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DesideriScuri -> Common Core (11/25/2013 1:54:20 PM)
What are your opinions on Common Core? I haven't looked into it too much, so I'm only going to say that my opinion is that I don't know much about it at all. I have a couple teacher friends that I'm going to ask their opinions. But I ran across an article and the headline made me laugh: Principals say Common Core tests make little kids vomit, pee their pants I read the article, and supposedly, there is a letter that 8 NY State Principals penned about Common Core. I read the article and the letter. I don't know if my kids' School District has jumped into CC yet or not. Over the past year or so, I have heard all sorts of teeth gnashing, wailing, and apocalyptic cries of doom from conservative talking heads. I largely ignored them. But, now, I want to know WTF is going on. The .pdf of the letter (Here) contains 70 pages of parents and educators (the site claims 545 Principals and 3k "friends" (I assume the "friends" category includes educators other than Principals as there are lots of teachers and other educators listed within the pages of signatories)). Are these people being whiners, or do their complaints have merit? Any of you have anecdotes (positive or negative) regarding CC?

DomKen -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 2:22:56 PM)
Common Core as educational standards are fine. They were developed by professionals and if actually followed would greatly improve what the average school district teaches. That the standards are not subject to the whims and politics of local and state school boards is where a lot of the complaints come from. The other source of complaints is that the standards are rigorous and are showing a lot of parents that their precious child is not as smart as they want to believe. The actual standards http://www.corestandards.org/the-standards/download-the-standards

MercTech -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 2:25:34 PM)
It has gotten out of control. Gad, I took Stanford Achievement Tests twice a year until I graduated high school. There was no job jeopardy for the teachers and no axe hanging over the head. No one was informed of individual scores. (That was left for the college bound sweat factories of the SAT and ACT tests.) What was it for? So the school board could gauge whether the curriculum they had approved was actually getting things taught....PERIOD! Do remember raising hell with teh 8th grade exam. Why? The achievement tests used a totally different nomenclature than our "New Math" textbooks. Sigh, I had a lot of studying on my own to learn standard mathematical notation when I got to high school and away from "New Math".

BamaD -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 2:34:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech It has gotten out of control. Gad, I took Stanford Achievement Tests twice a year until I graduated high school. There was no job jeopardy for the teachers and no axe hanging over the head. No one was informed of individual scores. (That was left for the college bound sweat factories of the SAT and ACT tests.) What was it for? So the school board could gauge whether the curriculum they had approved was actually getting things taught....PERIOD! Do remember raising hell with teh 8th grade exam. Why? The achievement tests used a totally different nomenclature than our "New Math" textbooks. Sigh, I had a lot of studying on my own to learn standard mathematical notation when I got to high school and away from "New Math". I haven't seen the standards but I saw how they want math taught. It makes "new math" look really good by comparison.

Krondool -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 2:52:34 PM)
Seems to me most of the complaints are 1) We can't impose local ideology on the standards (fine by me, science should be science, not theology), and 2) It's too hard (Well, WAH WAH kids go to school to learn, not be coddled and pampered, parent's are doing entirely too much of that nowadays without any outside help).

DesideriScuri -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 2:56:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Common Core as educational standards are fine. They were developed by professionals and if actually followed would greatly improve what the average school district teaches. That the standards are not subject to the whims and politics of local and state school boards is where a lot of the complaints come from. The other source of complaints is that the standards are rigorous and are showing a lot of parents that their precious child is not as smart as they want to believe. The actual standards http://www.corestandards.org/the-standards/download-the-standards I can understand your point about the parents having to face that their kids aren't as smart as they thought. But, the standards shouldn't have been up to the whims of local/State politics as it was anyway. What's the beef from educators, that the students they are teaching really aren't learning and now there is proof? I'm a lame pun artist in my real life (I'm not even close to being lame here). I was picking up some pizza and the total came to $17.97. I, without losing a beat, gave the guy my card and said, "that was a good year." He didn't understand at all. My oldest asked me what I said once we got back into the van, so I told him. I said it was just a joke and nothing more. It would have been better, I told him, if the total had been $17.76 or $17.91. He was clueless. None of my kids had any clue why 1776 or 1791 were important years. I have 3, one in 7th grade, and 2 in 4th grade. Am I wrong, or shouldn't they have known those dates? A gal I'm good friends with has two kids (9th, and 6th grades) and the older one knew 1776, but neither knew 1791. Is this common, or are these 5 kids just, well...? None of these kids are stupid, and current standardized tests bear that out. But, damn!

