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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/19/2013 10:09:29 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		And thereby by extension you seem to think that by legislating that everyone ought be paid $1,000,000 / hour that we would solve poverty forever.

So, lets take this great dimocratic pablum: that raising the minimum wage is good.
If its good - why is it that we stop at $10, or $15, or $25. Why don't we just raise it to a million.

Its for the same reason that we don't raise the income tax to 70%. Or do you forget that kennedy - a democrat - lowered the income tax....

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 361
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/19/2013 11:06:45 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Logical fallacy, reductio ad absurdum.

Therefore by extension you are deliberately lying about what I 'seem to think'. Strawman fallacy.

There is a significant difference in raising the minimum wage by a dollar something, and the number you made up. Fallacy of the excluded middle.

Do you have anything at all that isn't based on pure dishonesty and drinking the Koolaid of ignorance?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And thereby by extension you seem to think that by legislating that everyone ought be paid $1,000,000 / hour that we would solve poverty forever.

So, lets take this great dimocratic pablum: that raising the minimum wage is good.
If its good - why is it that we stop at $10, or $15, or $25. Why don't we just raise it to a million.

Its for the same reason that we don't raise the income tax to 70%. Or do you forget that kennedy - a democrat - lowered the income tax....




_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 362
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/19/2013 11:11:02 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Are churches the same as a charity service?


That's my point - they're not.

People say that they give to charity by giving to their church, but little of that money actually goes to charity. (Not that keeping your church open is a bad cause, it's just not charity.) And people say that churches will provide for the poor if we don't have a minimum wage or a public safety net, but that's not true either.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 363
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/19/2013 11:40:12 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

$35B in higher wages without $35B in greater productivity means....?

Greater inflation. Now, the guy down the street who didn't get a wage hike is less stable.

Perfect!



The greater productivity has already happened, a raise in wage would just be catching up to that.

According to the BLS, from 1947-2010, labor productivity in non-farm businessse rose by an average of 2.2% per year, compared with wages rising by an average of 1.7% per year. Until '79, wages almost kept pace with productivity, but since then, the wage growth has dropped off significantly. Manufacturing is even worse - during that same period, productivity rose by an average of 2.9% per year, while wages, after the late 70s, haven't risen at all.

Source: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/01/art3full.pdf

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 364
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/19/2013 11:42:06 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Just follow Frank Zappa's suggestion, and give mightily to the Church of American Secular Humanity...



quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Are churches the same as a charity service?


That's my point - they're not.

People say that they give to charity by giving to their church, but little of that money actually goes to charity. (Not that keeping your church open is a bad cause, it's just not charity.) And people say that churches will provide for the poor if we don't have a minimum wage or a public safety net, but that's not true either.



_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 365
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 12:37:33 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Logical fallacy, reductio ad absurdum.

Therefore by extension you are deliberately lying about what I 'seem to think'. Strawman fallacy.

There is a significant difference in raising the minimum wage by a dollar something, and the number you made up. Fallacy of the excluded middle.

Do you have anything at all that isn't based on pure dishonesty and drinking the Koolaid of ignorance?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And thereby by extension you seem to think that by legislating that everyone ought be paid $1,000,000 / hour that we would solve poverty forever.

So, lets take this great dimocratic pablum: that raising the minimum wage is good.
If its good - why is it that we stop at $10, or $15, or $25. Why don't we just raise it to a million.

Its for the same reason that we don't raise the income tax to 70%. Or do you forget that kennedy - a democrat - lowered the income tax....





You missed my point, Scarecrow!

Since you (obviously) can't raise the minimum wage to a million there must be something that constrains that.
What do you think that might be?

But I don't expect to get any kind of real answer. Not here where cows fart gold and all the problems of the world can be solved if we only wish real real hard.

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 366
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 1:05:41 AM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		I already gave the constraints in dollars and cents. Thanks for once again being disingenuous... and for wrapping it in childish insults.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Logical fallacy, reductio ad absurdum.

Therefore by extension you are deliberately lying about what I 'seem to think'. Strawman fallacy.

