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BenevolentM -> What is the solution? (11/15/2013 1:22:01 AM)

If ObamaCare is not the solution, then what is the solution?




BenevolentM -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 2:07:09 AM)

I myself am not all that thrilled with how ObamaCare was implemented. It was just so funky. The Republican party, however, had no plan of their own unless you consider the plan the Democrats advanced was the Republican plan. The Republican party's plan appears to be to have no plan. So I'm asking, what then is the solution? Is this nothing more than a Sadomasochistic game being played out on the American people?

ObamaCare is like mandatory auto insurance, but some how isn't. So transportation is a luxury and isn't akin to respiration. Then there is the carbon tax which is a tax on respiration. It is like pass the pot. After you have inhaled enough, it will all begin to make sense.

The only thing that did make sense was that the Democrats had a plan and the Republicans didn't.




BenevolentM -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 2:15:17 AM)

Suppose the Republicans get their way and their fantasy comes true. What then?




RottenJohnny -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 2:15:24 AM)

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.




BenevolentM -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 2:45:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.


Liberals have convinced themselves that liberal light is the way to go and feel that cockeyed is politically expedient. It's the only way in Rome.

Anyway, what exactly is the difference between having to pay an insurance premium and having to pay taxes? At the end of the day you are at the mercy of a bureaucracy. If you don't want to be at the mercy of a bureaucracy, you have got to be rich and if you are not rich the alternative is to do away with insurance companies and the government. If you do that who or what are you going to rely on?

We humans tend to the sick and wounded. God prefers it this way too. There is an alternative, make access to medical care a right and just accept that it is going to cost a fortune. That way you sweep the bureaucracy aside. You come up with a bureaucracy light plan. That way though you may not save any money, you may, however, get your money's worth.




BenevolentM -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:00:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.


In some sense this is not a bad idea when you consider if you don't have the best insurance in the world, how bad it can be.




joether -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:22:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
If ObamaCare is not the solution, then what is the solution?


If the President (and Democrats) knew then what they know now, I do believe they would have run with a much different perspective on healthcare. It would do its best to keep healthcare companies from being belly up, while keeping Americans (including the most at risk or drowned in debt) on a healthy field for existence. In that one can not really enjoy any other liberty if their health is completely shoot to all hell. Its a safe bet that the President and Democrats would like to change different parts of the ACA. Update the rules and structure with what we know and understand now, thereby making the whole process 'work' and 'flow' better. Alas, they know how difficult the first time through was on the document. A second 'updated and revised' version would be utter hell to push through Congress.

Its rather sad in my view, that most Americans simply have not read the ACA. While its a pretty....lengthy.....read, it is a framework to a system that works better than the previous system. Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a far better change of keeping rates low, bankruptcies from saying in the #1 position, and more care to a greater number of individuals. The heart of the ACA is one that has been so mangled and corrupted that the end viewer sees the misinformation but not the real material. Having no reason to question the information they are given, they often arrive spewing forth completely toxic and hateful crap when twenty minutes of google searches would unearth the exact information.

The Republicans are in a bind on this issue entirely. They can not develop a healthcare plan without completely alienating the Tea Party (whom they need to win elections in battleground spots in the nation in the next two elections). But attacking the ACA when they have nothing solid and well thought out to offerr in its place shows them as reckless and stupid. They certainly not going to join forces with Democrats and make the damn system work better for the American people. That would be the intelligent and wise thing to do right now. Cant have 'intelligence' and 'wisdom' in the Republican/Tea Party for some unknown reason.





farglebargle -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:23:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

If ObamaCare is not the solution, then what is the solution?


This is ALL CAUSED by coddling the Health Insurance Companies.

Step 1: Direct all practicioners to use the WORKING AND PAID FOR VistA EHR/PM system from the VA.

Step 2: Using birth records, enroll all citizens into medicare. Have a small system to handle old people/poor people WITHOUT PAPERS.

Step 3: There is no step 3 There are also no more health insurance companies.

Does anyone but the legislators OWNED BY HEALTH INSURERS care about health insurance companies?




Yachtie -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:25:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.



