A Third Gender ....? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 1:50:56 AM)

"Germany is set to become the first European country to add a third gender option to birth certificates.
Parents can choose between male, female or “blank” starting in November".
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/germany-gender-birth-certificates-article-1.1430859#ixzz2jTXYRc3J

Germany's new law, sponsored by the Greens Party, enables intersex children some measure of legal recognition, and some protection from invasive surgery aimed at "correcting Nature's mistakes", as the doctors concerned quaintly term it.

It's estimated somewhat less than 1% of infants are born with ambiguous genitialia, though no one knows the true figures. Traditionally in the West, these kids undergo massive surgeries and hormone treatments to bring their genitalia in line with 'normal' genitalia. Increasingly, intersex people are demanding an end to surgery being conducted on infants and their right to choose their own gender later on in life.

Is there a third gender? Or 4 or more? How should we regard those infants born with ambiguous genitalia? Given that people can change their sex surgically in adulthood, is gender that important anyway?

Your thoughts .....



RottenJohnny -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 1:59:45 AM)


Well, "blank" seems a lot easier to use than "sexually non-specific homo-sapien".



TigressLily -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 3:29:59 AM)


Hermaphrodites and other anatomically ambiguous-gender persons have been historically documented for millennia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

"Germany is set to become the first European country to add a third gender option to birth certificates.
Parents can choose between male, female or “blank” starting in November".


What I don't understand is why this wasn't done sooner in more progressive nations of the world. It isn't as though this hasn't been a recognized medical issue for a long while, one which has resulted in the genital mutilation of legions of children.

Chromosomally, an individual is either male (XY) or female (XX), regardless of genital appearance. In rare instances, there can be a third chromosome mutation. There have been studies done of males who have two "Y" chromosomes (XYY), linking them to hyper-aggressiveness, such as those conducted on a small population of murderers and violent sex offenders.

In most cases of anatomical "mutation," however, during the mother's third trimester, the androgen bath does not "take" on the male-designated fetus the way it should so then male genitalia does not form correctly. (All embryos are technically female until this androgen bath occurs.)

The term hermaphrodite, for those born with both male & female genitalia, originates from a combination of the Greek Hermes, messenger god of the mind/intellect & communications and the Greek Aphrodite, goddess of love & beauty in mythology. Their union produced Hermaphroditus. In classical times in ancient Greece, such an infant was considered specially touched by the gods and given up to be raised as temple devotees to the Great Goddess cults. In other cultures, affected male children were chosen to become eunuchs to guard harems. Even in the NT, when asked about celibacy, Jesus made reference to there being some men who are eunuchs by choice and then there are those who are "born eunuchs."



EdBowie -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 7:42:52 AM)

Intersex is a 3rd sex, not a 3rd gender.



TigressLily -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 8:10:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Intersex is a 3rd sex, not a 3rd gender.


EB, your technicality just made me realize I meant [end of] "mother's first trimester" or third month, not third trimester.



kdsub -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 9:37:46 AM)

Most open minded people answering this question at first thought would say let the person choose In their own good time.

But

On second thought may change their minds. Imagine the mental stress on this child as they grow knowing how different they are. Yes that may happen anyway but there is at least a 50 50 chane they will get it right with surgery. It is a tough all no matter which way it is done.

Butch



leonine -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 11:22:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Intersex is a 3rd sex, not a 3rd gender.

While it's technically true that "sex" is the term for living things and "gender" is a grammatical term, the latter has been used colloquially to mean "sex" for centuries, and that usage is pretty much established de facto (as for instance in the expression "transgender" as a preferred alternative to "transsexual.") I expect to see it recognised by the dictionaries before long.



EdBowie -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 1:34:35 PM)

This is about a medical determination on an official document at birth, where the medical profession universally recognizes 3 options, but the bureaucracy has not.

Anti-intellectualism may want the doctors to put 'dude', or 'chick' because they are in the dictionary as colloquialisms for all I care, in the real world it is 'Sex: M or F or I', not 'Gender' (which BTW is from sociology for learned roles, not a 'grammatical term', whatever that is supposed to mean)..



quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Intersex is a 3rd sex, not a 3rd gender.

While it's technically true that "sex" is the term for living things and "gender" is a grammatical term, the latter has been used colloquially to mean "sex" for centuries, and that usage is pretty much established de facto (as for instance in the expression "transgender" as a preferred alternative to "transsexual.") I expect to see it recognised by the dictionaries before long.




njlauren -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 7:52:23 PM)

This is where it gets interesting, terms like sex and gender are mixed up, used as the same and they aren't. Sex usually refers to the chromosomal makeup of a person and to a certain extent their genitals as well (I say that, because there are people who were born with let's say female genitals, who are XY or XYY or some such).

