which bears this out, whether you agree with them as all.

quote:

They tend, in general, to be conservative in government reach, and liberal with the personal freedoms.

As I pointed out, conservatives are not in any way against government control over people's lives, they just want it on their terms.

quote:

And it's "not in general". If you do not support both of those positions, you're not a libertarian. If you don't support removing government from the market, but you do support non-interference on social issues, you're a social liberal, not a libertarian. If you support fiscal conservatism but not social liberalism, you're quite obviously a fiscal conservative. Not a libertarian. The waters are muddied by the fact a lot of conservatives falsely claim to be libertarians when they aren't. Some of them may even believe it. One of the easiest litmus tests on this is someone's position on abortion. It's only a "problem" for pretend libertarians.

quote:

quote:

If you would, I'd like to read about the "freely negotiate a closed shop contract with their employer." I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. I think you are referring to "right to work" legislation, but I would rather you tell me that.

Yes, that was what I was referring to. Although it's part of a long pattern rather then an isolated incident.
In terms of reading about it, here's a genuine (right) Libertarian view on it- Lew Rockwell article An extract:

quote:

Right to work laws would forbid all such agreements. One justification for such legislation is that these union contracts are invalid, since they are made under duress. Organized labor compels businesses to sign them by threatening all sorts of violence against them, some legal, others illegal. But suppose, hypothetically, that an agreement of this sort were strictly voluntary. Posit that an extreme left wing, "progressive," firm such as Ben and Jerry’s ice cream or Michael Moore Enterprises wanted, desired, was more than willing to, engage in such a commercial interaction with a union. Right to work laws, in forbidding such an arrangement, would then be a violation of the rights of two consenting parties to engage in a capitalist act. Thus, on that ground alone such legislative enactments are incompatible with libertarianism.

I disagree with Rockwell on lots of stuff but he's both a serious thinker and a consistent right-libertarian. And what he argues here is undeniable. Right to work laws undoubtedly consist of the government intervening in employment contracts. This is useful though. This is an issue where we can see more easily the difference between the real libertarians and the conservatives with a libertarian gloss.

quote:

quote:

And, as a general fyi, I self-identify as a Libertarian.

Me too. Although I'm a left-libertarian, which is obviously very different from you. But we can both self-identify as what we want, without it being true. I can call myself a tree, I can genuinely believe I'm a tree. But I don't have roots and branches so I'm almost certainly not one. And you also identify as a conservative. As the two are not the same ideologies, that suggests you're not both. I think you're a fiscal conservative not a libertarian. I'm not calling you a liar. I think you do see yourself as a libertarian. But I don't think that self-perception matches the reality of your political ideology.
We can see this from your strong support for the Tea Party. As I pointed out on the other thread, the Tea Party are overwhelmingly a conservative group, not a libertarian one. Most of them wouldn't even vote for a fiscal conservative who had libertarian social values.
Obviously, voting is a personal matter so you may wish to refuse to answer this, as is your right. But I'd be interested in the answer if you don't mind. How did you vote last presidential election? Romney or Johnson? If it was Johnson, I'll admit I'm probably seeing you as less of a libertarian then you really are. I strongly suspect that wasn't the case though.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
In today's terms, "conservative" and "liberal" are practically meaningless in defining either side's ideological position regarding limited government or maximizing individual freedom. Their principles seem to change depending on what the issue is or which portion of the government they wish to limit or not limit.

I think the liberal/conservative labels are more definitive with regards to the interpretation of the US Constitution.

Sadly, your last statement is true of both parties.

In general, conservative politicians tend to want each individual to have the freedom to choose according to the individual's desires, while the liberals tend to want each individual to have the "freedom" to choose what the liberals want chosen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
In theory, conservatives might purport to believe in a certain set of principles, as do liberals, although in practice, both factions just do whatever is politically expedient.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)