RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (Full Version)

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EligibleOwner -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 5:51:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You are implying that any person who likes to be anally penetrated, is attracted to other men

No, I'm not. In fact, if a comment is about a straight man who wants to be anally penetrated with a strap-on, and someone reacts by saying the comment's "homophobic", isn't it really that person who's implying any man who likes to be anally penetrated must be gay? I think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

and isn't constraint by current mores as to his selection of clothing couldn't possible be a man.

No, I didn't say or imply that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

That's homophobic and extremely offensive.

No, it's not homophobic, as I've explained. I'm sorry you're offended, but that's because you're misinterpreting my words, and seeing homophobia where there is none. Anyway, no one has a right not to be offended. Some people are offended by this entire website.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Frankly, you don't get to decided that the outer ends of the bell curve aren't men, and the presumption to do so

You're right, and I haven't decided that. If by "the outer ends of the bell curve" you mean gay men, in fact I've not said anything about them at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

and then put down Fox when he makes a comment about it is extremely rude.

I defended myself against his unjustified accusation of homophobia. If you're going to accuse people of homophobia, you should not be surprised if they defend themselves with reasonable robustness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You owe him an apology.

I disagree.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 6:11:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You are implying that any person who likes to be anally penetrated, is attracted to other men

No, I'm not. In fact, if a comment is about a straight man who wants to be anally penetrated with a strap-on, and someone reacts by saying the comment's "homophobic", isn't it really that person who's implying any man who likes to be anally penetrated must be gay? I think so.



Don't quote me out of context by cutting off half the sentence. I didn't say "a person who likes anal penetration is attracted to other men" I made a summary list "You are implying that any person who likes to be anally penetrated, and/or who is attracted to other men, and/or who isn't constraint by current mores as to his selection of clothing couldn't possible be a man." That statement equals "IF a person falls under any of these categories THEN he isn't a man", which is what you suggested.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

and isn't constraint by current mores as to his selection of clothing couldn't possible be a man.

No, I didn't say or imply that.


Sorry, but stating that you make the assumption that other people are going to find people who do those things not to be men doesn't speak about what other people think, it speaks about what you think.

And you seem to think that people who engage in those behaviors aren't men, as evident by your projection of that idea onto a broad general class of women.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

That's homophobic and extremely offensive.

No, it's not homophobic, as I've explained. I'm sorry you're offended, but that's because you're misinterpreting my words, and seeing homophobia where there is none. Anyway, no one has a right not to be offended. Some people are offended by this entire website.


You don't see stating that people who engage in homosexual behavior aren't men as offensive?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Frankly, you don't get to decided that the outer ends of the bell curve aren't men, and the presumption to do so

You're right, and I haven't decided that. If by "the outer ends of the bell curve" you mean gay men, in fact I've not said anything about them at all.


I do not mean 'gay men' I mean what I said: people who fall on the outer ends of the bell curve. Which for the purpose of assessing your statements for example would include "human males who are interested in wearing female clothing" as it's a category you place under "not men" which also falls on the outer ends of the bell curve.



FightingChains -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 6:38:16 PM)

Is it just me thinking "people can like whatever they like, I don't judge them for it, I don't claim to know if they're better or worse for it, whatever you're into that's fine and go enjoy it in your own life"?

All this "less of men", "less dominant", "correct" is all sort of relative to how we each view these things, isn't it?

Why can't we just have fun, not judge others, and don't claim to know what others like, feel, or anything? Just find someone who's compatible with us and go enjoy (or not enjoy [;)]) our lives how we want to, and get on with it?

Or am I weird like that?



littlewonder -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 6:51:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

But I can say that while I seriously doubt mouse would think that, she would most certainly think, "He ain't the man for me."
That's the safest bet in the universe.


Yup. You'd be very much correct on that. The moment you tell me to ram you in the ass with a dildo, finger or cucumber, is the moment that our relationship is in mucho danger.





EligibleOwner -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 7:16:32 PM)

I'm sorry, UllrsIshtar. I didn't mean to quote you out of context, but I can now see that I did. I genuinely misunderstood you.

I'm glad that you're not accusing me of "implying that any person who likes to be anally penetrated, is attracted to other men". Fair enough, and thanks. I think I must have read your accusation in that way because I couldn't see how homophobia came into it, otherwise.

So I accept that what you actually said was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You are implying that any person who likes to be anally penetrated, is attracted to other men, and isn't constraint by current mores as to his selection of clothing couldn't possible be a man.

