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Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 4:30:25 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
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As of Monday: Enrollment less than 49,100. This number includes medicare patients from a number of states.
The enrollment is 3% of the value the administration expected at this point 49k compared to 1.4 million.

And of course.. the elephant is the room.. is still the 50 million people that will lose insurance.

Younger people are not signing up.
Costs are way higher than predicted.
Fewer people covered.

Just the tip of the iceberg. Yet the dimocrats will insist: "Onward, Titanic!"



per http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/11/usa-healthcare-enrollment-idUSL2N0IW0XX20131111?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssHealthcareNews&rpc=22

i
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RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 4:36:58 AM   
SweetAnise


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OMG already it has only been over a month. Calm down.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 4:44:27 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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I would not have signed up if I still lived in the US largely because the enrolment site for california looked more like a scam than anything else. I went there. It gave me no useful data. It asked for a lot of personal data. To this day I still have no idea what an insurance plan would cost me if I still lived there.

No matter what I may think of the ACA, at the technical level I'd certainly say "epic fail".

_____________________________

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RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 4:48:53 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetAnise

OMG already it has only been over a month. Calm down.


Laughing - its not me thats panicking sweetheart.

Obamacare predicted 30 million -- oops 7 million people. After the first month they were supposed to have 1.4 million.

(in reply to SweetAnise)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 5:06:06 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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How many people have enrolled in Obamacare from Oregon...



Zero.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 5:12:40 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
Indeed. From "the most transparent administration" in history, we've endured:

"We have to pass it to see what's in it"

"If you like your plan, you'll be able to keep it"

"If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor" (It turns out lots of doctors won't participate in Obummercare. So, your doctor isn't keeping you.)

"We're going to make sure as many Americans as is possible will be covered. This will be universal healthcare" (Little did we realize that the first part of the statement is indeed true because we'd be forced, by law, to buy something)

"Insurance rates will drop, dramatically"

"This will control healthcare costs"

With the exceptions that I placed in parenthesis, this law has accomplished NONE of this. It is, indeed and epic failure.

Now, the PPLs are trying to tell us: "oh, we're just getting started it will get better" Why the fuck should we believe that?

I'm reminded of Yachtie's avatar.





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Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 5:29:03 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

How many people have enrolled in Obamacare from Oregon...



Zero.


Actually....you are wrong...No one has signed up for private insurance, because its not up and running yet, BUT

Though Oregon's health insurance exchange is not yet up and running, the number of uninsured is already dropping thanks to new fast-track enrollment for the Oregon Health Plan.

The low-income, Medicaid-funded program has already signed up 56,000 new people, cutting the state's number of uninsured by 10 percent, according to Oregon Health Authority officials.

Though the new exchange called Cover Oregon was originally intended to be used for Oregon Health Plan enrollment, the online marketplace doesn't work yet. Instead, new Oregon Health Plan members are being enrolled using a fast-track process that was approved by the federal government in August.

Since late September the Oregon Health Authority sent out notices to 260,000 people already enrolled in the state's food stamps program since late October.

The notices informed them that based on their income reported to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, they are pre-qualified for the Oregon Health Plan in 2014. Most of them are newly eligible thanks to the state's decision to expand the program's income caps under the federal Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

To enroll, all they have to do is make a phone call or send a form consenting to be enrolled. So far, 56,000 people have done that, coming on top of more than 600,000 already enrolled.

Under the new Oregon Health Plan income eligibility rules, in 2014 individuals must earn 138 percent of the federal poverty level or less to qualify, as compared to the 100 percent cutoff this year. The new cap means monthly income of $1,322 for an individual,$1,784 for a household of two, $2,247 for a household of three, and $2,704 for a family of four.

Another change likely to boost enrollment: under new rules mandated by the federal health law, savings or property is no longer a bar to membership; application is now based strictly on income for the month in which someone applies.

