RE: Minimum wage in america

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LookieNoNookie -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 3:06:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace Well said, MsMJAY, EdBowie and hmm1233. And DesideriScuri - by your faulty logic, the handful of Waltons work harder than 42% of America. But I very much doubt that they work harder than the average American. Get your head out of your ass. People are starving to death and you're falling all over yourself to worship at the feet of your corporate masters. We'd all do a lot better to stand up straight and demand a fair wage for a day of hard work. They worked harder than the 42% 45 years ago, and, as I recall, risked their entire family fortune (actually, Sam did). Today they get to buy Picasso's with cash. (It's the way it works).

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 3:12:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace Well said, MsMJAY, EdBowie and hmm1233. And DesideriScuri - by your faulty logic, the handful of Waltons work harder than 42% of America. But I very much doubt that they work harder than the average American. I wonder what Sam Walton's life was like when he started WalMart. Probably gravy and silver spoons the whole way, right? That his kids are better off for his sacrifices isn't surprising to me, nor should it be that way for anyone. The kids may not be working as hard as Sam did, but that's one of the things parents do for their kids. My Dad had a better life than his Dad, much of it due to the work his Dad did. I was better off than my Dad, mostly due to the choices my Dad made in his life. People at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale may have been born into it, making it not their fault they were born where they were, but it does mean that that kid's parents didn't make the sacrifices to improve the kid's life more. quote: Get your head out of your ass. People are starving to death and you're falling all over yourself to worship at the feet of your corporate masters. We'd all do a lot better to stand up straight and demand a fair wage for a day of hard work. My head isn't in my ass. Who is "starving to death in America? Show me the numbers. I have no problem with someone standing up and demanding a fair wage for a day's work. I agree with that. But, who gets to define "fair" and what constitutes a day's work? Does an hour of flipping burgers count as much as an hour of accounting? As The Heretic mentions, anyone who feels they aren't getting paid what their labor is worth has the opportunity to make a go of it for him/herself, too. Take the risks. Invest the time and money to build something and then you'll get the opportunity to make all these little monetary calls you are demanding government make. I won't hold my breath. A lot of people don't know this about Sam Walton but, he was actually born a billionaire, has never flown anything but first class every time and all of his clothing was actually woven gold and silver spinning's and all his books were read to him until age 40 by virgins flown in from Irkutsk. (Don't even try to explain to these morons what running a business is about or how often the owner (typically) makes about 1/10th what his mid level employees make, or that he's mortgaged his home 5 times to make payroll....they'll never believe you anyway).

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 3:15:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen And where is the average person unable to find better than minimum wage employment going to find the capital to open a business? By eating less, getting a roommate, quitting smoking, driving less, working weekends at a different job for 3 years until they save enough to start a business.... (Like every single person in history who started a business before them). Why....amazingly enough....here's a woman who, on only her husbands meager 25 grand a year salary, raised 3 - 5 kids, bought a home (paid it off in 7 years), and actually became nationally known for....wait for it.....here it comes....spending LESS than she took in!!!!! http://dandilyonfluff.com/2011/05/the-dacyczyn-decision-interview-with-americas-favorite-tightwad-amy-dacyczyn/ 25k is almost double minimum wage. (25,000/2000 hours = $12.50, minimum wage is $7.25). Possibly you missed the singularly key components of the discussion.....3 - 5 kids, house paid for in 7 years....her not working....etc.

chastityDom1 -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 4:15:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Take the risks. Invest the time and money to build something and then you'll get the opportunity I am not sure that all these people on or near minimum wage have shit loads of time and money to invest. Almost by definition they don't. I suspect most of them are working far too hard at minimum wage just to keep themselves and/or their family housed and fed to have loads of spare time on their hands. I also suspect that if they are minimum wage they are probably not the kind of people that banks, in a recession are going to go out of their way to lend money too. Great when it works but basically it is a naïve fantasy

