RE: A rather large presumption

RE: A rather large presumption (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 4:23:53 AM)
Thanks Freedomdwarf! I guess I shouldn't be here because I have such difficulty understanding this argument. How can something so black and white be so multi coloured?

Phydeaux -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 4:55:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB My question is, do you want change? Not only no. Hell no. No with whipped cream and a cherry on top. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not yesterday. Not from this president. Not from any president. Do you get the idea? HELL NO.

Phydeaux -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Oh I do get and I also get that you don't get how nationalizing your health system could possibly benefit you. Funding such a project really isn't the problem, efficiency wouldn't be a problem either but implementing it would be near on impossible because how can you implement such an idea in a country so hung up on capitalism. The propaganda is so finely tuned and successful that the very people who are being victimized by the system are supporting the system. There's plenty of papers about how the national health systems work. If you really had the slightest interest you would be educating yourself, not from hearsay but real sources. Its not a question of being victimized by the system. Thats your preconceived notion of what should be. You believe that people are sheep whose basic needs should be met by the state. I believe that the responsibility of providing your own health care encourages you to man up - and do it. I believe that bonecrushing taxes are a bad thing. I believe that each person making the choice for themselves is better than a government making it for me.

mnottertail -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:07:52 AM)
I believe that the responsibility of providing your own health care encourages you to man up - and do it. There are many pussies (by inference) who are not 'man enough' to do it. I believe that bonecrushing taxes are a bad thing. No fuckin body pays bonecrushing taxes, in fact the nutsackers spend our money to insure that somebody who is not responsible pays them, generations hence, so they can deadbeat their pittance. I believe that each person making the choice for themselves is better than a government making it for me. Yeah, it is nice to have choice and freedom, but social responsibility is needful as well, and many times that has to be legislated.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:22:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Oh I do get and I also get that you don't get how nationalizing your health system could possibly benefit you. Funding such a project really isn't the problem, efficiency wouldn't be a problem either but implementing it would be near on impossible because how can you implement such an idea in a country so hung up on capitalism. The propaganda is so finely tuned and successful that the very people who are being victimized by the system are supporting the system. There's plenty of papers about how the national health systems work. If you really had the slightest interest you would be educating yourself, not from hearsay but real sources. Its not a question of being victimized by the system. Thats your preconceived notion of what should be. You believe that people are sheep whose basic needs should be met by the state. Ummmm... Nope. We believe in getting our money's worth from an otherwise profit-driven commodity. We also believe in everyone being able to have access to decent healthcare no matter how rich or poor you are. We also believe that people shouldn't die because they can't afford healthcare insurance. quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I believe that the responsibility of providing your own health care encourages you to man up - and do it. We do provide our own healthcare. The difference being, we ALL clubbed together into one single, very powerful monopoly so that big pharma and insurance companies can't rip us off. We get a better bang for our buck than anyone in the US. You keep paying your sky-high prices while we get the same stuff for a shit-load less. quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I believe that bonecrushing taxes are a bad thing. So do we. The US already pays 10% for what little healthcare it offers some people. The rest you have to make up in private insurance costs of up to 35% or more. You still pay to visit your doctor. You pay for your hospital visits and treatment. We pay about 8.6% for bucketloads more and that covers everyone for everything; including doctors visits. Who has the better deal. Huh? quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux I believe that each person making the choice for themselves is better than a government making it for me. No different than us. Except we DO have a choice. And no, the government make no choices for anyone whatsoever. We can go private just like the US or we can use the universal facilities for free. You don't have that choice. You pay through the nose via insurance or you go without. So who is better off, Huh?

Phydeaux -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:25:35 AM)
quote: So who is better off, Huh? Better off? We are.

Lucylastic -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:26:40 AM)
only if you can afford it

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:42:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: So who is better off, Huh? Better off? We are. I don't think so. You have: Private insurance that costs 35% or more of your income. You pay for every visit to the doctor. You pay for every hospital visit and anything you use on that visit (drugs, staff, services etc). You have deductables on every single claim. If your insurance doesn't cover your ailment or problem - you're shit outta luck. You pay megabucks or suffer, or even die as a result. Your country still uses 10% of your taxes to cover what little it does and only for some people. We have: Universal healthcare that costs about 8.6% of our income - but only if you earn enough to pay tax. We pay for nothing else. We can see our doctor as often as we like, for free (it's included in the 8.6% NI cost). We can go to the hospital for free (everything is provided free). No deductables. No exclusions. No claims to file. No contest. [:D]