Most people would not understand your friend at all. As a baseline, I can find agreement with him. Look at everything of need and want your life encompasses and notice that for most of it, you have no insurance. Yet you month after month meet those needs. How is that possible without some form of subsidy? That's what insurance is, a form of subsidy.

You can do it, generally, because the marketplace operates on the maxim that states people deal honorably with each other. It can be no other way else the marketplace would not exist.

Of course, as we all know, there are dishonorable people out there. This is where Law comes in. The most important is the Statute of Frauds. Violate that, especially where Government is involved (to its own ends), in the violation, and your on the path of law to correct law to correct law. I see that everywhere today, especially in Banking and Insurance. We label it corruption.

Liberals have convinced themselves that liberal light is the way to go and feel that cockeyed is politically expedient. It's the only way in Rome.

Liberalism deals easier with corruption than conservatism, in that liberalism attempts to get along with it. Conservatism, the real thing though the label is quite wrong and I no not wish to get into a label war, fights it.










farglebargle -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:34:36 AM)

quote:


You can do it, generally, because the marketplace operates on the maxim that states people deal honorably with each other.


So, you're saying without the historical regulation of insurance companies they would act in Good Faith?

If they acted in Good Faith, why did they intentionally twist their current customers from ACA compliant grandfathered policies into policies the insurers KNEW would have to be cancelled because they would be illegal under the new law?

There's the proof that regulation is needed. If you don't strictly regulate these Artificial Legal Entities, they *always* try to 'game the system' and expliot the consumer.

Personally, not being on their payroll, I don't see any purpose in their care-rationing and insurance company death panels, myself, and can't imagine why any rational person NOT ON THEIR PAYROLL would carry water for them....




mnottertail -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:36:22 AM)

quote:


Liberalism deals easier with corruption than conservatism, in that liberalism attempts to get along with it. Conservatism, the real thing though the label is quite wrong and I no not wish to get into a label war, fights it.


Taking into account the actual liberalism and actual conservatism, and throwing away all idea of partys and  those ideologies, I still do not see this as correct.

If anything general can be said, the liberalism side will decry 'corporate' corruptions, and conservatism will decry 'person' corruptions.   Whether or not pragmatically, they actually will do anything concrete is another subject.    

Both; in their own ways, will certainly 'get along' with it.






joether -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:43:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
A friend of mine once suggested outlawing health insurance altogether. Obviously, it's a ridiculous idea but I have to admit that it was such an "outside of the box" concept that I had to stop for a moment and ponder it.

Liberals have convinced themselves that liberal light is the way to go and feel that cockeyed is politically expedient. It's the only way in Rome.


WTH is 'Liberal Light'? Seriously, what depth of the conservative abyss does this crap come from?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Anyway, what exactly is the difference between having to pay an insurance premium and having to pay taxes? At the end of the day you are at the mercy of a bureaucracy. If you don't want to be at the mercy of a bureaucracy, you have got to be rich and if you are not rich the alternative is to do away with insurance companies and the government. If you do that who or what are you going to rely on?


A bureaucracy if anything must abide by a set of rules. Those rules are often spelled out and easy to acquire. They are not written with a 6th grade education in mind but rather a high school diploma at the very least. They are both complicated because laws in general have become complicated. As Americans experienced the word, technology and creative ways in loopholes, the laws have had to become more sophisticated in nature and writing. Don't blame the folks in government for the actions of small percentage of Americans whom are very unscrupulous in nature. Even a person whom is rich or wealthy must deal with this language and people as a poor person would. The difference is they can hire the right people who can acquire the ability to teach the fine aspects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
We humans tend to the sick and wounded. God prefers it this way too. There is an alternative, make access to medical care a right and just accept that it is going to cost a fortune. That way you sweep the bureaucracy aside. You come up with a bureaucracy light plan. That way though you may not save any money, you may, however, get your money's worth.


