RE: Control

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HollyS -> RE: Control (7/8/2006 8:43:01 PM)
Hi Bearlee, quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee Even the idea that I might be told to sleep on the floor just totally squicks me! While I understand some desire that kind of treatment to feel owned (or to feel ownership); I think I’d just wilt. I wonder how it is that some s-types look for the more adversarial environment…and if it’s not detrimental to their overall health if they try to live it. Oddly though, I have noticed I rather enjoy a kind of micro-management in relationship; one that includes some ritual and protocol. Perhaps it is the attention, perhaps it is the conscious work both must do to keep that kind of relationship working? Thanks for bringing this up. I think the need for some degree of ritual and protocol in a D/s relationship is totally understandable. Rituals help ground us and can have a very "centering" effect on both Doms and s-types. Protocols especially remind us that "This relationship is different from any and all others" and can help both people keep focus on the effects that dominating/submitting have on them. It's about getting into a different head space. Rituals can change and evolve over time - no one should confuse stability for stagnation. And if the idea of sleeping on the floor squicks you out, is it (as Raven said) perhaps a matter of context? What if your Master asked, in the spirit of love and devotion, that the two of you create a new ritual where you spend the night sleeping on the floor at his side of the bed? Where he could reach a hand down in the night and touch you, know you were there by his side, and take pleasure knowing you were doing it for him? Would it still bother you in the same way? ~Holly

Bearlee -> RE: Control (7/9/2006 6:49:13 AM)
Fast Reply... on several points: txpet, I know exactly what you mean! I think getting whipped is an example (for me) of the fact of my submission to someone. That, or being embarrassed half to death! Sheeshhhhhhhhhhhh The deal is…I am attracted to Sadists! My bad, huh? LOL agirl, I think it’s awesome that you are experiencing your M/s relationship the way the two of you have defined it. It’s really hard to do, I think… Part of me wonders if we are not back arguing over semantics partly, though. You are a slave who obeys her Master…yet you are not submissive? I wonder how that is possible. Surely submission is not determined by service, but rather yielding to authority…which seems to be what you have chosen to do. I admire the choices you have made…to be with someone who has your best interest at heart; who is uncompromising yet beneficial to your well-being, and that regardless of what it is he expects from you…you decide to honor your choice to follow him. I’m a big fan of ‘choice’ and believe we all should remember we have choice every day… perhaps that is what keeps it something other than adversarial. Raven, I understand the purpose of having a girl sleep on the floor…and perhaps I’d even like that…in the way txpet enjoys doing things her Master comes up with that she doesn’t really enjoy. It would be a way to feel owned; perhaps a way to get ‘focused’ on those choices we’d agreed to. Of course we’ve all read the trashy little BDSM novels where a girl regularly sleeps on a ‘pallet on the floor’. As romantic as all that sounds, I doubt it would serve the purpose intended for me…I think, like being shunned or ignored, in the long run such treatment (at least to me) is detrimental to the relationship. I prefer the honest communication you talked about earlier, Sir. I’m not one who intentionally disobeys anyway… <shrugs> Having said this, I also realize it is not for me to decide what I like, is it? LOL Still, spending the night on the floor is going to bring in the morning a girl who is not rested and also stiff and sore. agirl, I always enjoy your posts and the way you describe your relationship with your Master. You seem both very bright and very positive; traits I enjoy in any person. I hope you did not think my posts have been directed at you, somehow. Generally speaking, I will discuss ideas and not the person; if that makes sense. If you believe I’ve singled you out, somehow…please know it was not my intention…for even if I had, it would not be in some negative way. Back to sleeping on the floor; I’m becoming an old woman, Holly. Being told to sleep on the floor couldn’t possibly be in the spirit of love and devotion; only punishment for me. And not a good kind…too much like that ‘shunning’ thing! I believe people should talk things out and go to bed together; if he wants to reach over and touch me, to know I was there by his side…he could just reach across the bed. I do know what you’re talking about…and perhaps I’m focusing on one ridiculous thing; sleeping on the floor. In reality, I thoroughly understand what you mean about doing things you don’t enjoy purely because He enjoys your doing them…and I am the same way. It’s like kneeling, I cannot do it for long periods anymore...but I surely can sit on the floor at his feet whenever he chooses for me to do so.