Many of the new enrollees are likely to have pent-up health needs. A survey of 38,000 people on the Oregon Health Plan waiting list in 2012 found 11 percent had diabetes, 8 percent heart problems, 30 percent high blood pressure, 22 percent high cholesterol and 5 percent cancer.
Yesterday I wrote about Oregon's big success signing people up for Obamacare: The state had, in the course of 17 days, signed up 56,000 people for the health law's Medicaid expansion. In one fell swoop, the state had cut its uninsured rate by 10 percent.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2013/10/oregon_has_cut_tally_of_those.html


From Wapo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/18/the-other-side-of-obamacares-oregon-success-no-one-has-bought-private-insurance/


Yesterday I wrote about Oregon's big success signing people up for Obamacare: The state had, in the course of 17 days, signed up 56,000 people for the health law's Medicaid expansion. In one fell swoop, the state had cut its uninsured rate by 10 percent.
That is, however, only part of the story from Oregon. When it comes to private insurance, spokeswoman Amy Fauver said that it has not yet had any sign-ups.
"While we wish we were in a different place with our technology, we're implementing the contingencies we need to make sure no Oregonians get left behind," she said.
Cover Oregon decided Sept. 30, the day before the marketplace went live, that the software it uses to determine who qualifies for financial aid was coming up with too many errors to go live. It decided instead that it would process applications manually. Those applications have begun filtering in and determinations will likely go out later this month.
"They'll start hearing from us in the next week or two what about what their next step is," Fauver said. "We have staff trained to do that determination."
However, Fauver said that no Oregon health plan has received an enrollment through the marketplace. She declined to comment on the number of applications submitted to the marketplace, saying her department is "still working through the data to to arrive at a number we can stand by." It's possible that some of the applications could be incomplete, or represent multiple people. Cover Oregon doesn't know because they're still pending manual processing.
Oregon initially projected that 7,000 people would sign up for private coverage this month. Fauver wouldn't say whether that number still seems reasonable, with 12 days left to go in the month.
"It's too soon to say," she said. "We're working with our developers around the clock to get this fixed. We're not where we want to be, but we think we'll be able to get there soon."
How could so many people sign up for the Medicaid expansion, and not a single person enroll in private insurance? It mostly has to do with how simple the Medicaid sign-up was: The state sent out notices to about 260,000 people who already receive public benefits and were below 138 percent of the federal poverty line, the cut-off for the Medicaid expansion.
To enroll, they simply had to call a phone number or return a form to the state.
"It simplified the process and that made a huge dent," Fauver said. "We're extremely thrilled about that, and expect the number to go up in coming weeks."

It would be nice if you could get the difference between obamacare, or the ACA and PRIVATE Insurance.......




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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 5:37:17 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
FR

Is Obamacare actually medical insurance? Or is Obamacare actually a government mandated and controlled marketplace for health care services?

I recently, 2 weeks ago, had the front end of my automobile taken off by a Ford F-250. Insurance, his insurance, is paying for the catastrophic loss I incurred. The car was totaled.

Juxtapose that against an, for instance, like Obamacare, automotive services marketplace where such as oil changes, tire replacement, engine tune-ups, and belt replacements are covered. Like getting my car birth control or going to the mechanic because my car is ill, sputtering and having no power, as it needs some tender loving care. A $120 service bill where I pay only $10. The co-pay.

Is Obamacare actually insurance?



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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 6:57:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As of Monday: Enrollment less than 49,100. This number includes medicare patients from a number of states.
The enrollment is 3% of the value the administration expected at this point 49k compared to 1.4 million.
And of course.. the elephant is the room.. is still the 50 million people that will lose insurance.
Younger people are not signing up.
Costs are way higher than predicted.
Fewer people covered.
Just the tip of the iceberg. Yet the dimocrats will insist: "Onward, Titanic!"
per http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/11/usa-healthcare-enrollment-idUSL2N0IW0XX20131111?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssHealthcareNews&rpc=22
i


Considering the website issues, I'm not surprised the numbers are low. I doubt the signups will hit the mark by April, and that will likely be partially due to technical issues with the website and other issues, too. For instance, Ohio hasn't expanded Medicaid. Gov. Kasich supports expansion but there aren't enough votes within the House or Senate for expansion. Until it's determined who is or who will be covered, in Ohio, by Medicaid, it's going to be very difficult to expect those who might be covered to sign up for private insurance until that's been determined.

