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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 11:59:39 AM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		~FRing it~

I've done my best to stay out of the fray on this, but Ive been reading and I've learned quite a bit. I agree, this subject is way bigger and there are many motivations as to why it is what it is.

So my question is specifically for MxyBunny (or perhaps a lurker who has read, but not said anything yet) because you are the only one I know so far that has identified as CD or a sissy. And if Ive gotten it twisted or I've mislabeled you, please accept my apology ahead of time because I promise that wasn't my intention at all. But it of course can be answered by anyone who is so inclined.

My question: if taking a break from the expectations placed on a man, why is women's clothing specifically the vehicle that drives the humiliation you get from this? I get that it's not what society would expect of a man, but you can get that same conflict with what society expects of a man by...say...wearing faux cat ears clipped to your head and a cat tail tied around your waist. It would fit the bill as far as emasculation, wouldn't it? And dare I say that it would probably cause some humiliation no matter what venue you might find yourself in as far as your day-to-day life goes. I don't know about anyone else, but Id certainly notice something like that. And personally, I doubt a cat would care one way or the other. As I look at my cat passed out and dead to the world asleep across the room from me, he clearly doesn't give a fuck about much of anything at the moment...let alone you using parts of what is commonly associated with his body as an implement to humiliate and denigrate you as a man.

I honestly get that "misogyny" is a very loaded term that people don't want to get painted with. I get that and I honestly can't say that I blame people for feeling that way. And while I am far from a "Feminazi" (a term I've seen in this thread), I too don't understand why clothing that is deemed "women's clothing" has become a tool used to humiliate and emasculate someone. Why is something designed to usually enhance what femininity I feel I have becomes a tool to humiliate and denigrate you just because you possess a penis? Me sitting here in my black hoodie, men's socks (they are damned comfortable), and my Beavis and Butthead men's fleece pants (including the useless penis escape hatch because...well...I have no penis) doesn't have me feeling all humiliated and denigrated as a woman. Why does my panties, bra, or dress have that effect on you?

To be clear, I neither look down on your kink or judge you for having it. Maybe it's like Peon said about not knowing why we do what we do. But I do think that self analysis...even for the sake of giving someone else a chance to understand where you are coming from...can't be a bad thing either. I'm very curious at the motivations and drives behind what makes people tick. So this is actually a fascinating subject and even laying aside the more heated aspects of it, I think it's a good thing to look at.


< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 11/26/2013 12:14:10 PM >

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 12:00:19 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

You don't get to decide what is or is not oppressive to women. You do not get to argue that humiliation in conjunction with feminization is not rooted in misogynistic tropes when most of the women who have posted on the thread have said they feel that it is. You also do not get to argue that we are wrong, because you do not experience this type of oppression. You get to listen and accept.



The obvious question: would you say the same but with those genders reversed? Would you listen and accept when a man is telling you about the oppression he feels (from women or, more crucially I think here, other men and an entrenched idea of masculinity)?



From an entrenched idea of masculinity, yes. But that oppression is more likely to come from other men and, again, traces back to misogynistic attitudes. I posted this article earlier and I think it speaks eloquently to that question: When Masculinity Fails Men. At this point in society, men are not and cannot be oppressed by women. Women simply do not have the power within the system to do that. That may change at some point, but it hasn't happened yet. If it does in my lifetime, you can be sure I will oppose it.



Broadly, I agree with that last. However, I'd tend to see misogyny not as the root of the problem but one of the symptoms. That is, patriarchy is the root; misogyny is one result; a world of nastiness for men of a different type. Re that nastiness, I think the article to which you link is quite good - the sub-headings of it pretty much encapsulate it for me: The Inherent Fragility of Manhood, To Be a Man Means To Be Afraid, It Means Men Can’t Trust Each Other, Masculinity Makes It Harder to Get Laid, Masculinity is Literally Hurting Men, Trapped In The Box. The only trouble is that the article stops at the most important place to start - it doesn't offer any advice on how to get out of that box.