agirl -> RE: Control (7/9/2006 9:22:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee Fast Reply... on several points: agirl, I think it’s awesome that you are experiencing your M/s relationship the way the two of you have defined it. It’s really hard to do, I think… Part of me wonders if we are not back arguing over semantics partly, though. You are a slave who obeys her Master…yet you are not submissive? I wonder how that is possible. Surely submission is not determined by service, but rather yielding to authority…which seems to be what you have chosen to do. I admire the choices you have made…to be with someone who has your best interest at heart; who is uncompromising yet beneficial to your well-being, and that regardless of what it is he expects from you…you decide to honor your choice to follow him. I’m a big fan of ‘choice’ and believe we all should remember we have choice every day… perhaps that is what keeps it something other than adversarial. agirl, I always enjoy your posts and the way you describe your relationship with your Master. You seem both very bright and very positive; traits I enjoy in any person. I hope you did not think my posts have been directed at you, somehow. Generally speaking, I will discuss ideas and not the person; if that makes sense. If you believe I’ve singled you out, somehow…please know it was not my intention…for even if I had, it would not be in some negative way. Hello Bearlee, Noooo....It hadn't entered my head that you had singled me out at all, I sometimes put a person's name when I respond if I think I'm responding to them specifically......a bit like I might in a conversation or letter etc. I really haven't felt any negativity at all, real or imagined. It was kind of you to mention it though. On the point about serving and submission, the only reason that I stress it sometimes, is that it's a very oft mentioned aspect of submissive's expression OF their submissiveness ...and also one that many doms also mention rather a lot. You are right that the reason it's not an adversarial relationship is because of the choice factor. I can hardly complain that I get beaten when I chose this life, I can't complain about him or his methods at all.......I didn't wander into it.....lol There's a lot of laughter, fun and understanding........there are days when I wail that I HATE having to do something, HATE being a slave....only to be met with a laughing Master saying * Oh well, you chose the wrong type of relationship then, my dear. On the sleeping on the floor* thing......Once, I was sent a text by my Master, in the middle of the night, telling me to get out of my big warm bed and sleep on the floor. I woke the next morning all grumpy, in a pile of pillows and duvet on the floor, wondering why the hell I'd had to do it. When he called me a little later and I grumbled about it, he had no idea what I was mithering about .......The text had been in my dream...grrrr He found that terribly amusing...lol Regards, agirl

Bearlee -> RE: Control (7/9/2006 4:23:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee There's a lot of laughter, fun and understanding........there are days when I wail that I HATE having to do something, HATE being a slave....only to be met with a laughing Master saying * Oh well, you chose the wrong type of relationship then, my dear*. Oh yummmmmmmmm!!! I just love the kind of healthy, playful relationships you're talking about. I know several 'lifestylers' in such relationships...and consider myself lucky to know them. This is such an odd life; a life outside the 'norm' yet with so much about it that IS normal. Good for you two!!! Someday, I will have it...again.

txpet -> RE: Control (7/9/2006 6:09:44 PM)
::smile:: i've grumbled at Master telling Him, i don't want to (usually first thing in the morning ... i am SOOO not a morning person) and He's told me "you don't get to say that" ... even that makes me smiling-happy! As far as sleeping on the floor, i've done it once ... of my own accord. Master had gone out to the living room to sleep in His recliner. i wandered out, knelt nex tto His chair and massaged Him ... He fell asleep ... and i fell asleep there on my knees (i would not have thought that was possible) ... i woke up when my feet were numb ... i grabbed a pillow off the couch and curled up at His feet on the floor. i was too tired to appreciate the situation when it happened but all day i was so happy! Oh dear, i had a comment and now i've forgotten ::giggle:: i did want to ask agirl .. do you say that you are not submissive because you only submit to your Master?