I am of mixed feelings about the timeline of healthcare.gov. Part of me isn't surprised that it was opened up so people can start getting an idea at what they are going to be paying before 2014 elections. Part of me is surprised that it was rolled out with only 3 months for people to sign up (technically 6 months since you can go 3 months without insurance before you have to pay the fine) before the penalties start to accrue. That isn't enough time, imo, for people to sign up and for working the kinks out (not the good kind of kinks).

I think the mandate will be delayed by a year, which will be ironic, considering the House passed a bill, on September 30th, that funded government but delayed the mandate by a year and nixed the subsidies for Federal employees. If the mandate is delayed, then more blame for the shutdown will fall on Democrats. 2014 is going to be an ugly year for election campaigns.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 8:26:34 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline
Why is everyone excited that the web site won't be fixed and you won't be able to sign up by so and so date? Obamacare said you cannot be refused insurance for a pre-existing condition. If thats true, if you get sick or need expensive medical care, that is a PRE-EXISTING condition! If you then apply for insurance, they CANNOT refuse you or make you pay any more because of your condition.

Liberals love to expouse about "spreading the wealth" except when it comes from THEIR wealth! I really don't see the young, (who don't feel they really need healthcare at this stage of their lives) willing to pay extra to subsidize healthcare for older people.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 8:35:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Why is everyone excited that the web site won't be fixed and you won't be able to sign up by so and so date? Obamacare said you cannot be refused insurance for a pre-existing condition. If thats true, if you get sick or need expensive medical care, that is a PRE-EXISTING condition! If you then apply for insurance, they CANNOT refuse you or make you pay any more because of your condition.
Liberals love to expouse about "spreading the wealth" except when it comes from THEIR wealth! I really don't see the young, (who don't feel they really need healthcare at this stage of their lives) willing to pay extra to subsidize healthcare for older people.


There is a tax penalty for each month you aren't covered in a year. The first year, it's $95 or 1% of your earnings, whichever is greater... per month. The penalty is waived if you are not covered by insurance for 3 months or fewer.

So, yes, you can wait until you are sick and then jump into the ranks of the insured, but you'll have to pay a tax penalty. That's why there is this whole "so and so date" thing.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 8:42:19 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

How many people have enrolled in Obamacare from Oregon...



Zero.


Actually....you are wrong...No one has signed up for private insurance, because its not up and running yet, BUT

Though Oregon's health insurance exchange is not yet up and running, the number of uninsured is already dropping thanks to new fast-track enrollment for the Oregon Health Plan.

The low-income, Medicaid-funded program has already signed up 56,000 new people, cutting the state's number of uninsured by 10 percent, according to Oregon Health Authority officials.

Though the new exchange called Cover Oregon was originally intended to be used for Oregon Health Plan enrollment, the online marketplace doesn't work yet. Instead, new Oregon Health Plan members are being enrolled using a fast-track process that was approved by the federal government in August.

Since late September the Oregon Health Authority sent out notices to 260,000 people already enrolled in the state's food stamps program since late October.

The notices informed them that based on their income reported to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, they are pre-qualified for the Oregon Health Plan in 2014. Most of them are newly eligible thanks to the state's decision to expand the program's income caps under the federal Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

To enroll, all they have to do is make a phone call or send a form consenting to be enrolled. So far, 56,000 people have done that, coming on top of more than 600,000 already enrolled.

Under the new Oregon Health Plan income eligibility rules, in 2014 individuals must earn 138 percent of the federal poverty level or less to qualify, as compared to the 100 percent cutoff this year. The new cap means monthly income of $1,322 for an individual,$1,784 for a household of two, $2,247 for a household of three, and $2,704 for a family of four.

