RE: ADDICTS

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LafayetteLady -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 2:12:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic NOBODY can get the addict to that resolution, except the addict him/herself. Neither is it about a clear state of mind. It has to happen in the mind they have. This is true. No one but the person concerned can make and stick to a decision to get healthy. And that decision might be made in the fuzziest of circumstances. Because they may be the only circumstances available. Does this mean the rest of us don't have to do anything but sit around and wait for the person to arrive at this significant marker? NO. Does it mean that understanding and compassion should be withheld until such time as they are going to produce results? NO. Does it mean that there is nothing that can be done until the person is ready to make and commit to the decision to get healthy? NO. Theres is a whole range of things that can be done to assist addicts until they get to the point where they begin recovery. Keeping them alive is one very obvious thing. Ensuring they use in hygienic situations and minimise the risk of infections and disease is another. Making safe using equipment freely available. Ensuring that appropriate support and recovery services are nearby and accessible. Even very basic things like ensuring they have access to good food showers and shelter Services such as those just outlined will not only help addicts survive their addictions, minimising the negative impacts of an addict's lifestyle, they will also subtly influence decisions to stop using and start living healthier lifestyles. The knowledge that ultimately recovery is in the hands of the addict alone should not be used as an excuse to do nothing, to wash society's hands of addicts completely, and to just sit around waiting for a miracle. It doesn't justify a 'tough love' approach. Bullshit. I grew up with a heroin addict (my brother). Until you have done so, you have no clue what it is like for the family of the addict. A roof over their heads? Sure, and when the police come to your house and find the drugs, they take your house even though the owner is the addict. Have some nice things? Better have a good safe, because the addict will steal anything they can to get their next fix. And let's not forget when they aren't able to get that fix and are jonesing for it. You don't "tough love" is justified? I don't think my mother deserved to have her ribs broken when my brother threw a full bleach bottle at her because she wouldn't give him his way. I don't think I should have had to climb out my bedroom window, because of the rage of not being able to get a fix had him trying to break down my door and stab me with a knife. Oh and let's not forget the time he spit in my face and said, "there, I just gave you AIDS." Sure, let's treat addicts with kid gloves. After all they are just misunderstood. My brother died of a heroin overdose when he was 24, just seven months after my father died. My heart broke for my mother for having to suffer such grief. But not a day in my life in the 25 years since I planned his funeral have I grieved his death. He was a blight on my family, and each time he was arrested, he was released, each treatment program that we fought to get him into failed. He was a miserable son of a bitch and he did nothing but cause my parents pain his whole life. Me? I had him arrested when I knew he had drugs in the house, and I don't regret it a minute. Your suggestion puts every person in that addicts life in potential danger. I know because I've lived it. Tough love is EXACTLY how addicts need to be handled. Nothing else gets through

directiveerror -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 2:14:20 PM)
there was also this program in ...hmmm india i think it was(could definitely be wrong on that) that is just 3 days and has even better results. it is run by monks and pretty much you just spend 3 days vomiting into a trough with every other addict and drinking more of their vomit juice and doing it again..... apparently people stay of the drugs just because they dont want to do it again. oh thailand http://worldblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/10/10365220-want-to-be-drug-free-thai-monks-prescribe-projectile-vomiting

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 2:42:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML If the brain is not the mind or if the mind is not a function of the brain . . . where lies the mind? From whence cometh the subjective? quote: That's a very good question, and one that has occupied the greatest human minds for millennia. So I'm happy for you that you believe your claims and arguments show us the answer at last: The mind is the brain. Poof. End of problem. Unfortunately, everybody knows that you don't know either, and it is ridiculous to demand that your proposition be accorded standing unless someone else, who also doesn't know, can defeat it by arguing something they don't know. Why can't you just admit this is something we don't understand, and that you've adopted your explanation because it accords with your fondly held beliefs about other things you don't really know. Sort of like some kind of religion thing. The greatest human minds for millennia (your priests) did not have the benefit of knowledge in neuroscience. At the very least, experiments in neuroscience show us the brain as locus for the mind is the default position unless you have evidence suggesting elsewhere. [:D]

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 2:53:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Those pleasures are not perceived; they are physiologically mandated. Bullshit. People who are not pre-wired for addiction get high right along with those who are going to have a problem. What is your baseline of experience with such substances, Vince? "Physiologically" is not the same as "genetically." You are making my point. And that was the central issue that Mate' raised. What is your baseline for knowledge of biology, Rich?