hmm1233 -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 4:36:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie (Don't even try to explain to these morons what running a business is about or how often the owner (typically) makes about 1/10th what his mid level employees make, or that he's mortgaged his home 5 times to make payroll....they'll never believe you anyway). Corporations like Walmart make things a lot harder on the struggling small businessman as well. It's not that reasonable people don't think a person should benefit from their hard work, good ideas and risks taken in the past. Rather, reasonable people think that people should be able to do it now, too. This delusion that what was possible or has been achieved in the past is now possible with the same effort and good ideas is entirely wrong. Further, despite the fact a small businessman might aspire to be, and identify with a large corporation like Walmart, he is deluding himself. His odds are only a little better than my winning the lottery. You might have to up what you charge to pay your employees, but that's not taking away and competitive advantage you might have - Walmart does too. Edit: "I may or may not have worked hard, had great ideas, and taken a lot of risks, so now that I'm at the top, I should be able to exploit America for every dime it's worth" Is just lame. For that matter, any good idea I had as a peon at my last job was not my own. It didn't get me better pay, it didn't get me recognition... No, they just got patented and stolen. Nor did my hard work help me any. Some fatass manager above me that did nothing but sit on his fat ass tended to get the recognition.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 5:05:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hmm1233 quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie (Don't even try to explain to these morons what running a business is about or how often the owner (typically) makes about 1/10th what his mid level employees make, or that he's mortgaged his home 5 times to make payroll....they'll never believe you anyway). Corporations like Walmart make things a lot harder on the struggling small businessman as well. It's not that reasonable people don't think a person should benefit from their hard work, good ideas and risks taken in the past. Rather, reasonable people think that people should be able to do it now, too. This delusion that what was possible or has been achieved in the past is now possible with the same effort and good ideas is entirely wrong. Further, despite the fact a small businessman might aspire to be, and identify with a large corporation like Walmart, he is deluding himself. His odds are only a little better than my winning the lottery. You might have to up what you charge to pay your employees, but that's not taking away and competitive advantage you might have - Walmart does too. Edit: "I may or may not have worked hard, had great ideas, and taken a lot of risks, so now that I'm at the top, I should be able to exploit America for every dime it's worth" Is just lame. For that matter, any good idea I had as a peon at my last job was not my own. It didn't get me better pay, it didn't get me recognition... No, they just got patented and stolen. Nor did my hard work help me any. Some fatass manager above me that did nothing but sit on his fat ass tended to get the recognition. Whether you think you can, or you think you can't. You're correct.

hmm1233 -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 5:35:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: hmm1233 quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie (Don't even try to explain to these morons what running a business is about or how often the owner (typically) makes about 1/10th what his mid level employees make, or that he's mortgaged his home 5 times to make payroll....they'll never believe you anyway). Corporations like Walmart make things a lot harder on the struggling small businessman as well. It's not that reasonable people don't think a person should benefit from their hard work, good ideas and risks taken in the past. Rather, reasonable people think that people should be able to do it now, too. This delusion that what was possible or has been achieved in the past is now possible with the same effort and good ideas is entirely wrong. Further, despite the fact a small businessman might aspire to be, and identify with a large corporation like Walmart, he is deluding himself. His odds are only a little better than my winning the lottery. You might have to up what you charge to pay your employees, but that's not taking away and competitive advantage you might have - Walmart does too. Edit: "I may or may not have worked hard, had great ideas, and taken a lot of risks, so now that I'm at the top, I should be able to exploit America for every dime it's worth" Is just lame. For that matter, any good idea I had as a peon at my last job was not my own. It didn't get me better pay, it didn't get me recognition... No, they just got patented and stolen. Nor did my hard work help me any. Some fatass manager above me that did nothing but sit on his fat ass tended to get the recognition. Whether you think you can, or you think you can't. You're correct. I couldn't even get a loan to buy a house with a near perfect credit score and 30% down. Even if I could get the money together, which I can't, a lot of people think they can and fail utterly. (The statistics on just how many fail differ greatly, but it's at least 50% in the first few years. Nevermind actually doing well.)

