ADDICTS

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vincentML -> ADDICTS (11/27/2013 1:44:54 PM)
1. should just say “NO” 2. should just grow up already and take responsibility for their lives 3. are moral failures 4. should be jailed until they are withdrawn from their addiction 5. are victims of their genes 6. should pray for success in the War on Drugs 7. only have themselves to blame None of the above applies according to Dr. Gabor Mate’ who treated substance abusers for ten years in Vancouver’s lower east side and spent many years directing a hospice unit as well as engaging his private practice of family medicine. Addiction includes abuse of drugs: pain relievers, stimulants, sedatives, etc. as well as behaviors like compulsive gambling, sex, porn, internet, working, shopping, eating. To understand addiction, says Mate’, we need to understand and accept that drugs and compulsive behaviors are pain killers or sedatives and are used to soothe emotional pain, anxiety, emptiness, loss of attachment, etc. In other words we need to extend compassion to the addict. The war on drugs is a war on addicts, and a huge waste of money and resources. According to Mate’ the pain arises from Implicit memories, early childhood imprinting, emotional memories we cannot recall from the first two years of life when our brains were growing most rapidly and making long lasting neural connections. These hidden emotional memories shape faulty adult strategies that fail to resolve the conflict between our needs for attachment and authenticity. Free will? Not so much. The impact on society is immensely harmful. Mate’ gives an example from his own infancy. He was born in Budapest two months before the German occupation in 1944. Pretty quickly his mother phoned the pediatrician and asked her to come around because Gabor would not stop crying. The pediatrician responded that she would visit but ALL of her Jewish babies were crying. What did these infants know of war or Nazis? Nothing. But they sensed the stress of their mothers. As an adult Mate’ has been diagnosed a compulsive shopping behavior and ADHA. The video lasts about 20 minutes. TED TALK Please share your thoughts.

DomKen -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 3:10:34 PM)
I grew up with parents who were addicts. Having compassion for them is all that was told to me in Alanon every time they decided to get "clean." It is bullshit. Sure they had problems that may have led them to abuse but it is still something they could control and ultimately something they chose not to control until it killed them both. I don't know a solution but I know for a fact the route this guy advocates isn't it.

muhly22222 -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 6:26:56 PM)
FR Addiction is one hell of beast to have on your back. I work as an assistant prosecutor in a county that is afflicted with a heroin epidemic (and that's not an exaggeration...I'd say that 80+% of our crime is related to heroin), and no matter what we do, heroin addicts don't seem to be able to stay away. Leaving them sit in jail, sending them to a residential treatment center, shipping them to prison, intensive supervision by the probation officers...regardless which of those we choose, there's nearly a 100% recidivism rate among heroin-addicted defendants. I can't fathom what it takes to be able to escape that trap once you've stepped into it. I wish there was more we could do to help them (actually...there is, starting next year, but that's a different story), but ultimately, they have to make the decision to stay away from whatever they've become addicted to.

kalikshama -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 6:40:01 PM)
I have a friend who was a heroin addict for 28 years. After he came out of the coma from his last overdose, his girlfriend's friend started dragging him to yoga classes. He's been clean for 13 years, despite periods of homelessness and being offered drugs. When he tells stories about himself it's like he's describing two different people - the small time criminal junkie and the yogi he became. He inspired me to get my yoga teacher certification, and maybe one day I will teach yoga in prisons. I'm so proud of him.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 7:51:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I grew up with parents who were addicts. Having compassion for them is all that was told to me in Alanon every time they decided to get "clean." It is bullshit. Sure they had problems that may have led them to abuse but it is still something they could control and ultimately something they chose not to control until it killed them both. I don't know a solution but I know for a fact the route this guy advocates isn't it. I am terribly sorry about your parents, Ken. Must have been hellish for you. Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control. The abused chemicals and compulsive behaviors displace certain naturally occurring neurochemicals in the brain. Dopamine and endorphins for example as well as the frontal cortex which inhibits unacceptable behavior. The natural chemicals are depleted so when the abused chemicals are suddenly withheld the addicted mind is in a terrible state of withdrawal until the natural hormones are again generated. Maybe you know this already from the experience you had. I do hope you will give Mate's talk a good listen. There is much wisdom there.