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 2:56:42 PM)
quote: The main topic at hand is too involved and nuanced for me to summon the energy to discuss on this forum Vincent but I must confess to taking particular umbrage at this sentiment. Dealing with addicts and the mentally ill is extremely difficult, frequently terrifying, and often very physically dangerous. Apologies, Wendel.

truckinslave -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 4:29:14 PM)
quote: Those pleasures are not perceived; they are physiologically mandated. Not at all. I'll speak only of alcohol because thats where the majority of my experience lies; but other drugs are similar. Alcohol produces predictable and (usually) similar physical reactions. But the emotional response to those reactions varies greatly among individuals. Some people do not like the feeling of getting violently drunk. Somewhere around "tipsy" they start to feel out of control and moderate or curtail their consumption. That's where their "pleasure" ends- but it's where it begins for the current or future alcoholic. I put parentheses around "usually" because those too vary. I drank to the blackout level at least 4 or 5 times a week for several years. The normal human cannot go there- their body either rejects the poison by vomiting or they pass out. And it's not just a question of increased tolerance, either. I drank to a blackout the first time I ever drank. My body, my mind, my psyche all loved it. The lucky ones dont.

truckinslave -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 4:38:02 PM)
quote: but let me assure you that there have been a multitude of studies done proving that the longer the recovery program, the better the results. I can easily accept that as true. But- if you really want to get sober, clean, whatever, and to stay that way, there are lots of people willing to help. Including me and most of the two dozen or so people who helped me save my life. Some have passed on, but of course have been replaced. Le roi est mort. Vive le roi!!

GotSteel -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 4:42:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Violating the social contract means not helping those in need. The social contract is an agreement between members of a society. We agree to conform to certain rules and governance and gain the benefits of those rules and governance in return. When one breaks the social contract with the crack smoking that person has voided previous obligations to being treated the way a member in good standing would.

truckinslave -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 4:52:29 PM)
I'd sorta like to see a copy of that contract. Sounds like he thinks Karl Marx wrote it.

Kirata -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 5:33:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The greatest human minds for millennia (your priests) did not have the benefit of knowledge in neuroscience. At the very least, experiments in neuroscience show us the brain as locus for the mind is the default position unless you have evidence suggesting elsewhere. My priests. Heh. What a cute fellow you are, and a regular Fred Astaire with words in the bargain. Where did the phrase "locus for the mind" enter into our discussion? Nowhere, that I recall. And what does it mean? How can this "mind" of which you speak have the brain as its "locus" if the mind is the brain? And if the mind is the brain, why should we be impressed by experiments in neuroscience showing that the brain is the locus of the brain? Also, how many of these fish do you have in your basket? K.

LafayetteLady -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 7:54:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: but let me assure you that there have been a multitude of studies done proving that the longer the recovery program, the better the results. I can easily accept that as true. But- if you really want to get sober, clean, whatever, and to stay that way, there are lots of people willing to help. Including me and most of the two dozen or so people who helped me save my life. Some have passed on, but of course have been replaced. Le roi est mort. Vive le roi!! I'm talking mainly about those on hard drugs (not looking for a discussion where alcohol fits in there). I believe in AA, and all the other "_A" organizations. They offer great support. With drugs like heroin, however, a hardcore addict will do better on programs I mentioned. Even hardcore alcoholics. My landlord was sober for many years. Then his second wife died, and through the grief he spiraled right back into a vodka bottle. There seemed to be no rock bottom that sent him to recovery. He literally lost control of his bowels all over the house (that alone would send me a message). In any case, through his previous employer, he entered a residential recovery program where while the typical stay was six months, if a patient said they weren't ready, they were allowed to stay, and continuing working on their recovery. I can honestly say this was a type of program I hadn't heard of before, but can also see that it has immense potential. He stayed for six months and then moved to Florida where most of his family had relocated years before. It was everyone's (including me) hope that being near family and the support he would have that he could stay sober. Sadly, he is drowning in the bottle again. But while he may not be the shining example of how those extended programs are the most successful, it is as you said, until the pain of those pleasures become too difficult to bear, sobriety isn't going to happen. All the support and handling with kid gloves in the world isn't going to do a thing until that happens.

TheHeretic -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 7:59:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML What is your baseline for knowledge of biology, Rich? 101, plus some additional readings later, dealing with the neurochemistry of just the matter we are discussing with here. I keep telling you, Mate isn't offering anything new. Geology was much more interesting though. See how easy it is to answer a question? Care to try the one you quoted, but still dodged?