For me, the start of that process of struggling out of that box is to do what feminists have done and taught (some of us) men to do: learn what our feelings really are rather than what we are told they are (or should be). I do believe that some CDs on this thread have been doing just that and it's to their credit. God knows, CDs rarely come in here and spell it out (beyond what turns them on and what they want from amenable femdoms, that is).



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 11/26/2013 12:02:48 PM >

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 12:11:26 PM   
JetOnly


Posts: 78
Joined: 11/6/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: JetOnly
I did have an assumption that everyone understood the term 'forced' in the context of BDSM and I assumed that people respected each others kinks and could put their perspectives forward without insulting people who were into the kink

I don't see Sylvere or ChatteParfaitt disrespecting kinks or insulting kinksters. I see them trying to place human activity into a cultural context. If someone else decides that's an insult, that's on them. My point to Sylvere was that I thought some of the way it was phrased was impeding constructive communication on the thread. I don't think she's wrong. Maybe she's wrong about the degree of misogyny, which was more or less Akasha's point -- I just don't have enough information to take a position one way or the other. But I think one point missing from Akasha's analysis is that maybe the men she pantied are getting hard because it makes her hot, and not from the panties themselves. So I don't find her position fully convincing, because "woman who likes a taboo" would arouse almost any het man.

Bottom line, I think Sylvere is more right than wrong, and I think you're making a mistake if you marginalize her points. I understand you want to defend and protect your friend, but that's not a good motivation for logical thinking.

:) I will alaways defend my friends when I dont feel they have done anything wrong and it is my fault, my mistake, that they are in the situation that I feel the need to defend them
I am not attempting to marginalize anyones posts, I have been on the internet long enough to know that it is possible to get wound up and sucked into flamewars that benifit noone so I purposely attempted to take a step away from the posters whos posts for whatever reason were making me feel that way. I know the nature of the internet that chances are I will strongly agree with them on other threads but in this thread I cannot see any benifit in us continuing. (that is not me telling anyone else what they can and cant do it is simply what I have chose to do in situations like this) However there are people such as yourself who I am having interesting conversations with so I dont want to step away from a thread that is giving me such a lot to think about

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 12:28:49 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		~ fast reply ~

I'm starting to develop a position about the forced feminization fetish, so I'll write it down, as much for my own benefit as anyone else's. Broad brush, at least on this thread, there are two kinds of forced feminization, which I'll call Female-inspired and Male-inspired.

Female-inspired: situations as described by Rochsub and Akasha. The man has no pre-existing feminization fantasy, and his dominant female partner makes him wear women's clothes. He is aroused, and learns to like it, at least with her.

Male-inspired: The man has this as a strong internal desire, possibly enjoying wearing women's clothes since well before puberty, and feeling wrong for doing so.

In reality, these are probably two ends of a spectrum, but for clarity I'll stick with them. I think there's a good chance that these are very different animals, even though they have the same named (forced fem) and superficially look the same. And I expect there's a lot more misogyny taking place in the second than in the first.

But the reasons for misogyny in male-inspired forced fem seem murky to me, and here's why: almost every man who is heavily porned up seems to have some anger toward women, and, at the very least, thinks of women as caricatures, not as three-dimensional beings in the material world. Akasha and OttersSwim described an evolution of having forced fem fantasies, then finding porn and having them reinforced, etc. Seems reasonable to me. And if one's experience with that fetish is self-indulgent, the fetishist will become more self-absorbed, and annoyed that real-world women won't participate with him the way the female cartoons in his mind do.

So how much anger toward, and misunderstanding of, women is due to forced fem, and how much is due to over-reliance on porn? They feed on each other, probably. Chicken or egg.

---

Different thought: people with a history of relationships, especially after living together, are more used to having their points challenged, and having to explain themselves to other people. Also, anyone who isn't a self-important twat has recognized times they said or did something hurtful, and then apologized for it. So they know they aren't perfect, and that sometimes they have to dial back and try to reconnect with others. People who don't have much of a relationship history outside of porn never developed those skills. So when someone puts forth a position that makes perfect sense to him, but doesn't know how to engage with others when they disagree with him, and doesn't know how to back off when he's crossed a social line, what I hear is, "I've been alone for a loooooong time."


