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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:00:00 AM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		The reason people pick on Walmart is probably because they are everywhere. We don't have a target where I live and I have never heard of Meier.
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace

Well for what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of raising minimum wages and enacting living wages. Because we're all valuable human beings and we should probably start acting like it.

Frankly, workers need food clothing, and heat and people should be able to have things like that.

The 6 members of the Walton family (as in Wal-Mart) have more wealth than the poorest 42% of Americans combined.

Yeah. Read that again.

There's a difference between making a living and making a killing. And the Waltons are making a killing at the expense of their own workers.


Meier, Target and K-mart pay the same lousy wages as walmart so why doesn't anyone care about those workers. Now I can understand that a lot of people out there really hate the Waltons because they make so much money, but do you honestly think the heads of the three I mentioned are poor. Why doesn't anyone seem to care if the others are struggling to make ends meet. And if they do raise minimum wage what do you think will happen to prices. People still won't be able to make ends meet on what they make because things will cost more.


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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:12:32 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

The minimum wage, whatever it may be, is mostly just stupid symbolism. The bottom of the ladder is still going to be the bottom of the ladder.


Sure. So why not make the ladder start at "you can live on this if you work full-time"?

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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:20:06 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why is the number of middle-class jobs shrinking? Please do look beyond the first level, too.


Weakening unions, outsourcing, corporations driving wages lower and lower and getting away with it because they own the government.

A friend of mine makes $50k as a department manager in a unionized grocery store. Do you think Walmart pays anyone but the store manager that much? I doubt it.

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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:32:01 AM   
EdBowie


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Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		And because a large and affluent middle class is an anomaly that works against the way power flows to the elite at the top.


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why is the number of middle-class jobs shrinking? Please do look beyond the first level, too.


Weakening unions, outsourcing, corporations driving wages lower and lower and getting away with it because they own the government.

A friend of mine makes $50k as a department manager in a unionized grocery store. Do you think Walmart pays anyone but the store manager that much? I doubt it.


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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:38:54 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

The minimum wage, whatever it may be, is mostly just stupid symbolism. The bottom of the ladder is still going to be the bottom of the ladder.


Sure. So why not make the ladder start at "you can live on this if you work full-time"?



For one thing, it takes the bottom of the ladder out of reach for many people. For another minimum wage isn't intended to be a stopping place.

"You can live on this," is a pretty vague measure. WHO can live on it? A teenager still living with the parents? A family of 5? A family of 5 where one of the kids has special needs?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:42:16 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
People work for less because they need the money. Sometimes its settle for 7.50 or starve. But trust me, if some employers could legally pay a dollar a day (or less) they would. There is no reason to allow an employer to take advantage of employees just because they are hungry.


Thank you. If your choice is to sleep on someone's couch and eat ramen or to be on the streets and starve, people will choose option #1. But that doesn't make it right. Some employers will only pay anyone $7.25 because they're forced to - they would prefer to pay much less, and could get away with it by exploiting desperate people.

This is why we have such lax enforcement of illegal immigration - because this kind of employer likes it that they can pay their farm hands or dishwashers $5/hour and have them work 80 hour weeks with no overtime pay. And because those workers are not legal residents, they have no recourse.

Hell, look at all all these white-collar employers that require people to work full-time for free as interns to "get experience" before they'll hire them. (Which is something that keeps a lot of people out of those kind of jobs, because they can't afford to do that.)

quote:

Historical example? The sharecropping racket. A man worked hard all year long and at the end of the year he owed the employer money.....and it was legal. Completely immoral but legal.)


That's historical in the US, but still goes on in many countries. For example, from what I've read, pretty much all non-fair trade bananas are grown by people in that situation.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 11:47:20 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In the case of our friend, Ken, my best guess is that the trees he was selling were stolen.

You work with what you've got, but it requires an attitude of seeking solutions in life, rather than defaulting to the welfare state to care for your needs.


Ah, so your solution to not getting paid a living wage is to resort to a life of crime, and you think that's better than a decent minimum wage. Gotcha.

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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 12:03:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In the case of our friend, Ken, my best guess is that the trees he was selling were stolen.

You work with what you've got, but it requires an attitude of seeking solutions in life, rather than defaulting to the welfare state to care for your needs.