TheHeretic -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 7:54:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML TED TALK Please share your thoughts. Specifically regarding the TED Talk, my thought was that the good Dr. is an idiot, despite what I'm sure are excellent professional credentials. A tweaker is not a junkie, a pothead is not an alcoholic, and a compulsive shopper is none of the above.

tweakabelle -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:04:12 PM)
Those friends of mine who have been through this wringer tell me that for every individual, that the road to recovery is personal and unique - there is no 'one size fits all' solution. Generally their stories confirm the OP's claim that addicts use their substance of choice to self medicate to "soothe emotional pain, anxiety, emptiness, loss of attachment, etc". They stress that recovery is a choice, a choice that addicts must want for themselves - they scoff at the notion of 'compulsory recovery'. Just as there are many roads into addiction, there are many roads out of addiction. Even the concept of addiction itself - as an incurable but manageable condition as per the AA/NA model - is questioned as newer approaches to the subject arise. Society can play an important supportive role here. It can, through applying harm minimization principles, keep the addict alive until they are ready to begin their recovery, and then continue to support that addict as they recover. Society can remove the illegality placed on certain substances to minimise the gap between addiction and everyday (non-criminal) life. In fact, changing the way we regard addiction - as a health issue not a legal/criminal issue - is probably the most important the and most effective single step we all can take towards developing more enlightened and effective strategies to deal with addictions. While the removing the punitive element won't solve the problem on its own, any strategy that excludes this element is practically guaranteed to fail, as we can see looking at the situation today. Prohibition has been an enormous failure universally, and an enormously expensive failure too.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:05:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 FR Addiction is one hell of beast to have on your back. I work as an assistant prosecutor in a county that is afflicted with a heroin epidemic (and that's not an exaggeration...I'd say that 80+% of our crime is related to heroin), and no matter what we do, heroin addicts don't seem to be able to stay away. Leaving them sit in jail, sending them to a residential treatment center, shipping them to prison, intensive supervision by the probation officers...regardless which of those we choose, there's nearly a 100% recidivism rate among heroin-addicted defendants. I can't fathom what it takes to be able to escape that trap once you've stepped into it. I wish there was more we could do to help them (actually...there is, starting next year, but that's a different story), but ultimately, they have to make the decision to stay away from whatever they've become addicted to. Dr Mate' makes the point that this is pretty much unlikely under current therapy methods. Too little too late as long as so much money is spent on drug interdiction, which is obviously failing, and not on patient assistance. He also makes the point that it is not the drugs or behaviors that are inherently addicting. Some people can use crystal meth and never become addicted. People can gamble or shop or eat foods and never become compulsively addicted to those behaviors. By the end of the Vietnam War 20% of returning American soldiers were addicted to heroin. Three years later only one percent remained addicted. No thanks to any therapy programs but due to the lifting of the stress of war. It is hard for me to shake the drumbeat of assertions that drugs are addictive but the evidence is there. Not everyone is addicted to cigarettes or caffeine. Patients who are administered morphine in hospital for pain seldom become addicted. Many, many people drink alcohol and do not become addicted. So, the question is why do some people become addicted and others do not? Dr Mate' suggests some reasonable possibilities.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:10:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama I have a friend who was a heroin addict for 28 years. After he came out of the coma from his last overdose, his girlfriend's friend started dragging him to yoga classes. He's been clean for 13 years, despite periods of homelessness and being offered drugs. When he tells stories about himself it's like he's describing two different people - the small time criminal junkie and the yogi he became. He inspired me to get my yoga teacher certification, and maybe one day I will teach yoga in prisons. I'm so proud of him. Tellingly, Gabor Mate' stresses the unity of mind and body, particularly the nervous system, endocrine system, immune system and heart-lung system which all interact and constantly exchange critical hormones. Mate' has revealed in other talks his turn to meditation and the search for inner peace, for quieting the mind talk that distracts so much from his own authenticity. Your teaching skills would possibly be very helpful, Kali.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:16:54 PM)
quote: Those friends of mine who have been through this wringer tell me that for every individual, that the road to recovery is personal and unique - there is no 'one size fits all' solution. Exactly. And society does not have the resources to treat individuals. Mate' does not advocate legalization because he abhors the notion of others, like tobacco firms, gaining profits from addictive people. He advocates controlled clinical distribution I think.