joether -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 3:16:35 PM)
Conservatives HATE having to use their brains for anything BUT a paper weight on a desk. How many freaking threads have conservative minded individuals entered into, presented a view that says "This person is an idiot" on high level science threads (i.e. Theory of Climate Change)? Or on Economics? The Affordable Care Act? The number of complex and complicated subject matter this nations has to deal with is not only huge but growing. At the same time, we have conservatives dumbing themselves down both with the frontal section of their brain (handles reasoning, thinking, creativity, etc.) and the back half (handles emotions and reactions to environmental condition changes). The notion that if they become idiots, the world will become idiots too (see logic....). So I'm not at all surprise conservatives are bitching about this test. Most of them would fail the 3rd grade section as well. So what is the purpose of the Common Core? To set standards by which every child within a grade level can be measured at the minimal degree of success. Much like a Bachelor's or Master's degree states one has met the minimal requirements for that level of education, the Common Core measures the same level at the grade levels (and high school). The Common Core can be found here. I'm alittle surprised that you did no provide a link to it, DS. Now then, the test is broken down by grade level (Kindergarten to High School). With High School being further broken down into more complex concepts. The questions themselves seem more complicated than they REALLY need to be: 3rd Grade Mathematics: SOURCE: "Interpret whole-number quotients of whole numbers, e.g., interpret 56 ÷ 8 as the number of objects in each share when 56 objects are partitioned equally into 8 shares, or as a number of shares when 56 objects are partitioned into equal shares of 8 objects each. For example, describe a context in which a number of shares or a number of groups can be expressed as 56 ÷ 8." It sounds more complicated than it needs to be....at a HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL. But this is 3rd grade, right? I understand the test desires feel children should learn mathematics are a practical application in life and not just left to abstract usage. But this is going to the extreme. Oh, and this is NOT an example of a test question. This is where some of the fear among adults originates from. Questions like the one above. Grade 3 Mathematic Test Questions for the Common Core Another example question is: Construct a problem that makes the following diagram correct: _____ X _____ = ________ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Its a bit more advance to what you might have remembered in the 3rd grade, but then there are two reasons for it: A ) Your memory of EVERY test you took in 3rd Grade is not as good as your memory of events from three years ago, AND B ) Kids are in a more sophisticated world. How did this all originate? We can blame conservatives for this. They hate the idea of teaching kids to think for themselves (cus that would be like...Liberal Thinking), but instead to answer questions like robots. The 'No Child Left Behind Act' was so horribly designed and implemented (not to mention poorly funded) by Republicans. And there is the part were conservatives kept bitching at teachers to 'get real jobs' and not be 'slaves to the union' (aka reduce labor union political power). So those people did just that, convince your school systems of this test, and reaped the profits by having conservative minded parent's kids score badly because you forced teachers to make them think like robots instead of intelligent young minds (i.e. teach to the test, NOT, teach free thinking). All in all, conservatives got what they demanded ten and more years ago and NOW, are STILL, bitching about it. Frankly its harder to please a conservative in education than a diva who knows she is desired by all. When you interject your political viewpoint into education without tempering it with a healthy dose of wisdom, your going to get more crap than worth out of the process.