MariaB -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 5:58:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: So who is better off, Huh? Better off? We are. I don't think so. You have: Private insurance that costs 35% or more of your income. You pay for every visit to the doctor. You pay for every hospital visit and anything you use on that visit (drugs, staff, services etc). You have deductables on every single claim. If your insurance doesn't cover your ailment or problem - you're shit outta luck. You pay megabucks or suffer, or even die as a result. Your country still uses 10% of your taxes to cover what little it does and only for some people. We have: Universal healthcare that costs about 8.6% of our income - but only if you earn enough to pay tax. We pay for nothing else. We can see our doctor as often as we like, for free (it's included in the 8.6% NI cost). We can go to the hospital for free (everything is provided free). No deductables. No exclusions. No claims to file. No contest. [:D] Yes but Freedom, you are forgetting to mention our dictatorship. The dull uniforms we all have to wear, the parades we have to attend, the social housing where none of us can have a better front door than our neighbours and what about our ration cards, having to wait outside the butchers shop for hours just for a chicken neck and a small pat of butter. Then of course there's the rat infested hospitals, the concrete corridors with peeling paint and the doctors who eye us up for their experimentation programmes. Seriously, what's the point of answering this guy. He's on a mission, he know how to debate and no amount of medication will change his mind [;)]

Lucylastic -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 6:02:51 AM)
id rather be at the mercy of the NHS or OHIP than ANY insurance company

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 6:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic id rather be at the mercy of the NHS or OHIP than ANY insurance company At least they'd be more likely to be concerned about your health and making you better than what they can fiddle and wring out of the insurance claim for more profits.

EdBowie -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 6:59:31 AM)
Also untrue. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: So who is better off, Huh? Better off? We are. I don't think so. You have: Private insurance that costs 35% or more of your income. You pay for every visit to the doctor. You pay for every hospital visit and anything you use on that visit (drugs, staff, services etc). You have deductables on every single claim. If your insurance doesn't cover your ailment or problem - you're shit outta luck. You pay megabucks or suffer, or even die as a result. Your country still uses 10% of your taxes to cover what little it does and only for some people. We have: Universal healthcare that costs about 8.6% of our income - but only if you earn enough to pay tax. We pay for nothing else. We can see our doctor as often as we like, for free (it's included in the 8.6% NI cost). We can go to the hospital for free (everything is provided free). No deductables. No exclusions. No claims to file. No contest. [:D]

EdBowie -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:03:43 AM)
This has nothing to do with what I posted. quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Oh I do get and I also get that you don't get how nationalizing your health system could possibly benefit you. Funding such a project really isn't the problem, efficiency wouldn't be a problem either but implementing it would be near on impossible because how can you implement such an idea in a country so hung up on capitalism. The propaganda is so finely tuned and successful that the very people who are being victimized by the system are supporting the system. There's plenty of papers about how the national health systems work. If you really had the slightest interest you would be educating yourself, not from hearsay but real sources.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:06:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Also untrue. Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.

EdBowie -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:08:50 AM)
You've used 'you' in the deliberate sense of 'every single American', and then applied extreme cases to create a false picture. I don't pay 35% of my income just for health insurance, and then pay all those other expenditures. My deductibles are capped at a low amount, and the ailments that insurance doesn't cover fall into the rare, or the impossible (like OB.GYN for men). And my situation is not unusual. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Also untrue. Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.

Lucylastic -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:08:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic id rather be at the mercy of the NHS or OHIP than ANY insurance company At least they'd be more likely to be concerned about your health and making you better than what they can fiddle and wring out of the insurance claim for more profits. I would have been dead or bankrupt several times over from pre existing conditions.

Lucylastic -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:10:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Thanks for admitting that you are a sock puppet for the person I quoted. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Also untrue. Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted. you are so far from wrong you aren't even funny

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:10:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Thanks for admitting that you are a sock puppet for the person I quoted. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Also untrue. Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted. You quoted me. You replied to me. Now explain yourself.

EdBowie -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:14:14 AM)
I already have. Enjoy your denial. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Thanks for admitting that you are a sock puppet for the person I quoted. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Also untrue. Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted. You quoted me. You replied to me. Now explain yourself.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A rather large presumption (11/20/2013 7:29:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie You've used 'you' in the deliberate sense of 'every single American', and then applied extreme cases to create a false picture. I don't pay 35% of my income just for health insurance, and then pay all those other expenditures. My deductibles are capped at a low amount, and the ailments that insurance doesn't cover fall into the rare, or the impossible (like OB.GYN for men). quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Also untrue. Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted. I used 'you' in the general sense of the average American. I didn't say every single American. That's your interpretation, not mine. I know many that pay a good deal more than 35% for insurance. For several that I know, it's actually over 50% of their income. My friends in NC and FL tell me that 35% is an underestimation for a lot of working people. You may be lucky enough to earn more than the average and pay less than 35% in healthcare. But is it less than 8.6% like ours?? 10% of your taxes still go towards what little other healthcare is provided. That's more than what we pay. You still pay deductables. We don't. You still pay for every doctors visit. We don't. You still pay for your hospital visits and anything used in that visit; either by cash or insurance (and more deductables). We don't. And if you get mastisys, or other 'normally feminine' type of ailment, you are covered? And when you're out of work, retired, or disabled, or get something really nasty (like the big C), you're covered... right up until the day you die, regardless?? Oh leave it out. You're nit-picking. ETA: I'm not a sock for anyone and never have been.

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