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 5:58:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hmm1233 quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: hmm1233 quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie (Don't even try to explain to these morons what running a business is about or how often the owner (typically) makes about 1/10th what his mid level employees make, or that he's mortgaged his home 5 times to make payroll....they'll never believe you anyway). Corporations like Walmart make things a lot harder on the struggling small businessman as well. It's not that reasonable people don't think a person should benefit from their hard work, good ideas and risks taken in the past. Rather, reasonable people think that people should be able to do it now, too. This delusion that what was possible or has been achieved in the past is now possible with the same effort and good ideas is entirely wrong. Further, despite the fact a small businessman might aspire to be, and identify with a large corporation like Walmart, he is deluding himself. His odds are only a little better than my winning the lottery. You might have to up what you charge to pay your employees, but that's not taking away and competitive advantage you might have - Walmart does too. Edit: "I may or may not have worked hard, had great ideas, and taken a lot of risks, so now that I'm at the top, I should be able to exploit America for every dime it's worth" Is just lame. For that matter, any good idea I had as a peon at my last job was not my own. It didn't get me better pay, it didn't get me recognition... No, they just got patented and stolen. Nor did my hard work help me any. Some fatass manager above me that did nothing but sit on his fat ass tended to get the recognition. Whether you think you can, or you think you can't. You're correct. I couldn't even get a loan to buy a house with a near perfect credit score and 30% down. Even if I could get the money together, which I can't, a lot of people think they can and fail utterly. (The statistics on just how many fail differ greatly, but it's at least 50% in the first few years. Nevermind actually doing well.) My line of credit got taken away by the bank 5 years ago because we lost money. It never stopped me from increasing sales. Indeed, the one thing it did was made me look at all the crap that had grown up all around us in my businesses, which we cut to the bone. Still don't have a line of credit. Been offered one by the same bank that took the old one away. Told 'em to go fuck themselves. Don't need 'em now. However, more to the point, if I wanted to start a painting company right now...I'd need 200 business cards (first 250 free from Vista Print), a van or truck, access to a computer, and a printer. Most people have a car, if you live in a Maytag box, rental company's will give you credit (as will nearly all paint stores so long as you show them a signed contract) and if you brush your teeth just before you leave to knock on doors looking for work and you price your product properly, in 5 days you'll have contracts for 10 houses. The only thing stopping 99.999999% of the population from being successful in life is.....believing they can't. (And for the record...most people, with excellent credit and 30% down are having difficulty getting a loan today).

EdBowie -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 6:27:19 PM)
And had her husband's income been smaller, she would have had a harder time making up the missing income with government support, because there was an employed spouse in the home. Working 3 jobs is one thing when you drive... quite another when the available bus services add 3 to 5 hours a day away from the kids (and that roommate). Being a tightwad to achieve a goal is great. For some folks, it is also a luxury. quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie By eating less, getting a roommate, quitting smoking, driving less, working weekends at a different job for 3 years until they save enough to start a business.... (Like every single person in history who started a business before them). Why....amazingly enough....here's a woman who, on only her husbands meager 25 grand a year salary, raised 3 - 5 kids, bought a home (paid it off in 7 years), and actually became nationally known for....wait for it.....here it comes....spending LESS than she took in!!!!! http://dandilyonfluff.com/2011/05/the-dacyczyn-decision-interview-with-americas-favorite-tightwad-amy-dacyczyn/

Diore -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 6:47:28 PM)
There are 8 pages regarding this issue, and forgive me that I don't feel like skimming them all-- That said, a change in minimum wage is a bandaide for a very broken system. I'll get back to this. I know a lot of people don't like socialism and were raised with capitalistic views; however, somewhere along the line the system became horribly lopsided. Is it capitalism or corruption? It's hard to say. I'd advocate for some socialistic changes that provide for each citizen--fair disability and retirement benefits, medical care for all and reasonable shelter, food, etc for everyone. I understand that people feel some people will slack with these systems implemented. They already do. We also have a lot of false jobs being manned that technology has replaced, and with a growing world population, it's harder and harder to justify our current sense of money and economics. Increasing the minimum wage simply leads, and has always, to more inflation and higher spending. The money will end up in the same place as it is now, and it won't be those who would directly benefit from the temporary pay raise. We need to start thinking as a global economy. That or we seriously need to tighten ship and fix our agricultural concerns such as over-farming our land and our abundant needs for foreign resources. I think the former is much more plausible. In Serbia, it's a privilege for one to have the monetary means to take a DL exam, let alone afford the vehicle to use it. What about those people? They're humans, too. What about in our own backyard? At homeless shelters and soup kitchens? As the human race, we could solve a lot; as divided cultures, we're destined for the status quo on human history. So I ask you, what good does a raise in minimum wage do? You're already paying 40k for a Chevy pickup truck with a few add-ons, and what percent is that up from 10 years ago? Look it up. And that's paying for it twice, as we bailed out GM and they didn't have to pay back the entire debt with fair interest. Personally, I'm doing just fine financially, and I don't drive a pickup. Regardless, I live where people do need these vehicles for their livelihoods, and I hate to see politics turn people into mindless zombies. Small changes like changing currency standards and wages are not going to fix inflation, the disbursement of money and wealth or the larger issues at stake. Thanks for reading, and good luck arguing over liquid bandages for a massive trauma wound.

