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RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 4:23:53 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks Freedomdwarf! I guess I shouldn't be here because I have such difficulty understanding this argument. How can something so black and white be so multi coloured?

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 4:55:51 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

My question is, do you want change?



Not only no. Hell no.
No with whipped cream and a cherry on top.
Not today.
Not tomorrow.
Not yesterday.

Not from this president.
Not from any president.

Do you get the idea?

HELL NO.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:02:30 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Oh I do get and I also get that you don't get how nationalizing your health system could possibly benefit you. Funding such a project really isn't the problem, efficiency wouldn't be a problem either but implementing it would be near on impossible because how can you implement such an idea in a country so hung up on capitalism. The propaganda is so finely tuned and successful that the very people who are being victimized by the system are supporting the system.

There's plenty of papers about how the national health systems work. If you really had the slightest interest you would be educating yourself, not from hearsay but real sources.



Its not a question of being victimized by the system. Thats your preconceived notion of what should be.

You believe that people are sheep whose basic needs should be met by the state.

I believe that the responsibility of providing your own health care encourages you to man up - and do it.
I believe that bonecrushing taxes are a bad thing.
I believe that each person making the choice for themselves is better than a government making it for me.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:07:52 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I believe that the responsibility of providing your own health care encourages you to man up - and do it.

There are many pussies (by inference) who are not 'man enough' to do it.

I believe that bonecrushing taxes are a bad thing.

No fuckin body pays bonecrushing taxes, in fact the nutsackers spend our money to insure that somebody who is not responsible pays them, generations hence, so they can deadbeat their pittance.

I believe that each person making the choice for themselves is better than a government making it for me.
Yeah, it is nice to have choice and freedom, but social responsibility is needful as well, and many times that has to be legislated.    



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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:22:04 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Oh I do get and I also get that you don't get how nationalizing your health system could possibly benefit you. Funding such a project really isn't the problem, efficiency wouldn't be a problem either but implementing it would be near on impossible because how can you implement such an idea in a country so hung up on capitalism. The propaganda is so finely tuned and successful that the very people who are being victimized by the system are supporting the system.

There's plenty of papers about how the national health systems work. If you really had the slightest interest you would be educating yourself, not from hearsay but real sources.


Its not a question of being victimized by the system. Thats your preconceived notion of what should be.

You believe that people are sheep whose basic needs should be met by the state.

Ummmm... Nope.

We believe in getting our money's worth from an otherwise profit-driven commodity.
We also believe in everyone being able to have access to decent healthcare no matter how rich or poor you are.
We also believe that people shouldn't die because they can't afford healthcare insurance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I believe that the responsibility of providing your own health care encourages you to man up - and do it.

We do provide our own healthcare.
The difference being, we ALL clubbed together into one single, very powerful monopoly so that big pharma and insurance companies can't rip us off.
We get a better bang for our buck than anyone in the US.

You keep paying your sky-high prices while we get the same stuff for a shit-load less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I believe that bonecrushing taxes are a bad thing.

So do we.
The US already pays 10% for what little healthcare it offers some people.
The rest you have to make up in private insurance costs of up to 35% or more. You still pay to visit your doctor. You pay for your hospital visits and treatment.
We pay about 8.6% for bucketloads more and that covers everyone for everything; including doctors visits.

Who has the better deal. Huh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I believe that each person making the choice for themselves is better than a government making it for me.

No different than us. Except we DO have a choice.
And no, the government make no choices for anyone whatsoever.

We can go private just like the US or we can use the universal facilities for free.
You don't have that choice. You pay through the nose via insurance or you go without.

So who is better off, Huh?


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:25:35 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:


So who is better off, Huh?




Better off? We are.

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:26:40 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		only if you can afford it


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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:42:51 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:


So who is better off, Huh?


Better off? We are.

I don't think so.

You have:
Private insurance that costs 35% or more of your income.
You pay for every visit to the doctor.
You pay for every hospital visit and anything you use on that visit (drugs, staff, services etc).
You have deductables on every single claim.
If your insurance doesn't cover your ailment or problem - you're shit outta luck. You pay megabucks or suffer, or even die as a result.
Your country still uses 10% of your taxes to cover what little it does and only for some people.

We have:
Universal healthcare that costs about 8.6% of our income - but only if you earn enough to pay tax.
We pay for nothing else.
We can see our doctor as often as we like, for free (it's included in the 8.6% NI cost).
We can go to the hospital for free (everything is provided free).
No deductables. No exclusions. No claims to file.

No contest.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 5:58:44 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:


So who is better off, Huh?


Better off? We are.

I don't think so.

You have:
Private insurance that costs 35% or more of your income.
You pay for every visit to the doctor.
You pay for every hospital visit and anything you use on that visit (drugs, staff, services etc).
You have deductables on every single claim.
If your insurance doesn't cover your ailment or problem - you're shit outta luck. You pay megabucks or suffer, or even die as a result.
Your country still uses 10% of your taxes to cover what little it does and only for some people.

We have:
Universal healthcare that costs about 8.6% of our income - but only if you earn enough to pay tax.
We pay for nothing else.
We can see our doctor as often as we like, for free (it's included in the 8.6% NI cost).
We can go to the hospital for free (everything is provided free).
No deductables. No exclusions. No claims to file.