Ah, so your solution to not getting paid a living wage is to resort to a life of crime, and you think that's better than a decent minimum wage. Gotcha.



We've already established elsewhere that your knowledge of the lifestyles of the poor is purely a theoretical kind of thing, Graceadieu.

When you restrict the legitimate economy, say by requiring wages out of line with the work performed, you force people into the underground economy. Just a reality.

(And I'd say he is more moonlighting in crime, than living a life of it. That assumes my guess is right about him picking up the load from a poorly guarded stack. Lots of small loads of trees make their way down here at this time of year - he may have gotten a deal on them.)


_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 12:15:20 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


(Historical example? The sharecropping racket. A man worked hard all year long and at the end of the year he owed the employer money.....and it was legal. Completely immoral but legal.)




What do you mean historical? Look into the strawberry industry. It goes on today.

_____________________________

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 1:23:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

When you restrict the legitimate economy, say by requiring wages out of line with the work performed, you force people into the underground economy. Just a reality.



How does that work, TH? On the face of it it doesn't make sense. You're not saying that people will choose an underground occupation rather than a legal one if that legal one has a minimum wage, are you? Why would they do that?


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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 1:30:11 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In the case of our friend, Ken, my best guess is that the trees he was selling were stolen.

You work with what you've got, but it requires an attitude of seeking solutions in life, rather than defaulting to the welfare state to care for your needs.


Ah, so your solution to not getting paid a living wage is to resort to a life of crime, and you think that's better than a decent minimum wage. Gotcha.


Hence the 'enlightened self interest' behind so many welfare measures here. After mental wrestling, over many centuries, the wealthiest in the UK finally realised that people won't just quietly starve, they'll thieve before they'll do that.


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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 1:51:16 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace
Well said, MsMJAY, EdBowie and hmm1233.
And DesideriScuri - by your faulty logic, the handful of Waltons work harder than 42% of America. But I very much doubt that they work harder than the average American.


I wonder what Sam Walton's life was like when he started WalMart. Probably gravy and silver spoons the whole way, right? That his kids are better off for his sacrifices isn't surprising to me, nor should it be that way for anyone. The kids may not be working as hard as Sam did, but that's one of the things parents do for their kids. My Dad had a better life than his Dad, much of it due to the work his Dad did. I was better off than my Dad, mostly due to the choices my Dad made in his life. People at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale may have been born into it, making it not their fault they were born where they were, but it does mean that that kid's parents didn't make the sacrifices to improve the kid's life more.

quote:

Get your head out of your ass. People are starving to death and you're falling all over yourself to worship at the feet of your corporate masters.
We'd all do a lot better to stand up straight and demand a fair wage for a day of hard work.


My head isn't in my ass. Who is "starving to death in America? Show me the numbers.

I have no problem with someone standing up and demanding a fair wage for a day's work. I agree with that. But, who gets to define "fair" and what constitutes a day's work? Does an hour of flipping burgers count as much as an hour of accounting?

As The Heretic mentions, anyone who feels they aren't getting paid what their labor is worth has the opportunity to make a go of it for him/herself, too.

Take the risks. Invest the time and money to build something and then you'll get the opportunity to make all these little monetary calls you are demanding government make.

I won't hold my breath.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 1:59:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why is the number of middle-class jobs shrinking? Please do look beyond the first level, too.

Weakening unions,


Why are Unions weakening?

quote:

outsourcing,


Why is outsourcing profitable for a business?

quote:

corporations driving wages lower and lower and getting away with it because they own the government.


How do you fix that? Business couldn't own government if government wasn't for sale. I'm all for getting rid of corruption within government and working towards making government no longer for sale.

quote:

A friend of mine makes $50k as a department manager in a unionized grocery store. Do you think Walmart pays anyone but the store manager that much? I doubt it.


It doesn't matter if one, two, or four hundred people make $50k/year at WalMart. How much economic benefit is an employee bringing to the employer, compared to the employee's wages and benefits paid by the employer? Apparently, a manager is worth more to the company than that person in the low-wage positions.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 2:02:40 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

When you restrict the legitimate economy, say by requiring wages out of line with the work performed, you force people into the underground economy. Just a reality.