tweakabelle -> RE: ADDICTS (12/1/2013 10:13:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic NOBODY can get the addict to that resolution, except the addict him/herself. Neither is it about a clear state of mind. It has to happen in the mind they have. The knowledge that ultimately recovery is in the hands of the addict alone should not be used as an excuse to do nothing, to wash society's hands of addicts completely, and to just sit around waiting for a miracle. It doesn't justify a 'tough love' approach. Bullshit. I grew up with a heroin addict (my brother). Until you have done so, you have no clue what it is like for the family of the addict. A roof over their heads? Sure, and when the police come to your house and find the drugs, they take your house even though the owner is the addict. Have some nice things? Better have a good safe, because the addict will steal anything they can to get their next fix. And let's not forget when they aren't able to get that fix and are jonesing for it. You don't "tough love" is justified? I don't think my mother deserved to have her ribs broken when my brother threw a full bleach bottle at her because she wouldn't give him his way. I don't think I should have had to climb out my bedroom window, because of the rage of not being able to get a fix had him trying to break down my door and stab me with a knife. Oh and let's not forget the time he spit in my face and said, "there, I just gave you AIDS." Sure, let's treat addicts with kid gloves. After all they are just misunderstood. My brother died of a heroin overdose when he was 24, just seven months after my father died. My heart broke for my mother for having to suffer such grief. But not a day in my life in the 25 years since I planned his funeral have I grieved his death. He was a blight on my family, and each time he was arrested, he was released, each treatment program that we fought to get him into failed. He was a miserable son of a bitch and he did nothing but cause my parents pain his whole life. Me? I had him arrested when I knew he had drugs in the house, and I don't regret it a minute. Your suggestion puts every person in that addicts life in potential danger. I know because I've lived it. Tough love is EXACTLY how addicts need to be handled. Nothing else gets through I am sorry to hear of your brother's story and of the grief he caused you and your family. However there are dangers in generalising out of a single person's experience. Especially so as my personal experiences have been very different to yours. If I were to generalise out my personal experiences, the lessons learnt would be exactly the opposite of yours. With other friends, I have nursed 6 friends through withdrawals from opiate addictions in my home. Not once was there violence or angry confrontations, not once was there rancour, nothing ever went missing or was stolen. Some had a far more uncomfortable time than others but all responded well to a regime of love, emotional support, and buperenorphine supplemented by grass and Valium. With the widespread, though strictly controlled, availability (at least here in Australia) of buperenorphine, there is no need for heroin and opiate addicts to undergo withdrawals any more. Almost all the physical and mental withdrawals disappear when correct doses of buperenorphine are administered. Buperenorphine can be used on a short term basis for detox only, or on a longer term maintainence program to help ensure ongoing abstinence. Unfortunately buperenorphine is only useful in cases of opiate addictions. Buperenorphine consigns the days of 'cold turkey' to the past. Of the sample of 6 friends, 2 relapsed after various periods of time, the other 4 are still clean. All 6 are still friends and not one of them has ever expressed anything other than gratitude for the support we were able to offer them. Of those who have succeeded in staying clean, everyone involved identifies the quality and extent of emotional support - in short the amount of love - they receive from their support networks as the critical factor in their successes On a very small sample size, the more extensive and supportive the support system,the more loving the addict's environment during recovery, in conjunction with correct medical support, the better the chance of long term success. I don't suggest for a minute that this will be a universal outcome but there certainly is food for thought there.

truckinslave -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 4:13:50 AM)
Great to hear stories of recovery. But the glaring difference between the experiences you relate, and those related by LL is that you were dealing with people determined to quit, she with a person determined to use. Night and day.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 5:33:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML What is your baseline for knowledge of biology, Rich? 101, plus some additional readings later, dealing with the neurochemistry of just the matter we are discussing with here. I keep telling you, Mate isn't offering anything new. Geology was much more interesting though. See how easy it is to answer a question? Care to try the one you quoted, but still dodged? Then why did you make such an idiotic reply to the use of "physiology?" Are your emotions getting the best of you? So, Mate' isn't offering anything new? That's not what you said early in the thread when you called him an idiot. My addictions, obsessions, and compulsions are not any business of yours. I feel no need to make a public confession. Nor do I have to report credentials to offer opinions on these boards. That is for people who smugly think they are superior. When some posters have lame arguments they turn their attention to personal attacks. It is such a transparent tactic. That's why I won't answer your silly ass question. I don't need to pretend to be superior. That is a pathetic game played by the insecure.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 5:44:39 AM)
quote: But while he may not be the shining example of how those extended programs are the most successful, it is as you said, until the pain of those pleasures become too difficult to bear, sobriety isn't going to happen. All the support and handling with kid gloves in the world isn't going to do a thing until that happens. Yes, there are many failures. At least some effort was made to help your landlord. Often when help is given the addict can't overcome his pain. This poor fellow seems to illustrate that. Evidently, the choice to want help is not so simple.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 5:51:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave Great to hear stories of recovery. But the glaring difference between the experiences you relate, and those related by LL is that you were dealing with people determined to quit, she with a person determined to use. Night and day. Determined to use? Or unable to overcome the need? And perhaps more than addiction was involved. I won't speculate on so personal a matter as LL offered. As Tweak said: you can't generalize from any one case.

TheHeretic -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 6:15:41 AM)
So you've got a YouTube video, which is exactly what I've been saying since I first answered your question. Have another, and a lovely day. I'm going to work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GAEFTeWko eta Of course, the response you gave could also be something from an addict, who can never make it out, and has latched onto a not-ready-for-prime-time TED as the latest thing to lie to himself about. That would explain it, too. Gotta dash.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 8:55:08 AM)
A music video. Fuck, Rich, even for you a new low for inconsequential posting. [sm=rofl.gif]

truckinslave -> RE: ADDICTS (12/2/2013 9:01:06 AM)
quote: Determined to use? Or unable to overcome the need? The phrase "unable to overcome the need" assumes the desire to quit. Nothing LL related showed her brother having any desire to quit. You cannot assume that. You cannot bestow it upon him. On the other hand, everything she related demonstrated his determination to use

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