Another change likely to boost enrollment: under new rules mandated by the federal health law, savings or property is no longer a bar to membership; application is now based strictly on income for the month in which someone applies.

Many of the new enrollees are likely to have pent-up health needs. A survey of 38,000 people on the Oregon Health Plan waiting list in 2012 found 11 percent had diabetes, 8 percent heart problems, 30 percent high blood pressure, 22 percent high cholesterol and 5 percent cancer.
Yesterday I wrote about Oregon's big success signing people up for Obamacare: The state had, in the course of 17 days, signed up 56,000 people for the health law's Medicaid expansion. In one fell swoop, the state had cut its uninsured rate by 10 percent.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2013/10/oregon_has_cut_tally_of_those.html


From Wapo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/18/the-other-side-of-obamacares-oregon-success-no-one-has-bought-private-insurance/


Yesterday I wrote about Oregon's big success signing people up for Obamacare: The state had, in the course of 17 days, signed up 56,000 people for the health law's Medicaid expansion. In one fell swoop, the state had cut its uninsured rate by 10 percent.
That is, however, only part of the story from Oregon. When it comes to private insurance, spokeswoman Amy Fauver said that it has not yet had any sign-ups.
"While we wish we were in a different place with our technology, we're implementing the contingencies we need to make sure no Oregonians get left behind," she said.
Cover Oregon decided Sept. 30, the day before the marketplace went live, that the software it uses to determine who qualifies for financial aid was coming up with too many errors to go live. It decided instead that it would process applications manually. Those applications have begun filtering in and determinations will likely go out later this month.
"They'll start hearing from us in the next week or two what about what their next step is," Fauver said. "We have staff trained to do that determination."
However, Fauver said that no Oregon health plan has received an enrollment through the marketplace. She declined to comment on the number of applications submitted to the marketplace, saying her department is "still working through the data to to arrive at a number we can stand by." It's possible that some of the applications could be incomplete, or represent multiple people. Cover Oregon doesn't know because they're still pending manual processing.
Oregon initially projected that 7,000 people would sign up for private coverage this month. Fauver wouldn't say whether that number still seems reasonable, with 12 days left to go in the month.
"It's too soon to say," she said. "We're working with our developers around the clock to get this fixed. We're not where we want to be, but we think we'll be able to get there soon."
How could so many people sign up for the Medicaid expansion, and not a single person enroll in private insurance? It mostly has to do with how simple the Medicaid sign-up was: The state sent out notices to about 260,000 people who already receive public benefits and were below 138 percent of the federal poverty line, the cut-off for the Medicaid expansion.
To enroll, they simply had to call a phone number or return a form to the state.
"It simplified the process and that made a huge dent," Fauver said. "We're extremely thrilled about that, and expect the number to go up in coming weeks."

It would be nice if you could get the difference between obamacare, or the ACA and PRIVATE Insurance.......




Factually, this quote from the first line of your own post -- "No one has signed up for private insurance," -- proves you are wrong.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 8:44:26 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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how is that wrong?  You cannot sign up for private insurance from the Oregon website.  You have some actual fact that disproves that? (snicker)



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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 8:58:07 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
It is wrong because it doesn't prove wrong what it was intended to prove wrong.

"How many people have enrolled in Obamacare from Oregon...

Zero."

That you can't sign up for Obamacare via the Oregon website because it isn't up and running yet in no way, shape or form proves wrong the original statement quoted above -- in fact it proves the original statement correct. (snear)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 9:06:47 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Why is everyone excited that the web site won't be fixed and you won't be able to sign up by so and so date? Obamacare said you cannot be refused insurance for a pre-existing condition. If thats true, if you get sick or need expensive medical care, that is a PRE-EXISTING condition! If you then apply for insurance, they CANNOT refuse you or make you pay any more because of your condition.
Liberals love to expouse about "spreading the wealth" except when it comes from THEIR wealth! I really don't see the young, (who don't feel they really need healthcare at this stage of their lives) willing to pay extra to subsidize healthcare for older people.