How does that work, TH? On the face of it it doesn't make sense. You're not saying that people will choose an underground occupation rather than a legal one if that legal one has a minimum wage, are you? Why would they do that?




No, Peon, I'm not.

Say I want somebody else to rake up the dogshit in my yard. Let's say it is worth $10 bucks a week to me, to have that done, and I contract with someone to do it. All nice and legal.

Now, the regulators come along and tell the guy I contract with, that he has to pay double the wage to his employees. The price increase shows up in my bill, and I decide that for $20 a week, I'll rake it up myself. So the dogshit raker dude, who was earning a minimum wage that was considered too low, now has no job at all.

The thing is, there is still a market for dogshit to be raked at $10 a week. A clever dogshit raker is going to be taking his business off the books.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 2:03:03 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Why is outsourcing profitable for a business?  
 
I do hope that this is a rhetorical question and that you'll cut to the chase. 

_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 2:58:17 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace

Well for what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of raising minimum wages and enacting living wages. Because we're all valuable human beings and we should probably start acting like it.

Frankly, workers need food clothing, and heat and people should be able to have things like that.

The 6 members of the Walton family (as in Wal-Mart) have more wealth than the poorest 42% of Americans combined.

Yeah. Read that again.

There's a difference between making a living and making a killing. And the Waltons are making a killing at the expense of their own workers.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/08/if-walmart-jobs-are-so-terrible-then-why-do-so-many-people-want-one/

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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 3:01:58 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace

Well for what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of raising minimum wages and enacting living wages. Because we're all valuable human beings and we should probably start acting like it.

Frankly, workers need food clothing, and heat and people should be able to have things like that.

The 6 members of the Walton family (as in Wal-Mart) have more wealth than the poorest 42% of Americans combined.

Yeah. Read that again.

There's a difference between making a living and making a killing. And the Waltons are making a killing at the expense of their own workers.


Meier, Target and K-mart pay the same lousy wages as walmart so why doesn't anyone care about those workers. Now I can understand that a lot of people out there really hate the Waltons because they make so much money, but do you honestly think the heads of the three I mentioned are poor. Why doesn't anyone seem to care if the others are struggling to make ends meet. And if they do raise minimum wage what do you think will happen to prices. People still won't be able to make ends meet on what they make because things will cost more.

I'm having trouble finding the hundreds of violations of labor law that Target or Meier or K-Mart have been convicted of. Wal-Mart OTOH:
https://www.google.com/#q=walmart+labor+law+violations

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RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 3:03:36 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where is the average person unable to find better than minimum wage employment going to find the capital to open a business?


By eating less, getting a roommate, quitting smoking, driving less, working weekends at a different job for 3 years until they save enough to start a business....

(Like every single person in history who started a business before them).

Why....amazingly enough....here's a woman who, on only her husbands meager 25 grand a year salary, raised 3 - 5 kids, bought a home (paid it off in 7 years), and actually became nationally known for....wait for it.....here it comes....spending LESS than she took in!!!!!

http://dandilyonfluff.com/2011/05/the-dacyczyn-decision-interview-with-americas-favorite-tightwad-amy-dacyczyn/

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 3:05:19 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where is the average person unable to find better than minimum wage employment going to find the capital to open a business?



In the case of our friend, Ken, my best guess is that the trees he was selling were stolen.

You work with what you've got, but it requires an attitude of seeking solutions in life, rather than defaulting to the welfare state to care for your needs.

I would have zero expectation that someone such as yourself would be able to grasp the concept.


Ayepper.

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Minimum wage in america - 12/8/2013 3:06:37 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where is the average person unable to find better than minimum wage employment going to find the capital to open a business?


By eating less, getting a roommate, quitting smoking, driving less, working weekends at a different job for 3 years until they save enough to start a business....

(Like every single person in history who started a business before them).

Why....amazingly enough....here's a woman who, on only her husbands meager 25 grand a year salary, raised 3 - 5 kids, bought a home (paid it off in 7 years), and actually became nationally known for....wait for it.....here it comes....spending LESS than she took in!!!!!

http://dandilyonfluff.com/2011/05/the-dacyczyn-decision-interview-with-americas-favorite-tightwad-amy-dacyczyn/

25k is almost double minimum wage. (25,000/2000 hours = $12.50, minimum wage is $7.25).

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 140
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