Gender generally refers to how the person identifies, what they feel they are, and that can be different than what the body says. Someone else mentioned the hormone baths that make a child what it is, there is a theory backed up by some evidence that if that hormone bath doesn't work right, a child can be born seemingly male or female, right chromosomes, etc, but identify as female or male, respectively, aka transgender people,experiments with mice where they fool with the hormonal bath in utero has shown results like that, plus brain structure of transgender people in certain areas suggest the gender dysphoria might be caused by brain structure.


The problem with intersex kids, when they have ambiguous genitals or both or whatever, is that the gender they are raised with is often decided by the parents or what the doctors tell them is the 'better option' based on prospects of surgery and such.....a lot of the time, even in this day and age, they will choose to raise it as a boy........the problem is, later on, the kid may not be in synch with that, I know about a half dozen intersex people where they made the wrong choice and later on transitioned into living as the other sex/gender (I mention sex because they might do the SRS). By putting none on the bc, it hopefully will make it easier as time goes on if the kid shows a preference one way or the other, to be able to more easily move into the gender they feel comfortable with.

There is a more subtle thing with gender, there are people who don't identify as either male or female, they fit some sort of in the middle one....



njlauren -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 7:59:17 PM)

Gender is usually defined as how we perceive ourselves, sex is the genetic and genital characteristics we have. In most people, sex and gender coincide, but it doesn't always happen. The idea of gender being a social construct has been blown out of the water (as opposed to gender roles, more on that in a second). Gender is brain wiring, and it isn't 'created', it isn't something that comes from what someone else tells us. There was a famous case 40 years ago, where a baby boy had its penis mangled, and the doctors convinced the parents it would be better to socialize and raise the child as a girl.The kid was under the care of a team of gender specialists, including Dr. John Money, they worked closely with the kid, they did everything to socialize it as a girl...and the kid was miserable, later on the kid transitioned to live as a male and later killed himself, despite everything they tried.


Gender roles might be more social than inate, although there have been some pretty good studies that indicate some things tend to come for boys and girls, based on studies across all kinds of social and ethnic groups, across the globe, where it is unlikely that cross contamination caused it, certain things seem to come with being a boy or a girl. But gender roles are not gender, a butch female who dresses in male clothes generally id's as a female, an effeminate gay male id's as male, and so forth...gender role is how it is expressed, not how they feel.



kdsub -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 9:14:14 PM)

All you say is true...but I know kids and you should too. When a child is different they are teased and it is very hurtful to child and parents. If I had a child as we are discussing I would take the doctors advice and take the best surgical option.

It could only result in two possibilities... One I choose right and the child experiences a normal life...two I am wrong and I counsel the child on how to deal with their sexuality...either way I think they would have the best chance of a normal childhood and personal development.

Say I do nothing and allow the child to choose when an adult... I would bet there are not many hermaphrodites that have had a well adjusted normal childhood unless home schooled and even then they will most likely be teased by friends. These children would be lucky to develop into well adjusted adults even after adult surgery.

I do understand both sides and am glad I did not have to make a decision of this type. I just hope people do not condemn those that make a surgical decision for their child. There are, I believe, valid if painful reasons.

Butch



tweakabelle -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 9:28:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

This is about a medical determination on an official document at birth, where the medical profession universally recognizes 3 options, but the bureaucracy has not.

Anti-intellectualism may want the doctors to put 'dude', or 'chick' because they are in the dictionary as colloquialisms for all I care, in the real world it is 'Sex: M or F or I', not 'Gender' (which BTW is from sociology for learned roles, not a 'grammatical term', whatever that is supposed to mean)..


Up to c200 years ago, western law and medicine recognised three statuses - male female and hermaphrodite. It should be noted that 'hermaphrodite' here referred to behavioural as well as purely physical traits - this was well before anyone dreamt up the catergories of hetero- or homo-sexual.

Then there occurred a debate, primarily in law and medicine, about the status of hermaphrodites, which was changed to psuedo-hermaphrodites ie they were no longer indeterminate, or a 'mixture' they were really M or F with some confusing bits. Since then medicine has taken unto itself the role of determining the 'true' underlying sex of 'pseudo-hermaphrodites'.