DauphinDior -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 6:50:13 PM)
*Diore

DesideriScuri -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 8:25:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Why is outsourcing profitable for a business? I do hope that this is a rhetorical question and that you'll cut to the chase. Not rhetorical. I asked to not look at just the first level, which is what "outsourcing" is. It's simply a first level answer and doesn't really give any more understanding at all.

thishereboi -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 8:37:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace Well for what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of raising minimum wages and enacting living wages. Because we're all valuable human beings and we should probably start acting like it. Frankly, workers need food clothing, and heat and people should be able to have things like that. The 6 members of the Walton family (as in Wal-Mart) have more wealth than the poorest 42% of Americans combined. Yeah. Read that again. There's a difference between making a living and making a killing. And the Waltons are making a killing at the expense of their own workers. Meier, Target and K-mart pay the same lousy wages as walmart so why doesn't anyone care about those workers. Now I can understand that a lot of people out there really hate the Waltons because they make so much money, but do you honestly think the heads of the three I mentioned are poor. Why doesn't anyone seem to care if the others are struggling to make ends meet. And if they do raise minimum wage what do you think will happen to prices. People still won't be able to make ends meet on what they make because things will cost more. I'm having trouble finding the hundreds of violations of labor law that Target or Meier or K-Mart have been convicted of. Wal-Mart OTOH: https://www.google.com/#q=walmart+labor+law+violations well if the others haven't had any lawsuits then certainly their employees are able to support their families on a shitty salary and walmart employees can't. thanks for clearing that up. I will go let them know that they get paid enough because you said so. I am sure they will be relieved to hear it. [8\|]

DesideriScuri -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 8:39:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chastityDom1 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Take the risks. Invest the time and money to build something and then you'll get the opportunity I am not sure that all these people on or near minimum wage have shit loads of time and money to invest. Almost by definition they don't. I suspect most of them are working far too hard at minimum wage just to keep themselves and/or their family housed and fed to have loads of spare time on their hands. I also suspect that if they are minimum wage they are probably not the kind of people that banks, in a recession are going to go out of their way to lend money too. Great when it works but basically it is a naïve fantasy It's not a naive fantasy. It's fucking difficult, no doubt. But, that's usually the way it goes. My Dad worked a full time job, went to grad school full time and held a part time weekends job so he could provide a better life for the family. At that time, he had one kid and a pregnant wife. I'm sure that was gravy. [8\|] How many people are married and providing for a family on minimum wage? How many people earning minimum wage are doing so part time? As a second job? The majority of minimum wage workers are teens. That category of worker tends to not be providing for a family, or providing their own homes. And, they also do have time on their hands.

DomKen -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/8/2013 8:56:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace Well for what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of raising minimum wages and enacting living wages. Because we're all valuable human beings and we should probably start acting like it. Frankly, workers need food clothing, and heat and people should be able to have things like that. The 6 members of the Walton family (as in Wal-Mart) have more wealth than the poorest 42% of Americans combined. Yeah. Read that again. There's a difference between making a living and making a killing. And the Waltons are making a killing at the expense of their own workers. Meier, Target and K-mart pay the same lousy wages as walmart so why doesn't anyone care about those workers. Now I can understand that a lot of people out there really hate the Waltons because they make so much money, but do you honestly think the heads of the three I mentioned are poor. Why doesn't anyone seem to care if the others are struggling to make ends meet. And if they do raise minimum wage what do you think will happen to prices. People still won't be able to make ends meet on what they make because things will cost more. I'm having trouble finding the hundreds of violations of labor law that Target or Meier or K-Mart have been convicted of. Wal-Mart OTOH: https://www.google.com/#q=walmart+labor+law+violations well if the others haven't had any lawsuits then certainly their employees are able to support their families on a shitty salary and walmart employees can't. thanks for clearing that up. I will go let them know that they get paid enough because you said so. I am sure they will be relieved to hear it. [8\|] Please learn to read English. I simply pointed out a major reason that most of the activity is aimed at Wal-Mart.

