Somewhere over the gaybow... (Full Version)

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MalcolmNathaniel -> Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 3:10:51 AM)

OK, so this has bothered me for a while.

I am straight and I like musicals. One of my favorites is "The Wizard of Oz." I don't know whether it's the media or the gay overlords. One way or another liking that musical has become a signal for being gay. For G-ds sake why?!

Listen folks, you have not lived until you've heard Nathan Lane on Broadway. He's a brilliant performer. So why do musicals have the stigma of being gay? In particular why does The Wizard of Oz have that?

So I am going to say it flat out: I am straight and I like the movie with the munchkins in it. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.




MasterCaneman -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 7:55:51 AM)

I'm going to repeat a story my mom told me a few years ago. In the late 40's-early 50's, before she met my father, she moved to NYC for a few months to see if the could "make it there". She got a job as an elevator operator and ticket-taker for a theater, and in short order, was on the fringes of the arts community in that town.

She made the acquaintance of a number of gay men simply due to the fact that many bars and restaurants refused to serve them if they came in alone or with a male partner, so she ended up going out on a lot of "dates" with them to defuse that situation. She told me that many of the producers relied on the male homosexual community for their shows for a number of reasons. Most were thin or small-statured, many were deemed unfit for military service for a number of reasons, they generally tended to be good dancers and were very style conscious.

One of the biggest reasons, she said, was that they couldn't get pregnant, something that happened with alarming regularity when the Atlantic Fleet pulled into town. She used the term "Shakespearean" when she told me that it was common for producers and directors to use the more feminine-appearing men to 'fill-in' for backup dancers and singers on stage when they'd lose a girl to some sailor.

They tended to be more reliable when showing up for rehearsals for the simple fact that they were subject to employment discrimination almost everywhere else, and had a lot more stamina for some of the more energetic routines and scenery changes. They were also better able to fill out roles for both genders as required in each scene. One minute they could be a wandering townsman, the next they could be in a gown and wig giving backup vocals and doing a dance number, and in between, they'd help out by working the ropes behind the stage. It all boiled down to dollars and cents, she said. One actor could fill several different roles in a production and was less likely to call in because her husband or boyfriend was in town, she had her "friend" show up, or got pregnant and had to quit on doctor's orders.

Again, this is told second-hand, but she was there and I've seen the pictures she had from her sojourn in the Big Apple. About 25 years ago, one of her friends from that time came and visited her, and he was a really nice man. Definition of a gentleman, well-spoken and articulate, and I listened a bit while they mulled over old times. I wish I could remember his name, because I do believe he became something of a fixture in that business before retiring, but I can't ask her directly now, because yesterday was the first anniversary of her passing, so you'll just have to take this story on faith. She was there, and that's what she always talked about when she watched 'em on AMC before she started going blind and deaf.





Zonie63 -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 9:05:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

OK, so this has bothered me for a while.

I am straight and I like musicals. One of my favorites is "The Wizard of Oz." I don't know whether it's the media or the gay overlords. One way or another liking that musical has become a signal for being gay. For G-ds sake why?!

Listen folks, you have not lived until you've heard Nathan Lane on Broadway. He's a brilliant performer. So why do musicals have the stigma of being gay? In particular why does The Wizard of Oz have that?

So I am going to say it flat out: I am straight and I like the movie with the munchkins in it. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


I'm straight, and I liked "The Wizard of Oz," but to be honest, I never associated it with being gay. I don't understand why there's any stigma attached to it. MasterCaneman's explanation makes sense, although that doesn't explain why those who merely like musicals would be a signal for being gay.

I guess I'm kind of neutral on musicals overall. In some ways, I find them kind of silly that they break into song and dance routines at odd times during the production. I would sometimes imagine what it would be like if people did that in real life situations.

Like if you're in a restaurant and someone at the next table starts singing and dancing, and then everyone else in the restaurant joins in. It would certainly be a happy world, and "happy" is another word for "gay."

So, maybe it just means that people who like musicals are happy.




TNDommeK -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 10:02:44 AM)

Musicals are wonderful. I've seen quite a few and love them.
Just bc you love musicals doesn't make you gay.
To me it says you....like musicals. Lol




FelineRanger -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 10:05:21 AM)

Part of the stereotype has to do with the fact that there has always been much better opportunities for gays to find employment on stage than anywhere else and the theater community is very supportive of its own. So you wind up with a higher proportion of out gays going to musicals and to Broadway in general. That being said, I am straight and enjoy musicals as well. My father attempted to make a go of it on Broadway and didn't get very far. But he never lost his love for musicals and introduced me to them. Personally, I would say that if another individual is bothered by the fact that you like musicals, tell them to pull the stick out of their ass. The "opinion" of the media is utterly worthless as all they do is lurch from one absurdity to the next in the unending quest for ratings. And who are the "gay overlords" anyway?