joether -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 3:38:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I can understand your point about the parents having to face that their kids aren't as smart as they thought. But, the standards shouldn't have been up to the whims of local/State politics as it was anyway. What's the beef from educators, that the students they are teaching really aren't learning and now there is proof? The Texas School Board is the largest purchaser of textbooks in the United States. So its fair to say many educational publishers will tailor their learning materials for sale in text. The problem as we have seen over time, is the number of religious zealots holding conservative political deciding what Texas school children will learn. Many other states simply by the text books as they are not affluent or deep-pocketed enough to warrant attention towards their own views of how a child should learn material. So 'yes', state/local politics do get in the way of many such tests. People say they are good at something until they are really tested and fail. Same applies to children. The tests are not how smart the child is, but how much of that accumulated knowledge can be applied to answer questions. Conservatives view poor test scores as the teacher's fault. When the really guilty party is the one attacking the educators in the first place: conservatives. Conservatives were the ones that demanded all these tests in the first place. Curious how not one of them takes responsibility and ownership for what they demanded previously, eh? quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I'm a lame pun artist in my real life (I'm not even close to being lame here). I was picking up some pizza and the total came to $17.97. I, without losing a beat, gave the guy my card and said, "that was a good year." He didn't understand at all. My oldest asked me what I said once we got back into the van, so I told him. I said it was just a joke and nothing more. It would have been better, I told him, if the total had been $17.76 or $17.91. He was clueless. None of my kids had any clue why 1776 or 1791 were important years. I have 3, one in 7th grade, and 2 in 4th grade. Am I wrong, or shouldn't they have known those dates? Conservatives ship their kids off to school as a metaphorical day care center. An feel they should not have to be responsible in educating them for one nanosecond! Guess what? If those two dates were important to conservatives, their kids would know them. Kids of conservative politically minded parents are going to follow their parent's examples of life in their own lives. For better and worst results. When they come home, its up to you to make sure they do their homework and CHECK the material. Ask them what they are learning in school. Have frequent chats with their teachers. An support them directly. Its really up to you to do these things. Its a huge amount of work, but the payoff is worth it! quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri A gal I'm good friends with has two kids (9th, and 6th grades) and the older one knew 1776, but neither knew 1791. Is this common, or are these 5 kids just, well...? None of these kids are stupid, and current standardized tests bear that out. But, damn! Case in point. Most people know what 9/11/01 refers to, but not 4/19/95. Both are very tragic days for the United States. And the only difference is six years. Now why do you suppose that is? An that is one example of the problem: If something is not relevant the chance it'll be studied and learned is less likely. When education is not an important priority to the parent, it becomes the same for the child. After the child scores badly, the parent berates the wrong parties: the child, the teacher(s) and the school. But they will NEVER beret the responsible party: themselves. I've observed in households with conservative politically minded parents this happens quite a bit more often.

MsMJAY -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 3:39:30 PM)
I think its very interesting that in both articles they are complaining about the testing rather than the curriculum. The bottom line is that there does have to be a standard and a uniform way of measuring that standard. That's Common Core. Yes a lot of people will complain that it is hard. And they are not wrong; it is indeed hard. As it should be. When my unmentionable started bringing home the new math and language curriculum at first I was a little put off by it because I was accustomed to her making "easy A's." She has to work a little harder for this and I have to work with her. Even our "good schools" in the US are behind on a global standard. A lot of what they have been teaching in US schools over the years has been "pour and puke" and required memorization rather than thinking. Common core means that the students are going to have to think, comprehend and understand their answers. Not just use "test taking tricks" to guess the best answer. (Which is what the vast majority of schools have been teaching them to do.) Educators are complaining about testing. Students and parents are complaining about the math and English. We all should be complaining that our students are behind and we should be willing to do whatever it takes to help them catch up. So to answer your question: yes- whiners.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 3:48:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Blah blah blah Conservatives are stupid blah blah blah Now, that I summed up most of what you just said... I haven't done any cross-sectional polling and a quick googling didn't give any insights into the political bent of El-Hi educators, but most of the people involved in education tend to be more liberal than conservative. Yet, here we have a bunch of educators (Principals, teachers, professors, etc.) that are opposed to CC. It's possible that these are all conservative educators, too. Why would I need to link to the Common Core Standards? I was asking for opinions and experiences with them. If you have opinions, I assume you would have had some contact with the standards, thus, no need to link to them. If you have had experiences, it doesn't matter if you've read the standards or not. Again, no need to link to them.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 4:28:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I'm a lame pun artist in my real life (I'm not even close to being lame here). I was picking up some pizza and the total came to $17.97. I, without losing a beat, gave the guy my card and said, "that was a good year." He didn't understand at all. My oldest asked me what I said once we got back into the van, so I told him. I said it was just a joke and nothing more. It would have been better, I told him, if the total had been $17.76 or $17.91. He was clueless. None of my kids had any clue why 1776 or 1791 were important years. I have 3, one in 7th grade, and 2 in 4th grade. Am I wrong, or shouldn't they have known those dates? Conservatives ship their kids off to school as a metaphorical day care center. An feel they should not have to be responsible in educating them for one nanosecond! Guess what? If those two dates were important to conservatives, their kids would know them. Kids of conservative politically minded parents are going to follow their parent's examples of life in their own lives. For better and worst results. When they come home, its up to you to make sure they do their homework and CHECK the material. Ask them what they are learning in school. Have frequent chats with their teachers. An support them directly. Its really up to you to do these things. Its a huge amount of work, but the payoff is worth it! That last paragraph was a load of bullshit. Little more than more conservative bashing from you. Now, I'm divorced and the boys live with her. I don't see them every day. She does. When I do get them, I do talk to them about their schoolwork and make sure they get their homework done. I'm not there every day for them any more. So, for you to make it sound like parents are failing their kids and not that they aren't being taught. The boys do well, grade wise, so they are performing just fine on tests (which should be a metric of what they are being taught). I'm not saying the teachers are at fault, though, either. It could very well be the curriculum. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri A gal I'm good friends with has two kids (9th, and 6th grades) and the older one knew 1776, but neither knew 1791. Is this common, or are these 5 kids just, well...? None of these kids are stupid, and current standardized tests bear that out. But, damn! Case in point. Most people know what 9/11/01 refers to, but not 4/19/95. Both are very tragic days for the United States. And the only difference is six years. Now why do you suppose that is? An that is one example of the problem: If something is not relevant the chance it'll be studied and learned is less likely. When education is not an important priority to the parent, it becomes the same for the child. After the child scores badly, the parent berates the wrong parties: the child, the teacher(s) and the school. But they will NEVER beret the responsible party: themselves. I've observed in households with conservative politically minded parents this happens quite a bit more often. You've seen it in conservative households. It happens quite a bit in liberal households, too. Quit trying to spin it as only conservatives.