thishereboi -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/9/2013 5:27:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: AmandaPeace Well for what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of raising minimum wages and enacting living wages. Because we're all valuable human beings and we should probably start acting like it. Frankly, workers need food clothing, and heat and people should be able to have things like that. The 6 members of the Walton family (as in Wal-Mart) have more wealth than the poorest 42% of Americans combined. Yeah. Read that again. There's a difference between making a living and making a killing. And the Waltons are making a killing at the expense of their own workers. Meier, Target and K-mart pay the same lousy wages as walmart so why doesn't anyone care about those workers. Now I can understand that a lot of people out there really hate the Waltons because they make so much money, but do you honestly think the heads of the three I mentioned are poor. Why doesn't anyone seem to care if the others are struggling to make ends meet. And if they do raise minimum wage what do you think will happen to prices. People still won't be able to make ends meet on what they make because things will cost more. I'm having trouble finding the hundreds of violations of labor law that Target or Meier or K-Mart have been convicted of. Wal-Mart OTOH: https://www.google.com/#q=walmart+labor+law+violations well if the others haven't had any lawsuits then certainly their employees are able to support their families on a shitty salary and walmart employees can't. thanks for clearing that up. I will go let them know that they get paid enough because you said so. I am sure they will be relieved to hear it. [8\|] Please learn to read English. I simply pointed out a major reason that most of the activity is aimed at Wal-Mart. So they are just claiming that the uproar is because the employees can't afford to live on what they are being paid. I know move on held several protests the other day based on that claim but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that they would lie to get people behind them. After all that's what they do best.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/9/2013 5:28:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Please learn to read English. I simply pointed out a major reason that most of the activity is aimed at Wal-Mart. Please learn to stay on topic. WalMart wages being singled out has nothing to do with it's illegal actions in other wage matters. By making the argument that WalMart's illegal labor actions are why their wages are being singled out, it implies that if the wages would be acceptable if there hadn't been these illegal activities. If that's what you're saying, then, by all means, continue.

thishereboi -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/9/2013 5:33:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Please learn to read English. I simply pointed out a major reason that most of the activity is aimed at Wal-Mart. Please learn to stay on topic. WalMart wages being singled out has nothing to do with it's illegal actions in other wage matters. By making the argument that WalMart's illegal labor actions are why their wages are being singled out, it implies that if the wages would be acceptable if there hadn't been these illegal activities. If that's what you're saying, then, by all means, continue. Yes but it's a win win for them. They get support for their protests and if pretend they care about the poor (well at least the ones working at walmart) they are more likely to convince people that libs care about them more than repubs. The more people who believe the lie, the more that will vote for their side.

Lucylastic -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/9/2013 6:04:59 AM)
FR The lack of knowledge about who is fighting for what in the fight for a decent minimum wage is glaring in its enormity. I cant argue with wilful ignorance. just pity it.

HunterCA -> RE: Minimum wage in america (12/9/2013 9:24:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic yeah because LMAO how many millions of jobs were lost in the past decade? How many companies shut down, technology is getting rid of jobs, higher demands by shareholders, trickle down economics? Entry level is all some people have and will have....to survive on. Yet you wanna castigate them for taking the only jobs they can find, of course they are the problem.... fucking typical LMAO, there is actually no such thing as trickle down economics. That term was invented by liberals, as they so often do, to ridicule things they couldn't argue, exactly as you do here. Economics, basically is supply and demand. Supply side economics, as implemented by Reagan, was also how Kennedy wanted to jump start the economy after WWII and Korea forced the US into using a sluggish economy as a way to divert material to the wars.

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