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:00:30 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		You don't have to be a misogynist to participate in misogynistic behavior. That behavior, in thought, attitude, and often even action, is socialized in men and women and has been for centuries.

The "guys in the gym" who will think less of a man for wearing female clothing are participating in it and they may be fine and good human beings. You become less of a man in their eyes by wearing female clothing - the implication shouts blatantly even if they would be horrified to hear it - you become less of a man because they have been socialized to believe that "women are lesser than men"...

Masculine socialization teaches strength, reliance, and position = power. Emasculation removes that power - again the implication shouts blatantly - you are less of a man because "women are less powerful than men"...

Protector, provider, all the stuff that society drives into men's heads about who they MUST BE in order to be a man is incredibly misogynistic - even if the feelings and behaviors and intent behind them are basically good. They are misogynistic because the -focus- of these behaviors is more often than not - women and children.

Forced Feminization is an area where those concepts run into trouble.

And so, you wear panties and are humiliated. Doesn't mean that you are a bad person, nor that you are necessarily a misogynist. But that humiliation is very likely being driven by societal expectations of you as a man. And if your power, position, and credibility can be reduced by a single piece of women's clothing..both in your mind and in the minds of others...what message does that send to women?

Women as well have been and largely still are socialized to believe they are weaker (physically and socially) and require those aspects of men that they are taught they do not possess. When was the last time a guy was taught that he should desire to be "swept off his feet"?

I don't think most of the people seeking forced fem are bad people. They are simply behaving in a way that society has taught them to behave. But that behavior can point to a serious inequality in perceptions of strength, reliance, and position between men and women.

Strong women, looking for relationships where they are in charge, are naturally going to see that and bristle...

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:09:44 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And I buy into that thought process in a big way, you see, men are not naive, we are just shallow.   Some of us proud to be so.   I know absolutely that sex takes place in my reptile brain, I don't; and I don't think men in the main ever aspire to have it in higher level functions, it is just so lucious in that warm little closet.

Women on the other hand will take that process right up to egos and ids and whatevers in the higher orders, but men; there ain't gotta be a reason it is, it just is.




Exactly! I don't think women quite understand just how simple (and shallow) we are.

While some of the women in this thread are expecting men to go through a detailed analysis of their feelings, and to introspectively dissect the historical genesis of those feelings, that simply doesn't happen in most cases.

If I could share the exact thoughts that went on in my Neaderthal brain when I put on those panties, I think it went something like this:

"Pretty girl happy. Dick hard. ME HAPPY!"

That was probably the extent of it. No complex analysis of my feelings. No reflection on the societal impact of my actions. Just raw caveman responses to the stimuli.

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:17:08 PM   
JetOnly


Posts: 78
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline 		Yes I agree they can be some of the ways that people might like this kink
Also I wondered about males who have no desire to cross dress then read the real life experience of the likes of Rochsub and Akasha and the idea turns them on but because of the clear dislike that many people seem to have for it they are worried about bringing the idea up - so it becomes a hidden idea that builds into a secret fettish

Or the guy who likes to wear his partners underwear because it makes them think of them and how much he likes to see it on their partner?

I do agree tho that the porn world is bringing up a generation of people who have no understanding of what a real relationship can be like - vanilla or kink, it is a worry

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:18:39 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

And so, you wear panties and are humiliated. Doesn't mean that you are a bad person, nor that you are necessarily a misogynist. But that humiliation is very likely being driven by societal expectations of you as a man. And if your power, position, and credibility can be reduced by a single piece of women's clothing..both in your mind and in the minds of others...what message does that send to women?

..........Strong women, looking for relationships where they are in charge, are naturally going to see that and bristle...


I agree with this. Good points.

I will challenge you on one point though. Wearing the panties didn't diminish me in my own mind. That's why I was able to do it in front of so many other males. I knew that I was a better athlete than most (all?) of them, and that's a powerful currency in male culture. But I also knew that I could kick any of their a$$es, and that is also a very powerful currency in male culture. Frankly, that is why they looked, and even giggled, but NOT ONE OF THEM dared say anything.

One of the sad realities of male culture is that if I weren't physically stronger than most of them, I likely would have been teased, or even become the subject of bullying by the other males in the locker room.