DomKen -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:36:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I grew up with parents who were addicts. Having compassion for them is all that was told to me in Alanon every time they decided to get "clean." It is bullshit. Sure they had problems that may have led them to abuse but it is still something they could control and ultimately something they chose not to control until it killed them both. I don't know a solution but I know for a fact the route this guy advocates isn't it. I am terribly sorry about your parents, Ken. Must have been hellish for you. Perhaps if you watched the video you might start to have some understanding that addiction is not a matter of Will or Control. The abused chemicals and compulsive behaviors displace certain naturally occurring neurochemicals in the brain. Dopamine and endorphins for example as well as the frontal cortex which inhibits unacceptable behavior. The natural chemicals are depleted so when the abused chemicals are suddenly withheld the addicted mind is in a terrible state of withdrawal until the natural hormones are again generated. Maybe you know this already from the experience you had. I do hope you will give Mate's talk a good listen. There is much wisdom there. I watched it when you posted it. The guy is FoS. I stay up to date on the research on addiction. The single most effective way to stay clean is to change the addicts environment. That means new friends, new sources of entertainment and relaxation along with serious work on breaking the habits of addiction. The brain chemical stuff resolves relatively early on, either in detox or within weeks thereafter. The reason most addicts relapse is they stay in the environment that they were in before they tried to get clean. Think about it, if you drink too much and got sober would you think it wise to keep hanging out with heavy drinkers? Would it be wise to hang out with people who talk about drinking a lot? Who attends AA meetings?

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML TED TALK Please share your thoughts. Specifically regarding the TED Talk, my thought was that the good Dr. is an idiot, despite what I'm sure are excellent professional credentials. A tweaker is not a junkie, a pothead is not an alcoholic, and a compulsive shopper is none of the above. An idiot? Why so? And not so much his credentials but his experience speak to his presumed competence. You might also consider that no other strategies have been effective. The tweaker, pothead, and compulsive shopper do not suffer the same extreme social stigma we place on substance abusers but their compulsions arise from weaknesses in the same neural systems as those of substance abusers: 1. the endorphins which promote attachment between people, 2. dopamine which gooses vitality and energizes active participation (like seeking a mate) 3. the frontal cortex which provides impulse control, and 4. failure of glucocorticoids which govern our reactions to stress. The difference between substance abuse and non-substance compulsions is not in their neurochemistry but in the way we react to them and the stories we tell about them in movies and TV shows. The lives of sex addicts, gamblers, and workaholics may be as crapped as the substance junkies. Just not so easy to dramatize maybe. Happy you took the time to watch the video.

vincentML -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 8:50:07 PM)
quote: I watched it when you posted it. The guy is FoS. I stay up to date on the research on addiction. The single most effective way to stay clean is to change the addicts environment. That means new friends, new sources of entertainment and relaxation along with serious work on breaking the habits of addiction. The brain chemical stuff resolves relatively early on, either in detox or within weeks thereafter. The reason most addicts relapse is they stay in the environment that they were in before they tried to get clean. Think about it, if you drink too much and got sober would you think it wise to keep hanging out with heavy drinkers? Would it be wise to hang out with people who talk about drinking a lot? Who attends AA meetings? Sorry I didn't emphasize it. The role of the external environment is crucial to building new neural connections. We have no disagreement there. Except we do disagree bout the internal environment that developed early on in life. Look, the child's brain is developed to 80% of the adult brain by age three or so. The environment in which that development occurs is critical and carried with him through his lifetime. Wherever he goes so goes his inner environment, his Implicit emotional memories. Not so easily escaped.

TheHeretic -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 9:00:22 PM)
Do you even know what a tweaker is, Vince? It's a common term for a methamphetamine addict. I suspect your knowledge of the subject matter really isn't up to snuff, here. While the clinical/chemical side of addiction and recovery is an interesting aspect of the whole field, it is only one component. There is no link for what I know of the wonderful world of addicts and addiction, or the joys of withdrawal, or the sweet contented serenity of perfect sobriety. [8\|]

EdBowie -> RE: ADDICTS (11/27/2013 10:10:38 PM)
FR It is simply a superstitious denial of science to claim that anyone makes the 'choice' to have, or not have opiate receptors, etc. in their physiological makeup. Nor do people make up their own minds about where tolerance levels lie. Other people may feel smug in the certainty that they are a superior breed to addicts, but they aren't. What people can influence, is their exposure to the addictive item, and how they handle the consequences that occur after that.

farglebargle -> RE: ADDICTS (11/28/2013 5:02:59 AM)
Same old, same old. When the temporary relief becomes your comfort-zone, shit gets all fucked up. Too bad the Trimpeys got run over by the AA/Industrial complex, but that's what happens when you piss in Big Addiction's cheerios.