RavenMuse -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 3:09:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee Raven, I understand the purpose of having a girl sleep on the floor…and perhaps I’d even like that… I prefer the honest communication you talked about earlier, Sir. I’m not one who intentionally disobeys anyway… <shrugs> Having said this, I also realize it is not for me to decide what I like, is it? LOL Still, spending the night on the floor is going to bring in the morning a girl who is not rested and also stiff and sore. You might not ever like it, however, given the right context you might feel good about having done it 'for him'. The right context also has to allow for the well being (Mental and physical) of the girl. So a girl who would be suffering for days after one night sleeping on the floor, is one I am unlikely to make do so... but it is understood she is mine and if I made the decision, it would be obayed. Part of that right context is how the trust in the relationship works/is built. helen knows for instance that I will cause discomfort, I will cause pain... but I will go to quite some lengths to avoid causing 'harm', she knows this, trusts this and is part of why she feels safe in her submission to Me. The reasons I am unlikely to make a girl sleep on the floor if she would take so long to recover is partly if that length of time 'To ME' feels 'harmful' and of course because it will impair the girls ability to do other things for me in the time she is recovering. Balance that against the possible benifit to the dynamic, or whatever else I am taking into consideration at the time and having her sleep on the floor isn't likely to be the option chosen.... so I'd find another way to achieve things. But just stemming from the nature of the relationship, it IS an option. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl On the sleeping on the floor thing......Once, I was sent a text by my Master, in the middle of the night, telling me to get out of my big warm bed and sleep on the floor. I woke the next morning all grumpy, in a pile of pillows and duvet on the floor, wondering why the hell I'd had to do it. When he called me a little later and I grumbled about it, he had no idea what I was mithering about .......The text had been in my dream...grrrr He found that terribly amusing...lol [:D][:D][:D][:D] So do I [:D][:D][:D][:D] quote: ORIGINAL: txpet ::smile:: i've grumbled at Master telling Him, i don't want to (usually first thing in the morning ... i am SOOO not a morning person) and He's told me "you don't get to say that" ... even that makes me smiling-happy! helen has done similar and pouted when she has wanted to do something and I've told her no. But likewise her lovely smile has returned very soon after because she is mine and has been MY good girl. Padraig, I'll come back to yours my friend. Only starting the second coffee of the morning and I'll need a more fully awake brain than that to answer your usual high standard discussion. [:)]

agirl -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 3:18:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: txpet i did want to ask agirl .. do you say that you are not submissive because you only submit to your Master? Hello txpet, No, I am not submissive as a person...not because it's only him I submit to. I'm not dominant, either......I didn't choose this type of relationship because I'm a submissive..or from a desire to be submissive. Choosing to be owned by him, meant living life the way he lives it. The option of having a relationship with him, without being a slave, wasn't there. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't consider that I was in the lifestyle nor a slave, nor a submissive. I'd just be. I wouldn't seek it out as a way of life. It's IN my life because of him. My life doesn't revolve around making him happy, more like trying * not pissing him off too much.......because that tends to hurt*.........LOL Regards, agirl

caitlyn -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 7:35:27 AM)
General reply ... perhaps aimed a bit more at Padriag and RavenMuse. This is very good data, and very well thought out from my perspective. Also from my perspective, most of it assumes that the "target" submissive has a full or even partial understand of what they want, what they are looking for and what motivates them. I'm not sure this is always true, as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure this is mostly untrue. Not knowing what you want and/or what motivates you is a bad thing. Admitting you don't know is even worse. It may not be better to just wing it, but I would bet that is what most people do. A wonderful discussion.[:D]

SCORPIOXXX -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 7:57:52 AM)
In reply to all... "Control"... I agree with most all posters on the general theme that "Forced Control" is actually Subjugation, which of course is different from Submission -- the latter being infused with the Willingness to Submit. I have written my own version of a sub-slave's TRAINING MANUAL, and the last line in the section re: Control states the whole point quite simply: "True Control is based on mutual acceptance". That's all there is to it; everything else is bullshit, mental con jobs or just brute force. -- in which cases only the suicidal and brainless/spiritless are willing to stay, while anybody else would run at the first opportunity, just as plantation slaves ran whnever possible. As for having the subslave sleep on the floor: I love the female body too much to not have her in bed with me -- not to mention that if I want some in the middle of the night, she is right there and I only have to slip it in!