There is a significant difference in raising the minimum wage by a dollar something, and the number you made up. Fallacy of the excluded middle.

Do you have anything at all that isn't based on pure dishonesty and drinking the Koolaid of ignorance?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And thereby by extension you seem to think that by legislating that everyone ought be paid $1,000,000 / hour that we would solve poverty forever.

So, lets take this great dimocratic pablum: that raising the minimum wage is good.
If its good - why is it that we stop at $10, or $15, or $25. Why don't we just raise it to a million.

Its for the same reason that we don't raise the income tax to 70%. Or do you forget that kennedy - a democrat - lowered the income tax....





You missed my point, Scarecrow!

Since you (obviously) can't raise the minimum wage to a million there must be something that constrains that.
What do you think that might be?

But I don't expect to get any kind of real answer. Not here where cows fart gold and all the problems of the world can be solved if we only wish real real hard.




_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 367
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 4:53:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Why would more people with the ability to spend on the basics cause the prices to go up to where they can't afford them again?
You seem thoroughly invested in this notion that people in business try as hard as they can to produce losses.


Is there a glut of supply now? Magically raising the amount of money available to be used in the economy overnight will not magically make the supply of what that money will buy appear overnight. As demand rises, so will prices, unless supply keeps up. Isn't it a good idea for business to let prices rise to cover their increased costs (meaning they don't increase supply)?

More money chasing the same amount of goods (which is what it will be initially) means the prices for those goods will rise. They will rise, not only for those who just got a pay raise, but also for those who didn't. Now, you have someone who's income didn't rise lose purchasing power. And, it's likely that whatever rise in the minimum wage won't be realized equally in the real purchase power for those getting a raise.

Look at the demographics of those who are currently getting paid minimum (or lower) wage.

Here's a great question: Of the people who get paid less than minimum wage, but also earn tips, what is their typical hourly wages when tips are included in that calculation?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 368
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 5:04:06 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
$35B in higher wages without $35B in greater productivity means....?
Greater inflation. Now, the guy down the street who didn't get a wage hike is less stable.
Perfect!

The greater productivity has already happened, a raise in wage would just be catching up to that.
According to the BLS, from 1947-2010, labor productivity in non-farm businessse rose by an average of 2.2% per year, compared with wages rising by an average of 1.7% per year. Until '79, wages almost kept pace with productivity, but since then, the wage growth has dropped off significantly. Manufacturing is even worse - during that same period, productivity rose by an average of 2.9% per year, while wages, after the late 70s, haven't risen at all.
Source: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/01/art3full.pdf


My use of the wrong word. Should have been: "$35B in higher wages without $35B in greater production...."

Even taking higher productivity into account, what's driven that productivity? Is it the employees? Are the employees the cause of the higher productivity? Or, has it been capital improvements, including more/better technology and/or machinery? An improved process can make one guy more productive, even though that guy isn't any different than before. So, not only does the employer get to shell out money to improve the businesses hardware, the employer gets to pay the employee more for the employee's greater productivity due to the capital investment?!?

If the higher productivity isn't because of an increase in an employee's skill, where is the rationale for paying more?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 369
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 5:35:31 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
More money chasing the same amount of goods (which is what it will be initially) means the prices for those goods will rise. They will rise, not only for those who just got a pay raise, but also for those who didn't.

Interesting take Desi.
If that were the case, can you explain that since the technical revolution, anything and everything that has some technology in it has actually decreased (relatively) in consumer price compared to it's previous incarnation - despite the costs of development?

That would include all kitchen gadgets, computers, entertainment stuff, cars etc.
Just as an example, when I built this PC in 2001, it cost me around £1100 (~$1800).
Today, I could build the same shit for less than $200.
If I built something of equivalent power/advancement to other PC's on the market place, it'd cost me about $800~ish.
No matter how you crunch the numbers, it is way cheaper to buy the equivalent stuff (relatively) than it used to - even when money was more available pre-recession.