Actually most humans are mere animals in nature. A small percentage actually give a shit about their fellow man. When was the last time we saw ANYONE in the Tea Party give a shit about those Americans suffering from an assortment of problems and illnesses? An before you start in on the 'Let God help' bit, realize that entity is not the same across the board. Nor does every American worship a 'divine entity'. Further, there will NOT be a "...bureaucracy light plan." in the country as I've stated above. You demand things be kept simple and easy to understand. Well, I hate to explain this, but tough shit, that will NEVER happen. Not in this day and age. When 'keeping it system' enters into ANYTHING in which money is involved in large amounts, there WILL BE huge amounts of unethical behavior when rules and laws are not present. You haven't read the ACA. Why not? its 'to complicated', right? Well, guess what, that's your fault, not the nation's. If you don't understand, than perhaps you should seek out someone that could teach it to you.





farglebargle -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:46:28 AM)

REAL Conservative don't give a shit about anything but "Does the Corporation bring in revenue to the treasury?"

Keep this in mind when talking to 'Self-Identified Faux Conservatives" ( A.K.A. Republican/Tea-Party Members )

They're also NOT Libertarians. REAL Libertarians know that THE SYSTEM is the problem and that by voting, which is pointless, you sanction THE SYSTEM.

Again, my "Paleo-Con Who Got THROWN OUT OF THE GOP" POV, which is arguable more conservative and libertarian than any tea-party-member is that The People create Artificial Legal Entities for a reason, and if they're not Promoting The General Welfare, then WHAT BENEFIT TO The People is there at all?


( Real Libertarians RUN THEIR OWN BUSINESSES WITHOUT HIDING BEHIND A LLC )




DomKen -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:54:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Liberalism deals easier with corruption than conservatism, in that liberalism attempts to get along with it. Conservatism, the real thing though the label is quite wrong and I no not wish to get into a label war, fights it.

Sure. That must be why the conservative movement is completely corrupt top to bottom. As a matter of fact if you look at the conservative movement from the outside it is clearly nothing but a collection of grifters getting the gullible to send them giant piles of cash.




DesideriScuri -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:55:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
I myself am not all that thrilled with how ObamaCare was implemented. It was just so funky. The Republican party, however, had no plan of their own unless you consider the plan the Democrats advanced was the Republican plan. The Republican party's plan appears to be to have no plan. So I'm asking, what then is the solution? Is this nothing more than a Sadomasochistic game being played out on the American people?
ObamaCare is like mandatory auto insurance, but some how isn't. So transportation is a luxury and isn't akin to respiration. Then there is the carbon tax which is a tax on respiration. It is like pass the pot. After you have inhaled enough, it will all begin to make sense.
The only thing that did make sense was that the Democrats had a plan and the Republicans didn't.


Auto insurance and home insurance are, essentially, catastrophic policies. Generally, they don't cover the more "everyday" things like oil changes, filter changes, tire rotations, etc. When you have an accident, you pay your deductible, and the insurance pays the rest, up the limits of the policy. That is, it is there to help you afford the cost of fixing their and/or your vehicle if you're in an accident. Your deductible, then, will likely go up, as you now present a greater risk of payout for the insurer.

Health insurance, as it is today, isn't a catastrophic-only plan. Health insurance covers everything, generally. Your simple well-care visit? Covered, after your co-pay. Prescriptions? Covered, after your co-pay. If health insurance was more of a "catastrophic care" plan, it would be less expensive.

The problem is, health care has gotten ridiculously expensive. Now, you can't pay for the care out of pocket unless you have very deep pockets. Insurance, then, steps in and helps pay for everything. What happens when health care costs rise to the point you have insurance being so expensive? Government tries to intervene, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on how it goes about it. Simply throwing taxpayer money at the insurance companies is a great way for everyone to have insurance, but that doesn't actually get at the root of the problem: health care costs.

Sure there will be efficiencies that reduce the overall, aggregate cost of care (like managing a condition prior to it becoming a full-blown disease). But, that, still, doesn't get at the root of the problem. I can't state that for 100% of all procedures, care costs are a lot higher in the US than anywhere else, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. Costs for procedures and services are ridiculous here, compared to elsewhere. Obamacare doesn't get to the root of that.

I'm not sure of the total solution, but there are steps that can be taken. The issue has to be dealt with at the cost of services and procedures level. Lower those costs, and you'll lower insurance costs. Lower them enough, and you'll have more people capable of affording the "everyday" thing out of pocket, relegating insurance for the costlier medical issues (ie. more akin to catastrophic coverage), which will reduce that coverage.






