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Yachtie -> Interpol (10/22/2013 1:36:17 PM)

An interesting perspective from the honcho at Interpol -


Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble said today the U.S. and the rest of the democratic world is at a security crossroads in the wake of last month's deadly al-Shabab attack at a shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya – and suggested an answer could be in arming civilians.

In an exclusive interview with ABC News, Noble said there are really only two choices for protecting open societies from attacks like the one on Westgate mall where so-called "soft targets" are hit: either create secure perimeters around the locations or allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves.

"Societies have to think about how they're going to approach the problem," Noble said. "One is to say we want an armed citizenry; you can see the reason for that. Another is to say the enclaves are so secure that in order to get into the soft target you're going to have to pass through extraordinary security."



Interesting that he also specifies open societies. Perhaps there are those who'd prefer the heavy hand of a closed society. One thing we never hear about is crime statistics inside North Korea.

Then there's always "Citizen-X," that famous case from inside crime free, so the State would say, old Soviet Union.


"How do you protect soft targets? That's really the challenge. You can't have armed police forces everywhere," he told reporters.


Businesses could hire TSA, and people pay a fee, or higher prices, either way, no matter, to be felt up before getting into mom and pop shops. A win-win for some.



In the interview with ABC News, Noble was more blunt and directed his comments to his home country.

"Ask yourself: If that was Denver, Col., if that was Texas, would those guys have been able to spend hours, days, shooting people randomly?" Noble said, referring to states with pro-gun traditions. "What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat of terrorism?' This is something that has to be discussed."



Actually, yes. Not that anyone needs hours or days. Unarmed targets are what's needed. That's what they had.



"For me it's a profound question," he continued. "People are quick to say 'gun control, people shouldn't be armed,' etc., etc. I think they have to ask themselves: 'Where would you have wanted to be? In a city where there was gun control and no citizens armed if you're in a Westgate mall, or in a place like Denver or Texas?'"


Can't say I disagree. But he'd find himself argued to death by many here in this forum.







DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 1:45:51 PM)

Hmmm... I didn't know the NRA was a multi-national organization...
[sm=blasted.gif]




JeffBC -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 2:05:47 PM)

Much as I'm pro-gun I gotta say I find this piece specious at best. If I wanted to control terrorism I'd start by not being such an ass on the world stage. Ignoring that bit of obviousness though, there is still the question of whether the cure is worse than the disease. I mean, in theory, what would really encourage those terrorists to go elsewhere would be if you gave everyone automatic weapons, psychedelics, and stimulants. Then you'd have a bunch of hopped up loonies with guns. No terrorist in their right mind would want to go there. Nor would anyone else.

If I was in a terrorist episode I'd probably prefer an armed populace. For the other 99.999999999999999% of the time though, I might well have other preferences. Let's be clear here... the number of US citizens killed by terrorist activity pales in comparison to all manner of things we accept without a second thought. On the long-term average you have about 600 annually give or take. The pharmaceutical industry accounts for 22,000 or so annually or roughly 3700% more in illegal drug usage alone. On the bright side, the terrorists have managed to beat out lightning strikes by about 10:1.

Bringing this comparison closer to the argument, the terrorists kill about the same number people annually as accidental gun discharges. Seems at best a wash.




BamaD -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 2:56:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Much as I'm pro-gun I gotta say I find this piece specious at best. If I wanted to control terrorism I'd start by not being such an ass on the world stage. Ignoring that bit of obviousness though, there is still the question of whether the cure is worse than the disease. I mean, in theory, what would really encourage those terrorists to go elsewhere would be if you gave everyone automatic weapons, psychedelics, and stimulants. Then you'd have a bunch of hopped up loonies with guns. No terrorist in their right mind would want to go there. Nor would anyone else.