TheHeretic -> RE: ADDICTS (11/28/2013 8:17:36 AM)
FR - A little food for thought, before we set out on the road to the family feast. Just as with the argument that people who commit monstrous crimes aren't really responsible for what they do, because mommy didn't hug them enough, the claim that addicts are simply the products of poor parenting or a stressful environment is an insult to those who come from nightmare backgrounds, yet go on to live decent, productive, and happy lives. No matter what form the addiction takes, be it a substance or a behavior, there is always an element of personal choice in the mix, both on the way in, and in finding the way out.

tj444 -> RE: ADDICTS (11/28/2013 8:24:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 to escape that trap once you've stepped into it. IMO.. the best thing parents, teachers, etc can do is teach kids to think independently and not succumb to pressure to try drugs (including cigs, booze, etc) in the first place (if that shite is so great then why the need to pressure someone into using it?).. I am not talking about the "just say no" stuff, but teach them to think first, evaluate the pros and cons of any situation or decision with a clear & honest head/mind and that will help them (imo) to decide on their own that the risk of addiction isn't worth "trying it" even once.. I cant say what is the best way to deal with addicts once they are addicted.. but I think that is up to them to have hit bottom and finally decided to quit for good, and they have to try different things to help them reach that goal.. as has been said, for some it might be taking up yoga or whatever release to control stress, for others it could be creating a new life with new friends, new home, new job, etc.. to find what works for each one, can be hit and miss, trial and error until they find what works for them.. jmo..

Zonie63 -> RE: ADDICTS (11/28/2013 10:24:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML 1. should just say “NO” 2. should just grow up already and take responsibility for their lives 3. are moral failures 4. should be jailed until they are withdrawn from their addiction 5. are victims of their genes 6. should pray for success in the War on Drugs 7. only have themselves to blame None of the above applies according to Dr. Gabor Mate’ who treated substance abusers for ten years in Vancouver’s lower east side and spent many years directing a hospice unit as well as engaging his private practice of family medicine. Addiction includes abuse of drugs: pain relievers, stimulants, sedatives, etc. as well as behaviors like compulsive gambling, sex, porn, internet, working, shopping, eating. To understand addiction, says Mate’, we need to understand and accept that drugs and compulsive behaviors are pain killers or sedatives and are used to soothe emotional pain, anxiety, emptiness, loss of attachment, etc. In other words we need to extend compassion to the addict. The war on drugs is a war on addicts, and a huge waste of money and resources. I tend to agree with that. I think addiction is just something that's part of the human condition. People have been using fermented beverages, herbs, and other concoctions to get a buzz for quite some time now, so it's just something that humans like to do. Some like it just a little too much, and that's where many of the problems come in. The war on drugs just makes it more expensive, thus more lucrative, thus more violent. It's turned out to be a dead end strategy for dealing with the problem. Some people advocate legalization, although some are dead set against legalization, so there seems to be a political impasse somewhat. So, just like a lot of other political problems lately, this is another that doesn't get solved. But I think there might be some room for compromise. Besides, I sometimes wonder if society isn't getting too puritanical and self-righteous about some of these things. There's a lot of shame and ridicule heaped upon addicts which might be an impediment to getting the help they might need. I don't think that society really cared as much about these things back in earlier eras. The advocates for temperance and Prohibition seemed to create this idea that it was society's responsibility to worry about what people put into their own bodies. But to try to outlaw these substances and take such a rigid, unyielding stance is counterproductive. Not everyone who drinks or does drugs is a menace to society, and it doesn't really have to be like that. Society's limited resources could be better concentrated on those few who are a menace to society and clearly do need help with their drug/drinking problem.

angelikaJ -> RE: ADDICTS (11/28/2013 1:23:20 PM)
FR There does not seem to be a universal answer that explains addiction. There are heroin addicts who claim that nicotine is the hardest substance for them to get off of, and there are casual smokers who can stop and start smoking at will. Suggesting that addiction is purely driven by will or purely by genes discounts the experiments with animals. Exposure to the addictive substance alters the neuro-chemistry and then changes the way the brain is wired. Methamphetamine changes dopamine receptors. Ecstasy/molly changes serotonin. Some people have issues with opioid addiction/dependency and some people don't. Are the people who don't automatically better people than those who do or will with repeated exposure? http://www.bnl.gov/newsroom/news.php?a=11160

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