I don't believe prices will or do rise, just because there is more money available to more people for a lot of things.
And, if people have more money to spend, it helps the general economy.

The computer is but one of numerous things that are way cheaper these days.
Take the PC - a huge hulking lump that cost more than a year's wages to buy. These days people can afford to buy one with less than a week's wages.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 370
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 6:06:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
More money chasing the same amount of goods (which is what it will be initially) means the prices for those goods will rise. They will rise, not only for those who just got a pay raise, but also for those who didn't.

Interesting take Desi.
If that were the case, can you explain that since the technical revolution, anything and everything that has some technology in it has actually decreased (relatively) in consumer price compared to it's previous incarnation - despite the costs of development?
That would include all kitchen gadgets, computers, entertainment stuff, cars etc.
Just as an example, when I built this PC in 2001, it cost me around £1100 (~$1800).
Today, I could build the same shit for less than $200.
If I built something of equivalent power/advancement to other PC's on the market place, it'd cost me about $800~ish.
No matter how you crunch the numbers, it is way cheaper to buy the equivalent stuff (relatively) than it used to - even when money was more available pre-recession.
I don't believe prices will or do rise, just because there is more money available to more people for a lot of things.
And, if people have more money to spend, it helps the general economy.
The computer is but one of numerous things that are way cheaper these days.
Take the PC - a huge hulking lump that cost more than a year's wages to buy. These days people can afford to buy one with less than a week's wages.


Making an overhaul of your system (like buying a new machine that can do more than the one it is replacing) is a capital expense that has to be expended by the company. If that new machine is what is causing the higher productivity, what basis does the employee have for demanding higher wages, when his input hasn't changed at all?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 371
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 6:25:56 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Making an overhaul of your system (like buying a new machine that can do more than the one it is replacing) is a capital expense that has to be expended by the company. If that new machine is what is causing the higher productivity, what basis does the employee have for demanding higher wages, when his input hasn't changed at all?

And that capital expense is usually only justified because of the incresed returns that would pay for itself and even more profit.
And, more complex machinery often requires a slightly higher/different skill level and/or intelligence to run it or maintain it.

Lets take a simple case of a chicken production line in a food factory I once worked in.
The hooks on the conveyor belt started with only 2 hooks and small 300litre metal bins for the unhooked chikens to dump into.
They upgraded the production line for better productivity and it cost the company a small mortgage.
They shut down for a week and had it all changed.
When we came back to work, the converyor belt had two tiers of 3 hooks each and ran at a much faster pace.
The bins were changed for 500litre ones and therefore much heavier to move and wheel around.
Before, we usually did 2 bins an hour for our minimum wage.
With the new system, we were told to do 5 bins an hour for the same wages.
Why should we put up with that???
Our input, per se, hadn't changed at all - we just unhooked chickens from the belt.
The same is for many other 'upgrades' in many other situations.
Very rarely is there no actual difference in output from the same workers.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 372
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 10:50:44 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Is there a glut of supply now?

Yes. Haven't you heard that the reason the economy is so moribund is there is a lack of demand?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 373
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 6:02:13 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Making an overhaul of your system (like buying a new machine that can do more than the one it is replacing) is a capital expense that has to be expended by the company. If that new machine is what is causing the higher productivity, what basis does the employee have for demanding higher wages, when his input hasn't changed at all?

And that capital expense is usually only justified because of the incresed returns that would pay for itself and even more profit.
And, more complex machinery often requires a slightly higher/different skill level and/or intelligence to run it or maintain it.


In the case where a higher level of skill is required, pay should definitely reflect that. I have no problems with that. None at all. But, if there is not an increase in the skill level of the employee, what's the basis for an increase in wages?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 374
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 6:09:25 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Is there a glut of supply now?

Yes. Haven't you heard that the reason the economy is so moribund is there is a lack of demand?


Lack of demand is why the economy sucks? Says who?

The only way there could be a "lack of demand" is if demand before was correct. If this is the true level of demand, then what, Ken? You have made an assumption that may or may not be accurate. Remember, we were in a bubble economy.