There is a tax penalty for each month you aren't covered in a year. The first year, it's $95 or 1% of your earnings, whichever is greater... per month. The penalty is waived if you are not covered by insurance for 3 months or fewer.

So, yes, you can wait until you are sick and then jump into the ranks of the insured, but you'll have to pay a tax penalty. That's why there is this whole "so and so date" thing.



So for the first year, it will cost 95.00/month. And even a person making 100,000 would't pay a ton at 1%. Where can a working adult get healthcare cheaper than 95.00/month?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 9:18:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

It is wrong because it doesn't prove wrong what it was intended to prove wrong.

"How many people have enrolled in Obamacare from Oregon...

Zero."

That you can't sign up for Obamacare via the Oregon website because it isn't up and running yet in no way, shape or form proves wrong the original statement quoted above -- in fact it proves the original statement correct. (snear)


yeah, lol.  What don't you understand about anything at all?

The expansion of the big M is Obamacare, it is being offered and it is signing up, the private insurance under Obamacare is not yet being offered and it is not signing up.

So, the number is not zero, it is a number that is not zero. We have collectively in the human race, those who have any commerce with numbers, have understood zero for thousands of years, and that ain't it. (guffawing derisively at imbecility)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/12/2013 9:19:29 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 9:27:26 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline
Suppose a person signs up for the cheapest plan. (then he has insurance, (so no penalty) Then he gets an expensive health problem. Can he upgrade to the best plan with no penalty now that he has a condition that covers more expenses than his cheaper plan does? Remember, pre-existing condition cannot disqualify you for signing up. Does that apply to upgrading a plan?

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 10:17:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Suppose a person signs up for the cheapest plan. (then he has insurance, (so no penalty) Then he gets an expensive health problem. Can he upgrade to the best plan with no penalty now that he has a condition that covers more expenses than his cheaper plan does? Remember, pre-existing condition cannot disqualify you for signing up. Does that apply to upgrading a plan?


Interesting question. I'll let others answer, for I don't know that answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
So for the first year, it will cost 95.00/month. And even a person making 100,000 would't pay a ton at 1%. Where can a working adult get healthcare cheaper than 95.00/month?


The first year, the penalties are lower, but increase each year for, IIRC, 3 years. The highest rate is $695 or 2.5% of income, which is higher, per month. In the first year, then, your $100k example would pay $1000/mo. for each month not covered, as long as there are at least 4 months of non-coverage. In the third year, it would be $2500/mo. for each month not covered, as long as there are at least 4 months of non-coverage.

I don't know what the coverage is if you pay the penalty, if there is any. You might still have to pay out of pocket for everything, so you won't necessarily be getting healthcare for that $95/mo.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 10:26:19 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

Suppose a person signs up for the cheapest plan. (then he has insurance, (so no penalty) Then he gets an expensive health problem. Can he upgrade to the best plan with no penalty now that he has a condition that covers more expenses than his cheaper plan does? Remember, pre-existing condition cannot disqualify you for signing up. Does that apply to upgrading a plan?

No. Unless it's during an open enrollment period, you can only change a plan with a life change event - marriage, divorce, birth/death/adoption of a child, loss of job are all considered life change events. Having insurance then needing better insurance because you've gotten sick does not qualify as a life change event that allows you to increase your insurance coverage.

_____________________________

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Epic Fail. Current Obamacare enrollment - 11/12/2013 10:44:57 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



The first year, the penalties are lower, but increase each year for, IIRC, 3 years. The highest rate is $695 or 2.5% of income, which is higher, per month. In the first year, then, your $100k example would pay $1000/mo. for each month not covered, as long as there are at least 4 months of non-coverage. In the third year, it would be $2500/mo. for each month not covered, as long as there are at least 4 months of non-coverage.

I don't know what the coverage is if you pay the penalty, if there is any. You might still have to pay out of pocket for everything, so you won't necessarily be getting healthcare for that $95/mo.



It's not per month.. it's per year. $95 or 1% is the max penalty per person for the first year. You've misread the ACA.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 20
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