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:27:15 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Fair enough Roch. I think you are one who isn't looking at this as a source of kinky humiliation even if you did feel a bit of awkwardness in the moment, and sexual excitement at the thought of pleasing a hot woman.


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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:48:13 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		It's quite lucky that you're compactly put together in that area of your body, Roch. Myself, I don't think I could get into a pair of women's knickers.

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:50:06 PM   
RedMagic1


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Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It's quite lucky that you're compactly put together in that area of your body, Roch. Myself, I don't think I could get into a pair of women's knickers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:50:40 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Meh, you could at least give it the old try, maybe grannie knickers, old boy.

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:50:52 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Oh man, I wondered how long it would be before this became a discussion of penis size...

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:53:12 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well Roch claims a 12 inch BBC, so I imagine Peon is trying for an anchor spot on BBC2.

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:53:37 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Oh man, I wondered how long it would be before this became a discussion of penis size...


Fie. I was of course referring to Roch's chiselled buttocks, not his penis.

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 1:55:39 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		LOL! Nice try Peon!

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 2:06:20 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's quite lucky that you're compactly put together in that area of your body, Roch. Myself, I don't think I could get into a pair of women's knickers.


Actually, it was a G-string, so there was almost no material there. Just a string (that gives you a terrible wedgie), and a silk triangle in the front. I don't even think it can accurately be called underwear.

Frankly, I don't understand why women bother to wear G-strings (unless they just enjoy wedgies).

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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 2:07:50 PM   
JetOnly


Posts: 78
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And I buy into that thought process in a big way, you see, men are not naive, we are just shallow.   Some of us proud to be so.   I know absolutely that sex takes place in my reptile brain, I don't; and I don't think men in the main ever aspire to have it in higher level functions, it is just so lucious in that warm little closet.

Women on the other hand will take that process right up to egos and ids and whatevers in the higher orders, but men; there ain't gotta be a reason it is, it just is.




Exactly! I don't think women quite understand just how simple (and shallow) we are.

While some of the women in this thread are expecting men to go through a detailed analysis of their feelings, and to introspectively dissect the historical genesis of those feelings, that simply doesn't happen in most cases.

If I could share the exact thoughts that went on in my Neaderthal brain when I put on those panties, I think it went something like this:

"Pretty girl happy. Dick hard. ME HAPPY!"

That was probably the extent of it. No complex analysis of my feelings. No reflection on the societal impact of my actions. Just raw caveman responses to the stimuli.

:) and I LOVE and abuse that neaderthal brian. A well hidden secret is us girls get that as well sometimes

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 2:10:09 PM   
JetOnly


Posts: 78
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's quite lucky that you're compactly put together in that area of your body, Roch. Myself, I don't think I could get into a pair of women's knickers.


Actually, it was a G-string, so there was almost no material there. Just a string (that gives you a terrible wedgie), and a silk triangle in the front. I don't even think it can accurately be called underwear.

Frankly, I don't understand why women bother to wear G-strings (unless they just enjoy wedgies).


Cos the wedgies are much smaller than a whole load of panties in a bunch :D I like my butt cheeks and a little wrapping is appealing to tease

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
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RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? - 11/26/2013 2:12:27 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Perhaps you felt more masculine because you were sexually pleasing a woman you found attractive, and simultaneously more emasculated because, well, panties and locker room stares? A luscious predicament.


This is how I saw it. Perhaps it's a simplistic way to look at it. I'm sure that there are centuries of societal values and programming that were the underlying reasons for my response. But I just saw it as "I'm embarrassed to to this, but I'm gonna do it because this beautiful woman that I would do anything to please has commanded me to do so". Then to my utter surprise, I got a raging boner when I put on the panties. At that moment, I discovered a new source of arousal. I didn't fully understand it, but the stiff-as-iron erection was proof that I was aroused.

Call me a Neanderthal, but the acceptance of Her command, and my own erotic response to it was all that I really cared about in that scenario. The vast history of sexism and female oppression never entered my mind.


For a lot of men it comes down to this:

Panties = pussy = boner.

Ladies, you are way overthinking this.

Akasha


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