Even if there is a glut of supply, and that demand isn't high enough, where is this lack of demand? Is the demand lacking in precisely where these minimum wage earners are going to spend their increased wages?

Is there a lack of demand in groceries? Is there a lack of demand in the basic staples of life? I'm going to go out on a limb and say there isn't any lack of demand there.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 375
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 6:29:25 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Is there a lack of demand in groceries? Is there a lack of demand in the basic staples of life? I'm going to go out on a limb and say there isn't any lack of demand there.


In tighter economic times, though, the demand for inferior goods increases.

quote:


Definition of 'Inferior Good'

A type of good for which demand declines as the level of income or real GDP in the economy increases. This occurs when a good has more costly substitutes that see an increase in demand as the society's economy improves. An inferior good is the opposite of a normal good, which experiences an increase in demand along with increases in the income level.

Inferior goods can be viewed as anything a consumer would demand less of if they had a higher level of real income. An example of an inferior good is public transportation. When consumers have less wealth, they may forgo using their own forms of private transportation in order to cut down costs (car insurance, gas and other car upkeep costs) and instead opt to use a less expensive form of transportation (bus pass).

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 376
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 6:53:55 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		Everyone should earn 12 kabillion kajillion an hour.

If everyone earned 12 kabillion kajillion an hour, I could sell my rentals for a profit.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 377
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 8:32:32 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Is there a glut of supply now?

Yes. Haven't you heard that the reason the economy is so moribund is there is a lack of demand?


Lack of demand is why the economy sucks? Says who?

The world bank
http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/2013/10/18372136/demand-collapse-or-credit-crunch-firms-evidence-world-banks-financial-crisis-survey-eastern-Europe

The Guardian editorial board
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/09/observer-editorial-economic-recovery

The NBER
http://www.nber.org/digest/dec10/w16174.html

And of course thousands more if you take a look at google.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 378
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/20/2013 11:57:59 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		There is no question that there is a glut of supply on the market.

Its also why the massive stimulus money is having very little stimulus.

Prices and wages are not going up in the developed world because we are competing with china, vietnam, brasil etc.
Capitol improvements such as faster machinery can be duplicated overseas, leaving the differentiator to be labor rates.

Since the current trade rules prevent tariffs etc developed countries are competing against the undeveloped countries labor rates.

Since products can be made anywhere and shipped anywhere, domestic businesses are not able to raise prices, and hence cannot raise wages.


In this kind of environment, we are in a race to the bottom, via stimulus. The countries that blink first destroy their economies first (but by no means last). Greece, spain, iceland, ireland were the first victims of same.

So the governments there will put plants (like spains steel mills) out of business. And when then aggregate demand worldwide meets the aggregate need - things will stabilize.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 379
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/21/2013 3:37:40 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Is there a glut of supply now?

Yes. Haven't you heard that the reason the economy is so moribund is there is a lack of demand?

Lack of demand is why the economy sucks? Says who?

The world bank
http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/2013/10/18372136/demand-collapse-or-credit-crunch-firms-evidence-world-banks-financial-crisis-survey-eastern-Europe
The Guardian editorial board
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/09/observer-editorial-economic-recovery
The NBER
http://www.nber.org/digest/dec10/w16174.html
And of course thousands more if you take a look at google.


It's nothing against them, but I don't care that demand in Britain or Eastern Europe is low. I don't care if it's high, either.

The NBER is looking at conditions pre-Recession and comparing them to during the Recession. That makes the assumption that pre-Recession levels (you know, during the bubble) were correct.

That a Country relies so much on US continued consumption is a concern for the Citizens of that country, or it's businesses, not us. Our reduced demand could be exactly where our demand should be. It almost seems as if you're talking about increasing demand to take care of other countries economies, too. And, I'm willing to bet you're all for increasing domestic production through raising the cost of imports, which will reduce demand for those same countries' exports.

Which is it, Ken? Should US demand for imports be higher to help the rest of the world out, or should we raise the cost of imports (reducing demand for imports) to bring production back to the US? You can't have both.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 380
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