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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/16/2013 2:04:12 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caelestis

From someone who is usually the one tied up instead of doing the tying, I really prefer hemp or jute. Especially if there is going to be suspension involved. Not only do I love the feel of it, it seems the knots tighten up less when pressure is applied, which I think someone touched upon briefly. Also, you can get it in LOTS of colors, and even customize it by dying it yourself if you can't find the exact color you want. I've even seen some multicolored stuff that's drool worthy. However I do know a few people that don't like the "scratchy" feel of it.

Natural fibre ropes are the riskiest rope to suspend someone from. As lovely as it may look, hemp and jute have had no conformance testing and therefore not appropriate for safety related operations. I know a lot of Newashis suspend from jute and hemp and that the good Newashis use back up but even so, the hemp/jute suspension incident pit is alarming.

We have done some rigorous testing on hemp and jute and even we were surprised just how easily 9mm untreated rope broke under pressure. Any process (oiling, singing, washing, dying) you do to natural fibre rope will compromise its strength. Dying these ropes may make the rope look pretty but hugely compromises its integrity.

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/16/2013 10:59:44 PM

lovethyself

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MariaB, did you happen to write up your testing and findings? I would love to see some of that. Considering I'm more often than not a bottom, I would really like to be able to make informed judgements about what's being done with my body, and how. Do you have a link to your results?

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/17/2013 12:27:44 AM

MariaB

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Hiya lovethyself, the problem with putting out a BDSM peer review is, everyone pisses on it. No, we haven't published papers, not because we are worried about the pissing contest but because we haven't been able to do the further testing thats required to back up our findings so far. We need certain machinery for that and until we visit the UK and visit our friend who has access to this machinery, we can't finish this testing.

I can tell you about a simulation we did which involved small mass moving at high speed and abruptly stopping. The simulation was that of a person weighing 160lbs and falling 2ft onto an anchor point. Shock loads onto that anchor point peaked at 1,700lbs force. The anchor point in this case was a certified carabiner and this force didn't approach the gears load limit.

The results of the hemp rope drops were more worrying. Brand new, untreated (at its strongest) 9mm hemp rope, carrying 160lbs, broke at the end of a 40 inch fall. Further testing was done with 4 anchors and four ropes suspending a weight of 160lbs, the fall was halted again at 40 inches. The shock loads were over two tons and all four ropes broke catastrophically.

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/17/2013 6:16:43 AM

lovethyself

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Thanks. I'm not anywhere near the level of suspensions, but I'm learning with that as a possible direction in the future. You've given me some valuable information. It's definitely something to consider and weigh against what I'm taught by experienced people here. I wonder how many of them have tested shock loads.... I'll have to ask at the workshop on Tuesday. It's all about the care and cleaning of your equipment.

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/17/2013 9:09:20 AM

MariaB

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If they tell you its ok because two heavy men have swung off it, just walk away!!

If you are going to be a rope bunny just play on the side of caution. Certified equipment will always be far safer than uncertified equipment and two anchor points will always give you a back up if one breaks.

Over the past five years its become more and more fashionable to use thinner hemp and jute as it looks more aesthetically pleasing. The thinner the natural fibre rope is, the more likely it is to break when under pressure and it really doesn't take much. Using a bite as a turning point with any rope is a really, really bad idea in suspension and so is a dynamic lift.

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/17/2013 6:53:52 PM

lovethyself

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I have a couple of friends that are (non kink) event riggers for concerts and such. While I've not done the homework for myself yet (and wouldn't fly gear without someone checking my work), I do have some idea of safety margins. I would definitely be talking to them about loads and safety before I participated in any suspensions. I need to be able to satisfy myself that what's being done is safe. I don't have it in me to trust someone elses experience without me being able to judge for myself (and have my judgement be an informed one, even if it's all theory to me).

I already get some looks because my first workshop I was disecting the knot he showed us, and expaining how it has the potential to collapse if pressure is applied *here*.... This was one-on-one afterwards of course. I'm fine with that though.

I'll keep the nicely scratchy jute for floor work (about the only thing my speed currently).

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/18/2013 2:57:13 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself

I have a couple of friends that are (non kink) event riggers for concerts and such. While I've not done the homework for myself yet (and wouldn't fly gear without someone checking my work), I do have some idea of safety margins. I would definitely be talking to them about loads and safety before I participated in any suspensions. I need to be able to satisfy myself that what's being done is safe. I don't have it in me to trust someone elses experience without me being able to judge for myself (and have my judgement be an informed one, even if it's all theory to me).

I already get some looks because my first workshop I was disecting the knot he showed us, and expaining how it has the potential to collapse if pressure is applied *here*.... This was one-on-one afterwards of course. I'm fine with that though.

I'll keep the nicely scratchy jute for floor work (about the only thing my speed currently).

Unfortunately you won't be popular at many of the rope workshops if you ask too many pertinent questions but please carry on. There are far too many professed rigging experts that can talk the talk whilst putting people in direct danger.

Knowing professional riggers is hugely beneficial. Steve, my husband, is a professional rigger and he also loves suspending our girl and even though she's a sparrow of a girl, the precautions he takes are the same precautions he would take on a mountain rescue. He always says, there are no half measures. This isn't about spoiling peoples fun, its about enhancing it with the assurance that nobody is going to get seriously hurt.

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RE: Rope? What Rope? - 11/20/2013 9:23:20 AM

MercTech

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Natural fibre ropes are the riskiest rope to suspend someone from. As lovely as it may look, hemp and jute have had no conformance testing and therefore not appropriate for safety related operations. I know a lot of Newashis suspend from jute and hemp and that the good Newashis use back up but even so, the hemp/jute suspension incident pit is alarming.

We have done some rigorous testing on hemp and jute and even we were surprised just how easily 9mm untreated rope broke under pressure. Any process (oiling, singing, washing, dying) you do to natural fibre rope will compromise its strength. Dying these ropes may make the rope look pretty but hugely compromises its integrity.

Hmmm, MariaB, your mention of testing has me thinking of suspension and safety. Harking back to OSHA guidelines for safe tie off points a 200lb (about 100 kilo) reference man needs a 5000 lb rated tie off point for safety. Not for the weight of the man but to withstand the impulse loading from a fall. And a bondage suspension doesn't have a brake on the like the lanyard for a safety harness. (Ok, now I'm going to be figuring how to incorporate a DBI Sala safety harness into a Shibari configuration)

Doing a quick check of what I had for labeling in the shop I found nominal loading specs as follows:
3/8 twisted polypropylene (yellow & magenta) 1500lbs
1/4: parachute cord (dacron core, nylon outer) 1750lbs
3/8 Dacron (woven) 2500lbs
3/8 Hemp 500lbs

Now, this is off manufacturers labels. I may get motivated enough to check out the specs in a rigger's field reference later. And in this instance, I use the term "rigger" to refer to the industrial rigger that hooks up extremely heavy loads for a crane to lift. Getting the balance point right on anything other than a evenly loaded box is for the professionals.

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Post #: 48