Padriag -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 8:33:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Also from my perspective, most of it assumes that the "target" submissive has a full or even partial understand of what they want, what they are looking for and what motivates them. I'm not sure this is always true, as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure this is mostly untrue. Not knowing what you want and/or what motivates you is a bad thing. Admitting you don't know is even worse. It may not be better to just wing it, but I would bet that is what most people do. A wonderful discussion.[:D] I agree that there are many who don't know what they want. I've seen it often enough, even very recently. One of the things I try to do is help a submissive figure that out, to at least accept her own desires and be comfortable enough with them to move forward with them. I also think you're right, many just wing it. I think that applies to many dominants out there as well. I think there are many submissives who just want to be swept away by charisma and not think at all about what they are doing. Thing is, I also watch many of those relationships fail over time because... well... they didn't think about what they are doing. Sometimes it seems like a terrible conundrum. But what I'm curious about is why you think its bad to admit not knowing what you want?

Bearlee -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 9:20:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse "...You might not ever like it, however, given the right context you might feel good about having done it 'for him'.[/quote] Awwwwwww… Raven, Sir… you’re right; I’d have felt good for having done it for him and likely enjoyed the wonderful feeling of being ‘owned’, too. It’s just that I have a problem with some of the Doms (and this would NOT include you) who seem to come from an ‘it’s all about serving me and nothing else’ place. You know…rough treatment, constant work; hell…slavery in the ‘usual’ context of the word. It seems some Dominants don’t want relationships; they want slaves. While that’s not an issue for a girl who wants only to be a slave…it wouldn’t work for me. I want a relationship. Of course, the occasional night on the floor or in a cage is not the same; so yes, I imagine I could be in a relationship and it IS his option to use that kind of punishment. It is likely, though, that whoever I am with would consider all the things you mention…and then decide if he wanted to have me sleep on the floor; not something an owner NOT in a relationship would probably do though…….me thinks. And like agirl mentioned: “*there are days when I wail that I HATE having to do something, HATE being a slave....only to be met with a laughing Master saying Oh well, you chose the wrong type of relationship then, my dear.* …” I’ve heard similar words myself and to be honest…they warmed my heart. beverly

caitlyn -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 12:41:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag But what I'm curious about is why you think its bad to admit not knowing what you want? While very much enjoying this thread, I don't think my contribution will really be all that helpful. The point I was trying to make, is that many times people might "seem" like they are difficult, when in truth they are just having a difficult time working through relationship confusion. I'm seeing someone right now ... the nicest guy I have ever dated ... that tells me I'm different then others he has dated, because I have a brain. And yet, his respect for my brain seems to vanish whenever I use it, and sky-rocket when I'm wearing huggers and a half shirt. I'm confused. But ... he is still the nicest guy I have ever dated. All my friends think I'm very lucky. Even more confusing ... it just feels like bullshit to me. Not that I blame him or guys like him. I'm a hundred times worse. I never seem to know what I want. About the only thing I know, is that as soon as I get it, I probably won't want it anymore. Answer to your question ... admitting you don't know what you want, makes you feel inadequate ... and the truth always hurts the most. [:D]

Padriag -> RE: Control (7/10/2006 1:02:16 PM)
You're contributions are just fine Caitlyn. Right now I can very much relate to the whole "confusion about the relationship" thing. Had someone recently end one with me because of that, or at least she seems pretty confused about it anyway. Not sure what to tell you about your guy. Seems like if he really respected your brain it wouldn't disappear when you use it. All I can say is, go with what your gut tells you. I've found that the times in my life when I didn't listen to what my gut was trying to tell me... I always ended up regretting it. As for not knowing what you want, you're young Caitlyn, and that's just part of it. Its hard to pick a flavor when there's 31 and you've never had any of them, ya know?