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 10:21:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Musicals are wonderful. I've seen quite a few and love them.
Just bc you love musicals doesn't make you gay.
To me it says you....like musicals. Lol




Not all musicals are wonderful. "West Side Story" springs to mind. I really despise that one. I think that Wizard was co-opted because of the rainbow. The rainbow came from Wizard in the first place.

I do not want any of this to suggest that I don't like gay people. Gay people are just like everyone else: 90% of them are assholes. My favorite uncle is gay and his house is decorated as a shrine to "The Wizard of Oz." OK, that was a non-sequitar. But it's also pretty damned cool. There are certain scenes that can only be seen if you are standing in the right spot.




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 10:27:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger
And who are the "gay overlords" anyway?


Sorry, I couldn't find the right word at the time. I didn't intend for it to sound like some sort of conspiracy theory. I wanted to say something along the lines of, "the gay civil rights leaders" but I couldn't find the words at the time, nor would it have sounded right.




jlf1961 -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 10:40:06 AM)

Moulan Rouge was pretty good, I mean a nice percentage of Nicole Kidman uncovered




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 10:48:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Moulan Rouge was pretty good, I mean a nice percentage of Nicole Kidman uncovered


Nicole Kidman mostly naked for most of the film. Why didn't I think of that first?




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 11:05:42 AM)

FR~

I really hate musicals.
A lot of them have damned good storylines too.
But to me, all that prancing and singing just spoils it.

And to why some have been reclassified to the gay scene, I have no idea.
Absurd.




outlier -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 11:46:28 AM)

I really enjoy musicals. From Showboat in the late 30's
up through Sondheim some of the best music has come
from musicals.

There is a level of richness about he human experience;
a level of wit and sophistication that musicals do better
than any other artistic medium.

I would never deprive myself of these experiences because
of what some ignorant fool might think or say.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 12:40:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
I would never deprive myself of these experiences because
of what some ignorant fool might think or say.

You can get that same level of experience, good storyline and morals and even the songs, without all the prancing about and spoiling the flow of it.

Not ignorant and not a fool.
I just don't like seeing a good story, either on stage or on film, spoiled by inane (and often unnecessary) music and dancing.
Just like watching any good sporting event (whatever sport you follow), you don't need that incessant and annoying commentator drumming in your ears when you watch it on TV.
You can enjoy the whole thing, with all the entertainment and singing and dancing much better without said commentator.




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 1:27:14 PM)

You probably haven't actually seen a good musical. What the singing and dancing often do is prevent lengthy exposition by condensing it. Now, that is not always the case, but it should give you a good idea of it.

Phantom of the Opera would be cheating because it's all about music to begin with. So I'm going to go off grid and mention the Broadway revival of "Guys and Dolls." Nathan Lane and Faith Prince stole the show playing minor characters. They told a story of about twenty years in three minutes and there wasn't a dry eye in the house - myself included.




outlier -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 1:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
I would never deprive myself of these experiences because
of what some ignorant fool might think or say.

You can get that same level of experience, good storyline and morals and even the songs, without all the prancing about and spoiling the flow of it.



I take it from this that it is the dancing you do not appreciate.

quote:

ORIGINAL freedomdwarf1

Not ignorant and not a fool.
I just don't like seeing a good story, either on stage or on film, spoiled by inane (and often unnecessary) music and dancing.


Nobody likes "inane" music and dancing. That is not the same thing at all as labeling all singing
and dancing as "inane". An obvious point of logic, but your response requires it.

quote:

ORIGINAL freedomdwarf1

Just like watching any good sporting event (whatever sport you follow), you don't need that incessant and annoying commentator drumming in your ears when you watch it on TV.
You can enjoy the whole thing, with all the entertainment and singing and dancing much better without said commentator.



Now you have changed the comment and you are OK with the singing and the dancing?
I am afraid your analogy is inconsistent with the rest of your statement. So I cannot
respond.

I stand by my original statement. Anyone who is unable to appreciate a good musical
and, in keeping with the OP, thinks that labeling them as "gay" is appropriate is showing
ignorance and being a fool. Therefor I refuse to be deprived of the richness musicals can
give me because of name calling.





Winterapple -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 1:49:05 PM)

Liking musicals doesn't mean a man is gay.
Liking The Wizard of Oz doesn't mean a man
is gay. But that said The Wizard of Oz is one of
the gayest movies ever made. Not intentionally,
not made solely by gay people for gay people but
a very gay movie.

First off it stars one of the twentieth centuries greatest
gay cultural icons Judy Garland(rumored to have been
bisexual herself). The expression friend of Dorothy's is
slang for being gay. The story itself has underpinnings
that relate to the gay experience. Dorothy having to flee
the farm and her family and making a substitute family
of other outsiders etc. Gay people identify with aspects
of the movie that straight people might not. That doesn't
mean you have to be gay to love and appreciate it.