If I was in a terrorist episode I'd probably prefer an armed populace. For the other 99.999999999999999% of the time though, I might well have other preferences. Let's be clear here... the number of US citizens killed by terrorist activity pales in comparison to all manner of things we accept without a second thought. On the long-term average you have about 600 annually give or take. The pharmaceutical industry accounts for 22,000 or so annually or roughly 3700% more in illegal drug usage alone. On the bright side, the terrorists have managed to beat out lightning strikes by about 10:1.

Bringing this comparison closer to the argument, the terrorists kill about the same number people annually as accidental gun discharges. Seems at best a wash.

I missed the part where he suggested psychedelics and stimulants.




BamaD -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 3:00:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Hmmm... I didn't know the NRA was a multi-national organization...
[sm=blasted.gif]

And maybe they have a point.




eulero83 -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 3:49:11 PM)

FR

yes it will be a hell of a fun when a group of random people confused in the crowd will start shooting and a mass of other scared armed people will start shooting whoever has a gun with no way to understand who the terrorist are.




KYsissy -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 4:10:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Much as I'm pro-gun I gotta say I find this piece specious at best. If I wanted to control terrorism I'd start by not being such an ass on the world stage. Ignoring that bit of obviousness though, there is still the question of whether the cure is worse than the disease. I mean, in theory, what would really encourage those terrorists to go elsewhere would be if you gave everyone automatic weapons, psychedelics, and stimulants. Then you'd have a bunch of hopped up loonies with guns. No terrorist in their right mind would want to go there. Nor would anyone else.

If I was in a terrorist episode I'd probably prefer an armed populace. For the other 99.999999999999999% of the time though, I might well have other preferences. Let's be clear here... the number of US citizens killed by terrorist activity pales in comparison to all manner of things we accept without a second thought. On the long-term average you have about 600 annually give or take. The pharmaceutical industry accounts for 22,000 or so annually or roughly 3700% more in illegal drug usage alone. On the bright side, the terrorists have managed to beat out lightning strikes by about 10:1.

Bringing this comparison closer to the argument, the terrorists kill about the same number people annually as accidental gun discharges. Seems at best a wash.


I am right there with you. Terroris acts will continue to happen. There really is nothing that can be done to stop them. Well there is, but i would rather leave things as they are and take my chances than live under the conditions needed to make sure another terrorist act does not happen. Every time there is shooting or an attack, it is sadly, a very short time before someone is clamoring for more laws to "make us safe". We will never be 100% safe.




Politesub53 -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 4:35:24 PM)

Armed citizens would be unable to stop a bomb attack in most cases.




BamaD -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 4:58:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

yes it will be a hell of a fun when a group of random people confused in the crowd will start shooting and a mass of other scared armed people will start shooting whoever has a gun with no way to understand who the terrorist are.

Why is it that some people have, as an article of faith, that the bad guys will hit what they aim at and the good guys will always hit the wrong person.




Politesub53 -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 5:01:09 PM)

Because even the good guys miss the target.




lovmuffin -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 5:35:01 PM)

The police miss their targets too. Not only that but it takes them time to get there.




BamaD -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 6:18:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

The police miss their targets too. Not only that but it takes them time to get there.

Everyone misses sometimes but some chance is better than no chance.




KYsissy -> RE: Interpol (10/22/2013 6:47:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Armed citizens would be unable to stop a bomb attack in most cases.


Of course. And if the individual is willing to die in the attempt, there is not a whole lot anyone can do to stop them. That is the Secret Service nigtmare scenario. You have a president in a crowd shaking hands and here is some wingnut who wants to die in the attempt. Very very difficult to stop that.




eulero83 -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 12:13:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

yes it will be a hell of a fun when a group of random people confused in the crowd will start shooting and a mass of other scared armed people will start shooting whoever has a gun with no way to understand who the terrorist are.

Why is it that some people have, as an article of faith, that the bad guys will hit what they aim at and the good guys will always hit the wrong person.


I'm just saying it's enough for the terrorist be dressed in casual attire and not begun shooting all at the same time in crossed directions, at that time it would be very hard to understand who is returning fire and who the terorrist are as there would be just people shootin in all the directions. Or has the "Army of the terror" an uniform? Second problem try stopping a bomb with a rifle.




joether -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 4:37:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
The police miss their targets too. Not only that but it takes them time to get there.