Mavis -> RE: Control (7/11/2006 1:44:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse quote: ORIGINAL: Mavis Not sure why i'm sharing such intimate details, Possibly because I touched a nerve? I've had a couple and spoken to a number of girls like this, all have felt a little confused and somewhat 'embarased' about it. Because they feel it is bad that they still are left with that need after their Master has dealt with the problem and can't stop beating themself up till they have gotten closure in the one way that is effective. To me, asking for that physical release isn't topping from the bottom. Like any request it is information that I can then make a decision on. Yes, gawd. lol. embarrassed enough that i ran and hid for a few days, only to come back and see this thread is still active. Can't seem to shake it. Noting the side discussion on punishment vs discipline, punishment is corrective, but discipline doesn't need to be. Medicine, Law, Art are "disciplines", discipline is merely another way to say training and progression in a channel of thought or behavior. The discipline of asking the hard things of me is the surest way to my heart, it says One cares enough to encourage my growth and draw me deeper into alignment with the overall plan. quote: The more developed the relationship, the more I can push, also the more she WANTS me to push (Because she knows I enjoy her pushing herself FOR me), possibly ending up 'harder' and more challenging situation-wise that the other approach because the girl works WITH me rather than against me. yes! lol. Master has a saying that If He's peddling bicycle built for two up a hill, and looks back to see me dragging feet on the ground, i'm getting off the damn bike. quote: Bearlee quoting agirl You are a slave who obeys her Master…yet you are not submissive? I wonder how that is possible. Surely submission is not determined by service, but rather yielding to authority…which seems to be what you have chosen to do. i can't answer for agirl, but when i say that, i mean i am not "naturally submissive". i believe i am hard-wired to seek a superior to answer to, but that doesn't mean i take a subordinate position to anyone without cause, and when i do, my choice is heat-sealed. :) i don't get off on helping strangers pack groceries in parking lots, helping old ladies across the street, or helping my friends pack to move. Either i am lazy or cold, i dunno which, but no. Make your own chicken soup. BUT, once i have decided i am to serve because of choice, or because of say, positional authority, ie a boss, i do so with a whole heart. quote: agirl: "The text had been in my dream..." LMAO. i like you. now that's all-pervasive service.

HollyS -> RE: Control (7/11/2006 7:30:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mavis Noting the side discussion on punishment vs discipline, punishment is corrective, but discipline doesn't need to be. Medicine, Law, Art are "disciplines", discipline is merely another way to say training and progression in a channel of thought or behavior. The discipline of asking the hard things of me is the surest way to my heart, it says One cares enough to encourage my growth and draw me deeper into alignment with the overall plan. I need to respectfully disagree with this. Punishment is simply a penalty for wrongdoing - it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being corrective (consider the term "capital punishment"). Here's what the American Heritage Dictionary says about "discipline": NOUN: Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control. Any of the following: Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order. A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline. A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom. Punishment intended to correct or train. A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order. A branch of knowledge or teaching. I'm drawn to discipline in all of its forms and, like you, find that discipline works for me when it's about growth and encouragement. Even when the consequence is unpleasant, if it's a logical consequence that I brought on myself, I'll learn from it. Punitive action has the effect of making me resentful, unfortunately, but I guess it's all in one's perspective. Anything that helps the people involved grow closer and more in line with the life they want is a good thing. ~Holly

agirl -> RE: Control (7/13/2006 2:28:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mavis [ quote: agirl: "The text had been in my dream..." LMAO. i like you. now that's all-pervasive service. LOL....If it WAS service, it certainly wasn't service with a smile. agirl

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