No contest.


Yes but Freedom, you are forgetting to mention our dictatorship. The dull uniforms we all have to wear, the parades we have to attend, the social housing where none of us can have a better front door than our neighbours and what about our ration cards, having to wait outside the butchers shop for hours just for a chicken neck and a small pat of butter. Then of course there's the rat infested hospitals, the concrete corridors with peeling paint and the doctors who eye us up for their experimentation programmes.

Seriously, what's the point of answering this guy. He's on a mission, he know how to debate and no amount of medication will change his mind


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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 6:02:51 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		id rather be at the mercy of the NHS or OHIP than ANY insurance company

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 6:59:20 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

id rather be at the mercy of the NHS or OHIP than ANY insurance company

At least they'd be more likely to be concerned about your health and making you better than what they can fiddle and wring out of the insurance claim for more profits.

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 6:59:31 AM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Also untrue. 



quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:


So who is better off, Huh?


Better off? We are.

I don't think so.

You have:
Private insurance that costs 35% or more of your income.
You pay for every visit to the doctor.
You pay for every hospital visit and anything you use on that visit (drugs, staff, services etc).
You have deductables on every single claim.
If your insurance doesn't cover your ailment or problem - you're shit outta luck. You pay megabucks or suffer, or even die as a result.
Your country still uses 10% of your taxes to cover what little it does and only for some people.

We have:
Universal healthcare that costs about 8.6% of our income - but only if you earn enough to pay tax.
We pay for nothing else.
We can see our doctor as often as we like, for free (it's included in the 8.6% NI cost).
We can go to the hospital for free (everything is provided free).
No deductables. No exclusions. No claims to file.

No contest.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:03:43 AM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		This has nothing to do with what I posted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Oh I do get and I also get that you don't get how nationalizing your health system could possibly benefit you. Funding such a project really isn't the problem, efficiency wouldn't be a problem either but implementing it would be near on impossible because how can you implement such an idea in a country so hung up on capitalism. The propaganda is so finely tuned and successful that the very people who are being victimized by the system are supporting the system.

There's plenty of papers about how the national health systems work. If you really had the slightest interest you would be educating yourself, not from hearsay but real sources.





< Message edited by EdBowie -- 11/20/2013 7:05:46 AM >

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:06:43 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also untrue. 

Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:08:50 AM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		You've used 'you' in the deliberate sense of 'every single American', and then applied extreme cases to create a false picture.

I don't pay 35% of my income just for health insurance, and then pay all those other expenditures.  My deductibles are capped at a low amount, and the ailments that insurance doesn't cover fall into the rare, or the impossible (like OB.GYN for men).  And my situation is not unusual.




quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also untrue. 

Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.


< Message edited by EdBowie -- 11/20/2013 7:19:44 AM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:08:52 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

id rather be at the mercy of the NHS or OHIP than ANY insurance company

At least they'd be more likely to be concerned about your health and making you better than what they can fiddle and wring out of the insurance claim for more profits.

I would have been dead or bankrupt several times over from pre existing conditions.

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\(•_•)
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(•_•)
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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:10:12 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Thanks for admitting that you are a sock puppet for the person I quoted.



quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also untrue. 

Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.


you are so far from wrong you aren't even funny

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:10:30 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Thanks for admitting that you are a sock puppet for the person I quoted.



quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also untrue. 

Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.


You quoted me.
You replied to me.

Now explain yourself.

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:14:14 AM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		I already have.  Enjoy your denial.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Thanks for admitting that you are a sock puppet for the person I quoted.



quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also untrue. 

Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.


You quoted me.
You replied to me.

Now explain yourself.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: A rather large presumption - 11/20/2013 7:29:01 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

You've used 'you' in the deliberate sense of 'every single American', and then applied extreme cases to create a false picture.

I don't pay 35% of my income just for health insurance, and then pay all those other expenditures.  My deductibles are capped at a low amount, and the ailments that insurance doesn't cover fall into the rare, or the impossible (like OB.GYN for men).
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also untrue. 

Ok... Explain to poor moi what I have misquoted.


I used 'you' in the general sense of the average American.
I didn't say every single American.
That's your interpretation, not mine.

I know many that pay a good deal more than 35% for insurance.
For several that I know, it's actually over 50% of their income.
My friends in NC and FL tell me that 35% is an underestimation for a lot of working people.

You may be lucky enough to earn more than the average and pay less than 35% in healthcare. But is it less than 8.6% like ours??
10% of your taxes still go towards what little other healthcare is provided. That's more than what we pay.
You still pay deductables. We don't.
You still pay for every doctors visit. We don't.
You still pay for your hospital visits and anything used in that visit; either by cash or insurance (and more deductables). We don't.

And if you get mastisys, or other 'normally feminine' type of ailment, you are covered?
And when you're out of work, retired, or disabled, or get something really nasty (like the big C), you're covered... right up until the day you die, regardless??

Oh leave it out. You're nit-picking.


ETA: I'm not a sock for anyone and never have been.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 11/20/2013 7:36:34 AM >

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 180
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