But my answer is still that no, I wasn't implying any such thing.

You also say (I'll take your comments in turn):

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

stating that you make the assumption that other people are going to find people who do those things not to be men doesn't speak about what other people think, it speaks about what you think.

I disagree. Also, I do not and did not assume those guys "not to be men", nor did I state that I made that assumption. Honestly, I find it hard to relate your criticisms to what I actually wrote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

you seem to think that people who engage in those behaviors aren't men

For some reason I seem to you to do so, but I honestly don't see how you get that from what I wrote. How could I actually believe a gay man is not a man? It makes no sense, and if you go back and read my post, you'll see I never said it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You don't see stating that people who engage in homosexual behavior aren't men as offensive?

I didn't state any such thing. Please read my post again, and you’ll see that I didn’t. As I’ve already said, I’m sorry you feel offended, but no one has a right not to be offended.

By the way, what’s the “homosexual behaviour” you’re referring to here? You can’t mean a straight man wanting to wear his girlfriend’s clothes (which I mentioned). If you mean wanting to be anally penetrated, then we’re back to me thinking it’s you who is in fact making the assumption I thought (wrongly, I now realise) you were accusing me of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I do not mean 'gay men'

Okay ... so if it's not about gay men, why are you accusing me of homophobia?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I mean what I said: people who fall on the outer ends of the bell curve. Which for the purpose of assessing your statements for example would include "human males who are interested in wearing female clothing" as it's a category you place under "not men" which also falls on the outer ends of the bell curve.

This seems to have changed into an accusation of prejudice against cross-dressers or trans people, rather than homophobia. But I never placed any human male in a category of "not men". Please look at my post again, and you'll see that I didn't.

I don’t want to keep labouring this debate endlessly, UllrsIshtar, partly because it’s late where I am, and partly because this must be boring for those who actually want to read and comment on the straight dominant man/strap-on thing. If you’re determined to have the final word, so be it. We’ve both said enough to enable anyone who reads this thread to look back at our posts and decide if anything I’ve written is homophobic, or if you’ve unfairly accused me of homophobia.



Blueswordsman -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 7:48:52 PM)

LMAO
Load the vibrators and full speed ahead!
All straight men are homophobes unless they wear women's clothing
UllrsIshtar is the goddess of logic
Men protect your hiney holes the strapons are coming. [sm=excuseme.gif] [sm=excuseme.gif][sm=excuseme.gif]



FightingChains -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 11:01:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner
In fact, if a comment is about a straight man who wants to be anally penetrated with a strap-on, and someone reacts by saying the comment's "homophobic", isn't it really that person who's implying any man who likes to be anally penetrated must be gay? I think so.


I believe the thing UllrsIshtar finds homophobic the suggestion that a straight man taking it anally is less of a man - "Why would a man want that?". How is this homophobic? Let me explain:

If this is the case, what's the difference between a straight man taking it anally, and a gay man taking it anally? Not much. It's the same act. So how are we somehow to believe that a gay man taking it anally is not less of a man? If anything, he is attracted to men, which is even less of a "standard man quality".

Your attitude seems to show that you view a man receiving anal sex as "less manly". You then, for no reason, seem to think "Oh but for gay men it's not less manly" but I don't see how being gay makes that any more manly than a straight man taking it?

I'm not offended. But I see where her logic comes from.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 11:09:47 PM)

Euhm...

quote:


But if he wants to wear any of her clothes, say, if he's attracted to other men, or if he wants to be anally penetrated, then I think it's often going to make her think "Why the hell would a man want that?".


"If he's attracted to other men" then "why would somebody who is a man want that" = implication that "people attracted to other (or who wear women's clothes) men are not men".



FightingChains -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/26/2014 11:16:29 PM)

Jeez, I didn't see that one. Yeah, that's just even more clearly homophobic. Again, I'm not offended as a gay man. I see all this shit way too often in my line of work...



ARIES83 -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 1:23:13 AM)

Hmmm. I don't think homosexuality excludes masculinity at all.
I think it was a bad choice of words EligibleOwner considering what I believe you were actually getting at.

Ishtar,
Where do you fall on the subject of, dominant/submissive associations to some degree accompanying acts such as giving/receiving penetration?



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 1:47:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Ishtar,
Where do you fall on the subject of, dominant/submissive associations to some degree accompanying acts such as giving/receiving penetration?


I think dominance is related to power and influence over others and not act driven.