Of course not all men involved in musical theater are gay
but they are certainly well represented in all facets of it.
Some of the greatest names in musical theater are and
were gay and bisexual men. Cole Porter, Noel Coward,
Stephen Sondheim, Lorenz Hart, Jerome Robbins, Moss
Hart, Michael Bennett to name a few.

Show business has and has always had a great many
gay, lesbian and bisexual people in its ranks as performers
and behind the scenes talent. The gypsy life of show business
has always been a natural place for many gay people fleeing
the restraints of small town life. The arts in general have been
enriched since ancient times by a healthy representation of
gay people.

When you said gay overlords I assumed you meant the so
called gay mafia. Whoever you meant you're confused.
I suggest you watch the documentary The Celluloid Closet
or read the book by the same name by Vito Russo. Gay people
aren't claiming The Wizard of Oz or musicals or certain movies
in the way you seem to imagine. Nor do all gay people love
The Wizard of Oz or musicals or Bette Davis movies. Just like
there are straight men who love musicals there are gay men
who hate them.

I will say that are more gay men active in my local theater
community than there are straight men. And it's mostly
gay guys who perform in the musical productions. But there
are plenty of straight men in the audience watching the shows.

And West Side Story is not only a great musical it's one of
the greatest musicals ever.




Winterapple -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 1:54:37 PM)

Nathan Lane is a great performer and openly gay.
The lead male role in some of the biggest musicals
of the last couple of decades have been performed
by gay men. Not all of course but quite a few.




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 2:06:20 PM)

I was with you right up until you said this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
And West Side Story is not only a great musical it's one of
the greatest musicals ever.





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 2:12:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
I would never deprive myself of these experiences because
of what some ignorant fool might think or say.

You can get that same level of experience, good storyline and morals and even the songs, without all the prancing about and spoiling the flow of it.


I take it from this that it is the dancing you do not appreciate.

I've watched quite a lot of musicals (though not many of late I must admit) and cringed when the 'musical' bit comes on.
I find the singing and dancing (both) extremely off-putting and spoil the flow of the story.
As an example: the (in)famous bit in the Wizard Of Oz; the beginning of that song "we're off to see the wizard, the wondeful wizard of Oz...". That, in itself, was quite entertaining. The rest of it and the repeated choruses was just wasting time and uninteresting to me.... It really spoiled the following bit of the performance.
Nice catchy song. Could have been put in the credits at the end along with all the others.
A local school put on a stage version of the Wizard of Oz; they also did a reproduction of Cats.
It was done as a drama production rather than a musical and it was fucking brilliant - both of them!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
quote:

ORIGINAL freedomdwarf1
Not ignorant and not a fool.
I just don't like seeing a good story, either on stage or on film, spoiled by inane (and often unnecessary) music and dancing.

Nobody likes "inane" music and dancing. That is not the same thing at all as labeling all singing
and dancing as "inane". An obvious point of logic, but your response requires it.

Nope. It didn't require it at all.
It's just a personal thing that I find the singing and dancing in otherwise good stories to be annoying to the point of distraction. Ergo, inane and pointless.
If you like it, fine. I'm just saying that I don't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
quote:

ORIGINAL freedomdwarf1
Just like watching any good sporting event (whatever sport you follow), you don't need that incessant and annoying commentator drumming in your ears when you watch it on TV.
You can enjoy the whole thing, with all the entertainment and singing and dancing much better without said commentator.


Now you have changed the comment and you are OK with the singing and the dancing?
I am afraid your analogy is inconsistent with the rest of your statement. So I cannot
respond.

I haven't changed anything.
Bad analogy, maybe.
What I'm saying is that any singing and dancing is fine... in the appropriate place.
Take an NFL game (or something similar), having all that entertainment in a break is fine and mostly enjoyable.
Now imagine that same game where all the players suddenly stop playing football every 10 minutes and all burst into a song and dance routine with the ref and linesmen for 6-7 minutes before continuing the game as if nothing had happened.
Then to repeat that again with another song and dance some few minutes later.
And keep repeating the same annoying stuff all through the game until it finally finishes.
Would you say that was enjoyable?
I certainly wouldn't. I'd want to see the game - even with all the razzamajazz in the interlude.


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier
I stand by my original statement. Anyone who is unable to appreciate a good musical
and, in keeping with the OP, thinks that labeling them as "gay" is appropriate is showing
ignorance and being a fool. Therefor I refuse to be deprived of the richness musicals can
give me because of name calling.

Now please tell me where I said it was 'gay'??
I actually said the gay reference was absurd.




jlf1961 -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 2:57:39 PM)

It may be because I am old, but I see no one mentioned Oh Calcutta.




kalikshama -> RE: Somewhere over the gaybow... (11/4/2013 4:34:05 PM)

FR,

The only musical I like is "Rocky Horror Picture Show."

My man is straight and has a much better fashion sense than I do. For example, I'm happy to be back in Massachusetts where I can wear flannel for much more of the year than when I was in South Florida. (He dresses me when we go out.)




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