joether -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 5:07:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: joether Blah blah blah Conservatives are stupid blah blah blah Now, that I summed up most of what you just said... HAHAHAHA....cute! quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I haven't done any cross-sectional polling and a quick googling didn't give any insights into the political bent of El-Hi educators, but most of the people involved in education tend to be more liberal than conservative. Yet, here we have a bunch of educators (Principals, teachers, professors, etc.) that are opposed to CC. It's possible that these are all conservative educators, too. Think on how conservatives and liberals handle the idea of education in America. They both have very different views on how education should handle the multitude of problems faced by educators and the nation's young. Teachers formed unions because they were often cut down right and left by those wanting to 'save taxpayer dollars' (which political viewpoint is this?). As a result, teachers were paid less and less, and the nation's children became less and less educated to their grade level. Is their a correlation there? Perhaps. Though I find when students do poorly on tests, they do not blame themselves for failure, but anyone around them. Kids do watch adults in how they handle blame, and imitate that behavior (Childhood Psychology). Adults, even when completely in the wrong, will STILL, blame other factors and people and NOT themselves for fault. For example, who REALLY should have gotten impeached by Republicans for lying to the nation and Congress? Bill Clinton or George W. Bush? Parents get 'yelled' at by the kids in the form of them coming home and crying about the their scores. Problem is many parents do not educate themselves enough to know what their kid is learning and are caught off guard. Without stopping and examining the material to understand what it is, where it was conducted and why the parent knew nothing about it; yeah, they often go ballistic on school principles and teachers! Principles and teachers do not like getting yelled at by parents for obvious reasons. So they devise this protest on the Common Core as a metaphorical shield to say "I'm required by law to do this, but protest it". Conservatives in many states of the Union were the ones that pushed for this crap. Just look up the evidence! quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Why would I need to link to the Common Core Standards? I was asking for opinions and experiences with them. If you have opinions, I assume you would have had some contact with the standards, thus, no need to link to them. If you have had experiences, it doesn't matter if you've read the standards or not. Again, no need to link to them. When discussing ANYTHING in a political arena, it is usually a wise idea to agree on the definition of something. In science, the definition of something is just as important as the words used. For example there is a definition to the "Theory of Climate Change". When we agree on the definition we can engage in the discussion knowing the definitions are relatively 'set in stone'. In simple form, its math: I have a rock in one hand and a rock in my other hand, how many rocks do I have in my hands? We would all say 'two', right? That is the definition for two in this particular case. So I presented the Common Core link, so that everyone can review it to understand what is being discussed. Would that not be a wise thing for us to do so early in the discussion?

DomKen -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 5:27:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech It has gotten out of control. Gad, I took Stanford Achievement Tests twice a year until I graduated high school. There was no job jeopardy for the teachers and no axe hanging over the head. No one was informed of individual scores. (That was left for the college bound sweat factories of the SAT and ACT tests.) What was it for? So the school board could gauge whether the curriculum they had approved was actually getting things taught....PERIOD! Do remember raising hell with teh 8th grade exam. Why? The achievement tests used a totally different nomenclature than our "New Math" textbooks. Sigh, I had a lot of studying on my own to learn standard mathematical notation when I got to high school and away from "New Math". I haven't seen the standards but I saw how they want math taught. It makes "new math" look really good by comparison. Care to support that? I looked at the math standards and it looked fine to me. I was impressed that the standards required algebraic thinking before high school.