You will find a brief, but incisive discussion of the above by Foucault here. For a more comprehensive account see T. Lacquer, 'Making Sex'

While individual doctors may hold diverging opinions on this subject, the role of medicine to this day is to 'establish' or 'determine' the alleged true sex of the infant hermaphrodite. In difficult cases, this determining process resembles a lottery where all kinds of extraneous factors eg, parental preferences, social bias, even the medical background of the team leader become decisive factors. For an analysis of this process see here.



tweakabelle -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 9:38:02 PM)

quote:

The idea of gender being a social construct has been blown out of the water (as opposed to gender roles, more on that in a second). Gender is brain wiring, and it isn't 'created', it isn't something that comes from what someone else tells us. There was a famous case 40 years ago, where a baby boy had its penis mangled, and the doctors convinced the parents it would be better to socialize and raise the child as a girl.The kid was under the care of a team of gender specialists, including Dr. John Money, they worked closely with the kid, they did everything to socialize it as a girl...and the kid was miserable, later on the kid transitioned to live as a male and later killed himself, despite everything they tried.


It might be a tad rash to throw out the social construction of gender on this evidence.

The person in question, David Reimer, was 22 months old when the 'gender change' decision was taken and the process initiated. For those 22 months, Reimer's socialisation was purely masculine ie he was raised as a boy.

The theory of Core Gender Identity that Money and his contemporaries (notably Stoller)developed insisted that core gender identity development was complete, "fixed and immutable" by age 18-24 months. IOW Money among his many crimes, was flagrantly ignoring his own preaching in trying to change David's gender at 22 months.

Had Money applied his own theory correctly, the tragic decision to change David's gender would never have been taken.



EdBowie -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 9:50:18 PM)

Got any ancient treatises on the unique cranial structure of 'the Negro' to go with that obsolete pile of pedantry?

In other words 'We don't call people that any more, dearie', it isn't nice.





quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

This is about a medical determination on an official document at birth, where the medical profession universally recognizes 3 options, but the bureaucracy has not.

Anti-intellectualism may want the doctors to put 'dude', or 'chick' because they are in the dictionary as colloquialisms for all I care, in the real world it is 'Sex: M or F or I', not 'Gender' (which BTW is from sociology for learned roles, not a 'grammatical term', whatever that is supposed to mean)..


Up to c200 years ago, western law and medicine recognised three statuses - male female and hermaphrodite. It should be noted that 'hermaphrodite' here referred to behavioural as well as purely physical traits - this was well before anyone dreamt up the catergories of hetero- or homo-sexual.

Then there occurred a debate, primarily in law and medicine, about the status of hermaphrodites, which was changed to psuedo-hermaphrodites ie they were no longer indeterminate, or a 'mixture' they were really M or F with some confusing bits. Since then medicine has taken unto itself the role of determining the 'true' underlying sex of 'pseudo-hermaphrodites'.

You will find a brief, but incisive discussion of the above by Foucault here. For a more comprehensive account see T. Lacquer, 'Making Sex'

While individual doctors may hold diverging opinions on this subject, the role of medicine to this day is to 'establish' or 'determine' the alleged true sex of the infant hermaphrodite. In difficult cases, this determining process resembles a lottery where all kinds of extraneous factors eg, parental preferences, social bias, even the medical background of the team leader become decisive factors. For an analysis of this process see here.




EdBowie -> RE: A Third Gender ....? (11/2/2013 9:52:51 PM)

So the older feral children who have periodically been found, in other words humans who have never been socialized, knew what their gender roles were because it's hard wired? Society plays zero role?

I think you are making stuff up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

Gender is usually defined as how we perceive ourselves, sex is the genetic and genital characteristics we have. In most people, sex and gender coincide, but it doesn't always happen. The idea of gender being a social construct has been blown out of the water (as opposed to gender roles, more on that in a second). Gender is brain wiring, and it isn't 'created', it isn't something that comes from what someone else tells us. There was a famous case 40 years ago, where a baby boy had its penis mangled, and the doctors convinced the parents it would be better to socialize and raise the child as a girl.The kid was under the care of a team of gender specialists, including Dr. John Money, they worked closely with the kid, they did everything to socialize it as a girl...and the kid was miserable, later on the kid transitioned to live as a male and later killed himself, despite everything they tried.


Gender roles might be more social than inate, although there have been some pretty good studies that indicate some things tend to come for boys and girls, based on studies across all kinds of social and ethnic groups, across the globe, where it is unlikely that cross contamination caused it, certain things seem to come with being a boy or a girl. But gender roles are not gender, a butch female who dresses in male clothes generally id's as a female, an effeminate gay male id's as male, and so forth...gender role is how it is expressed, not how they feel.




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