Everyone misses sometimes but some chance is better than no chance.


An when you miss and your opponent doesn't, he will now have your gun. He will be thankful that you just aided his cause.




joether -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 4:38:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
FR

yes it will be a hell of a fun when a group of random people confused in the crowd will start shooting and a mass of other scared armed people will start shooting whoever has a gun with no way to understand who the terrorist are.

Why is it that some people have, as an article of faith, that the bad guys will hit what they aim at and the good guys will always hit the wrong person.

I'm just saying it's enough for the terrorist be dressed in casual attire and not begun shooting all at the same time in crossed directions, at that time it would be very hard to understand who is returning fire and who the terorrist are as there would be just people shootin in all the directions. Or has the "Army of the terror" an uniform? Second problem try stopping a bomb with a rifle.


And when the guy with the bomb has NOTHING to lose and everything to gain from massive destruction.




Yachtie -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 4:50:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
The police miss their targets too. Not only that but it takes them time to get there.

Everyone misses sometimes but some chance is better than no chance.


An when you miss and your opponent doesn't, he will now have your gun. He will be thankful that you just aided his cause.


[8|]

The better to just give the target rich environment then. I find it idiotic that the the perp would be anticipatory to acquiring your gun. Like he's expecting to, and needs it.

Your level of argumentation, joether, is rich in irony.





eulero83 -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 6:19:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

The police miss their targets too. Not only that but it takes them time to get there.

Everyone misses sometimes but some chance is better than no chance.


More chance to do what? Raise the panic level? Endanger hostages? Get shot yourself? What does it mean missing the target in a crowded place? It means killing someone else!
Real life is not a movie from the "die hard" serie where you can get down a military helicopter with a car, if you have a strategic disadvantage you'd better stay calm, if they don't want to take hostages but just generate chaos than or you won't have a chance anyway as they will use a bomb, terrorist are not teenagers in a school massacre.




igor2003 -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 6:58:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I'm just saying it's enough for the terrorist be dressed in casual attire and not begun shooting all at the same time in crossed directions, at that time it would be very hard to understand who is returning fire and who the terorrist are as there would be just people shootin in all the directions. Personally, I think that most people (not trained police or military), regardless of whether they are armed or not, if they are near enough to recognize something as a gun attack but far enough away to not see the shooter, they are going to try to reach safety instead of getting into a gun battle. If they are close enough to the shooter to be in danger they will know who the terrorist is and know who to shoot at. Or has the "Army of the terror" an uniform? Second problem try stopping a bomb with a rifle. So what you are saying is that if you can't protect yourself from all terrorism you shouldn't attempt to protect yourself from any terrorism. Very wise of you.





eulero83 -> RE: Interpol (10/23/2013 7:47:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I'm just saying it's enough for the terrorist be dressed in casual attire and not begun shooting all at the same time in crossed directions, at that time it would be very hard to understand who is returning fire and who the terorrist are as there would be just people shootin in all the directions. Personally, I think that most people (not trained police or military), regardless of whether they are armed or not, if they are near enough to recognize something as a gun attack but far enough away to not see the shooter, they are going to try to reach safety instead of getting into a gun battle. If they are close enough to the shooter to be in danger they will know who the terrorist is and know who to shoot at. Or has the "Army of the terror" an uniform? Second problem try stopping a bomb with a rifle. So what you are saying is that if you can't protect yourself from all terrorism you shouldn't attempt to protect yourself from any terrorism. Very wise of you.




No what I meant is:
1) In a crowded and cahotical situation having more armed civilians can have a resuolt from none to raising the number of victims.
2) Telling arming citizens can protect from terrorist attacks on "soft targets" how they are called in the article is like telling a child to defend against a nuclear attack to "duck and cover"

to me the article sounds like "usa people don't stop shopping in malls, we are not a soft target like kenya"




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