DomKen -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 5:33:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Common Core as educational standards are fine. They were developed by professionals and if actually followed would greatly improve what the average school district teaches. That the standards are not subject to the whims and politics of local and state school boards is where a lot of the complaints come from. The other source of complaints is that the standards are rigorous and are showing a lot of parents that their precious child is not as smart as they want to believe. The actual standards http://www.corestandards.org/the-standards/download-the-standards I can understand your point about the parents having to face that their kids aren't as smart as they thought. But, the standards shouldn't have been up to the whims of local/State politics as it was anyway. What's the beef from educators, that the students they are teaching really aren't learning and now there is proof? From what I can tell most of the teacher complaints are of two sorts. First is the complaint that the parents get all bent out of shape when the tests show their kid is average. Second is that the standards actually require teaching. I think a lot of teachers have gotten complacent about simply having students memorize and prep for standardized tests. That approach won't work with Common Core. As to whether kids should know the significance of 1776 and 1791, they certainly should. Although atm Common core only covers English and mathematics so it won't help directly. AIUI science standards are under development and I'd assume the social sciences would also get the Common Core treatment.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 6:21:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether When discussing ANYTHING in a political arena, it is usually a wise idea to agree on the definition of something. In science, the definition of something is just as important as the words used. For example there is a definition to the "Theory of Climate Change". When we agree on the definition we can engage in the discussion knowing the definitions are relatively 'set in stone'. In simple form, its math: I have a rock in one hand and a rock in my other hand, how many rocks do I have in my hands? We would all say 'two', right? That is the definition for two in this particular case. So I presented the Common Core link, so that everyone can review it to understand what is being discussed. Would that not be a wise thing for us to do so early in the discussion? Actually, no. If people didn't know what was being discussed, they wouldn't have an informed opinion on it, or they wouldn't have had any experience with it. Thus, I'm not truly looking for their input. I have not put a lot of effort into digging into CC. I'm not sure if it's worth the effort, for me. Thus, I addressed the assembed CollarChat P&R denizens for input. If there are greatly conflicting viewpoints on it, and both seem at least plausible, I'll take the time. If not, it'll be yet another thing that I don't spend time with. Like I said, I've heard all sorts of horror predictions from conservative talking heads, and have, admittedly, not formed an opinion yet. Thus, I've been choosing to not spend time on it, but now, it seems like there is more blowback and not just from typically conservative sources. Hence, my request for opinions and experiences from my fellow kinksters...

EdBowie -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 9:06:03 PM)
You can't use the lowest common denominator to make everyone above average.

DomKen -> RE: Common Core (11/25/2013 10:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Now then, the test is broken down by grade level (Kindergarten to High School). With High School being further broken down into more complex concepts. The questions themselves seem more complicated than they REALLY need to be: 3rd Grade Mathematics: SOURCE: "Interpret whole-number quotients of whole numbers, e.g., interpret 56 ÷ 8 as the number of objects in each share when 56 objects are partitioned equally into 8 shares, or as a number of shares when 56 objects are partitioned into equal shares of 8 objects each. For example, describe a context in which a number of shares or a number of groups can be expressed as 56 ÷ 8." It sounds more complicated than it needs to be....at a HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL. But this is 3rd grade, right? I understand the test desires feel children should learn mathematics are a practical application in life and not just left to abstract usage. But this is going to the extreme. Oh, and this is NOT an example of a test question. This is where some of the fear among adults originates from. Questions like the one above. But that isn't a question for a test. It is part of the standard. what it says is a 3rd grader should understand how division works in the real world. IOW that if you have 56 apples it can be broken down into 7 groups of 8 or 8 groups of 7. That's a pretty fundamental concept in math.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Common Core (11/26/2013 3:41:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie You can't use the lowest common denominator to make everyone above average. I'm not sure what you're referring to, Ed.

leonine -> RE: Common Core (11/26/2013 5:29:25 AM)
When my son needed to get a job in the US, he checked and found that the surest way was to get a teaching diploma here in the UK. He explained that when "No Child Left Behind" called for lots more teachers, but didn't provide any extra money to train them, the target was met by dropping the standards and turning out "qualified" teachers who knew less than their classes. So any school that can afford it, hires teachers with foreign diplomas. So yes, some of the US trained ones may well be outraged that they're now being expected to do a job they were never trained for.

DomKen -> RE: Common Core (11/26/2013 5:49:19 AM)
One of the weird things about US education is that in most places only high school teachers need a degree in something besides "education." So most elementary and middle school teachers really don't know much about the subjects they teach.

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