For example (yup I'm using Kana again, he's just going to become my example for everything) Kana mentioned on this thread that lw wouldn't take well to a man desiring to be penetrated anally. So if Kana could manage to command lw to do so anyways, without her thereupon feeling less secure with him as her partner, I'd consider that an act of sheer dominance.

Which isn't to imply that I believe that Kana currently isn't capable of acts of dominance in regards lw.



Blueswordsman -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 4:28:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

My submissive girlfriend has told me that she's curious about pegging me. I was just wondering whether there are any other Dominant men in here who enjoy this, and if so, how does it work for you?



Chesterfield91
Anal play is not necessarily submissive or homosexual behavior. Some people enjoy the pleasure of things stuck up their ass, Others don't. We all have enjoyed a scratch.

If you like the idea or think you want to try it out. Go for it. Your lady will not think less of you as a man or a Dom for playing strapon with her. If the idea repulses you tell her you give ass "butt" you don't take it. However since she asked in a curious but respectful way, You will allow her to lick your anus for as long as she wants.

how does it work for me? I'm an exit only kind of guy.

[sm=passthelube.gif]





frunandsins -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 5:27:38 AM)

I feel compelled to point out that the original post from EligibleOwner was speaking from his interpretation of what a female sub would think, not what he thinks. He hasn't come out with criticism of such a way of thinking yet that I can see, but neither has he stated that he concurs. It's a fine line to walk.

Or I could have just missed the parts where he did claim these attitudes as his own. I am, after all, posting before my morning tea.



EligibleOwner -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 7:16:59 AM)

Thank you for actually reading what I wrote.



EligibleOwner -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 7:41:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I think it was a bad choice of words EligibleOwner considering what I believe you were actually getting at.

Thanks. I don't think there was an issue with my choice of words, but I will have a think about that.

If you think that's the worst of it, though, and that I've not actually been "spreading homophobia" (which I've been accused of in this thread), I'd appreciate it if you said so.



frunandsins -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 8:41:31 AM)

Re: Eligible Owner

As a piece of unsolicited advice, in most cases, people engaging in a discussion with you tend to prefer discussing the issue in relation to your opinion, not what your opinion would be as if you were someone else. It takes little to no effort to simply state your own take on the issue, and then there will be a lot less ambiguity, especially when you take on the speaks-person role for a set of opinion.



JeffBC -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 9:39:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner
...I think it's often going to make her think "Why the hell would a man want that?".

Perhaps a lot of women might think that. A lot of women might also think I'm an abusive asshat? A lot of women might think I'm too tall, too short, too casual, too dressy, too old, too young, too skinny, too fat...

They would all be right... for them.

From my own standpoint this works out fine. If any woman thought what you are writing above they would automatically be a poor match for me. I do my best to understand the people around me rather than shoehorn them into caricatures of people. I'd expect my partner to do the same. Any person who couldn't answer the question you've asked above and didn't have the communication skills or interest to find out just wouldn't be a good match for me.

NOTE: That is a different statement than saying they "don't like it" or "find it unattractive" which is, of course everyone's prerogative.



SailingBum -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 12:44:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner

Thank you for actually reading what I wrote.



Rarely do I come to the defense of someone in the forums, however I felt compelled. Ishtar has taken your words and used pretzel logic <twisted> and them to suit her agenda for unknown reasons. Personally, I'd have ripped her a new one <asshole that is> smirk. You on the other hand, are much more diplomatic.

Sometimes it's best to allow ppl to rant and make fools of themselves.

BadOne



EligibleOwner -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 1:14:34 PM)

I was going to leave this, but now a third person has unfairly accused me of homophobia, so I’m going to respond again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

I'm not offended as a gay man.

I’m going to disagree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I want to start by thanking you for saying that. I accept that you think at least some of what I wrote is homophobic, but still, that is a generous and helpful thing to say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

I believe the thing UllrsIshtar finds homophobic the suggestion that a straight man taking it anally is less of a man - "Why would a man want that?". How is this homophobic? Let me explain:

If this is the case, what's the difference between a straight man taking it anally, and a gay man taking it anally? Not much. It's the same act.

It’s not the same act, actually. The original post is about a straight man, in a straight relationship, with a straight woman who’s his submissive. My post was responding to a straight woman’s comment, and it was about the possible feelings of many straight women in this context because of traditional attitudes and thoughts about gender that (as I explained) I think are often wrapped up in maledom-femsub relationships. Some people might not like the idea that some men and women may feel like that – but then, some people would be deeply offended by everything that everyone on this website thinks. In any case, someone's not liking those feelings, or even thinking those feelings homophobic, doesn’t mean simply discussing them is homophobic.