Phydeaux -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 3:58:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

REAL Conservative don't give a shit about anything but "Does the Corporation bring in revenue to the treasury?"

Keep this in mind when talking to 'Self-Identified Faux Conservatives" ( A.K.A. Republican/Tea-Party Members )

They're also NOT Libertarians. REAL Libertarians know that THE SYSTEM is the problem and that by voting, which is pointless, you sanction THE SYSTEM.

Again, my "Paleo-Con Who Got THROWN OUT OF THE GOP" POV, which is arguable more conservative and libertarian than any tea-party-member is that The People create Artificial Legal Entities for a reason, and if they're not Promoting The General Welfare, then WHAT BENEFIT TO The People is there at all?


( Real Libertarians RUN THEIR OWN BUSINESSES WITHOUT HIDING BEHIND A LLC )



This is so outside mainstream thought I have no idea where to go.
Conservatives believe in small government
Small business.
Maximum liberty for people. This means freedom to succeed - and freedom to fail on your own merits.

Help those that need a hand up not a handout.








DomKen -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 4:01:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Conservatives believe in small government
Small business.

Why does every part of government grow when cons are in charge except the part of DoJ that prosecutes antitrust violations? The number of monopolies and oligopolies functioning in this country would make Teddy Roosevelt sick.




Zonie63 -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 4:08:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

If ObamaCare is not the solution, then what is the solution?


Price controls.




farglebargle -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 4:17:18 AM)

quote:

Conservatives believe in small government


Remind us, what 'small government' conservatives have advocated for ending the F-35 'can't fighter' program?





joether -> RE: What is the solution? (11/15/2013 4:31:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
REAL Conservative don't give a shit about anything but "Does the Corporation bring in revenue to the treasury?"

Keep this in mind when talking to 'Self-Identified Faux Conservatives" ( A.K.A. Republican/Tea-Party Members )

They're also NOT Libertarians. REAL Libertarians know that THE SYSTEM is the problem and that by voting, which is pointless, you sanction THE SYSTEM.

Again, my "Paleo-Con Who Got THROWN OUT OF THE GOP" POV, which is arguable more conservative and libertarian than any tea-party-member is that The People create Artificial Legal Entities for a reason, and if they're not Promoting The General Welfare, then WHAT BENEFIT TO The People is there at all?

( Real Libertarians RUN THEIR OWN BUSINESSES WITHOUT HIDING BEHIND A LLC )

This is so outside mainstream thought I have no idea where to go.
Conservatives believe in small government
Small business.
Maximum liberty for people. This means freedom to succeed - and freedom to fail on your own merits.

Help those that need a hand up not a handout.


HAHAHAHA.....

Always pushing that political viewpoint, regardless of how much it is a total lie. Do you really think liberals are as dumb as people in the Tea Party?

Conservatives do not believe in small government. That's LIBERTARIANS.

Small Business is NOT something conservatives give a crap about. Most small businesses wanted a better healthcare system to which conservatives tried to torpedo back in 2010 and each year since. Further making it hard on many of them to grow their business thanks to the failed economy that nearly went into an economic meltdown in 2007. Oh, and that government shutdown from a few weeks ago? Do you know there are many small businesses whose entire livelihood is based on national parks being open? Some of those businesses didn't have a good summer this year and were hoping for a strong fall turn out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Maximum liberty for people. This means freedom to succeed - and freedom to fail on your own merits.


If this was true, than why is the Tea Party STILL part of the Republican Party? Shouldn't they trek out on their own and not be the little bitches of the Grand Old Party?

Having complete freedom without restraint or rule, leads to anarchy in every case. Stating that maximum freedom is tied directly into success, implies changing the form of government from a 'Democratic Republic' to a 'Meritocracy'. Which generally turns into a 'Socialism', 'Dictatorship' or 'Authoritarian', or 'Totalitarian' after a while. Yeah, not what you thought, right? That's what happens when you don't think the whole plan out to its logical conclusion when you calculated how mankind treats itself.




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