If you simply strip out the straight, maledom-femsub context I was discussing, and the types of emotions that may involve, and discuss it as though it’s just about “something entering someone anally”, then with respect you’re bound to completely miss the point of what I was saying, which is precisely about the cultural and emotional dynamics in the particular context. The gender relations aspect of it, for a lot of couples I think, is on some level part of the kink, and certainly part of the love. It’s not wrong, any more than butch and femme is in some lesbian relationships. I dread to think how saying that might now be construed as somehow “anti-lesbian”.

If you take that context into account, and the gender attitudes I was talking about, you’ll understand that a man in this situation being anally fucked by his girlfriend (which is key) with a strap on is actually not the same thing as two gay men having anal sex. The gender context, the reversal of traditional gendered ideas of dominance and sexuality (which is key), without even having to mention the strap-on, means it’s not “the same act” at all.

Oh, plus I never said a straight man taking it anally is less of a man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

he is attracted to men, which is even less of a "standard man quality".

I didn’t say that: you did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Your attitude seems to show that you view a man receiving anal sex as "less manly". You then, for no reason, seem to think "Oh but for gay men it's not less manly" but I don't see how being gay makes that any more manly than a straight man taking it?

No, I said I thought some submissive women in this situation might feel wanting to be anally penetrated by her (which is key) with a strap on, made their partner less masculine. I wasn’t talking about gay men, on either side of the “penetrate”.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Yeah, that's just even more clearly homophobic.

No it’s not. The comment of mine that you were responding to, which included the words –

quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner

Why the hell would a man want that

actually has written into it the plain implication that the man is indeed a man. I really don’t understand how it’s been worked up into an accusation that I’ve said gay men aren’t men, and am therefore homophobic.

None of what I said in my comment has anything to do with homophobia, and these repeated accusations are unjustified.



EligibleOwner -> RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? (3/27/2014 1:17:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins

As a piece of unsolicited advice, in most cases, people engaging in a discussion with you tend to prefer discussing the issue in relation to your opinion, not what your opinion would be as if you were someone else. It takes little to no effort to simply state your own take on the issue, and then there will be a lot less ambiguity, especially when you take on the speaks-person role for a set of opinion.

Thanks – I know you’re trying to help me and everyone. And I take the point that complexity increases the likelihood of misunderstanding. I’ll try to learn from that.

And please don’t read the rest of my response as hostile in tone. It’s not. It’s explanatory. I’m trying to explain why I don’t see it quite your way, and why I don’t think this is about my failure to make an obviously advisable effort to avoid ambiguity.

The thread isn’t about what I’d feel if my boyfriend wanted me to fuck him anally with a strap on or otherwise. I’ve never had a boyfriend, and I’ve never been a submissive woman. I can’t give a serious opinion about what I’d feel. My take on the issue (not some other issues about gay men) is in my comment, and it's about what the people in the situation described in the original post might feel. And my accusers don’t seem to think this is about any ambiguity. I’ve been accused of saying something “clearly homophobic”.

Also, you said –

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins

EligibleOwner was speaking from his interpretation of what a female sub would think, not what he thinks. He hasn't come out with criticism of such a way of thinking yet that I can see, but neither has he stated that he concurs. It's a fine line to walk.

Yes, you’ve understood me, except I didn’t say “a female sub would think” anything. I was talking about what many submissive women might think, having explicitly stressed that not everyone's the same.

I really don’t understand why it’s a fine line, or why it matters whether I criticise the way of thinking I was discussing, or concur with it. This entire thread is not about my feelings. And how could I “concur” with it? How can I, a male who’s never been involved with a man, and never had submissive sexual feelings, “concur” in the feelings a submissive woman might have about what her man wants her to do to him in bed?

If the implication is that what I’ve said is kinda borderline okay, as long as I make clear I myself am not happy with what I suspect these women might be thinking – sorry, but no. I’m absolutely not going there.

If I’m right (I may be wrong of course) that some straight submissive women would feel something like what I described, in that situation, then I would certainly not criticise them for their feelings. Their feelings would be valid, just like anyone else’s, and I wouldn’t condemn them any more than I’d condemn anyone else’s. I find it a bit surprising that the idea of criticising anyone’s feelings about the sex and kink in their relationship can even enter into a discussion here, to be honest.

And if you want one more reason why I wouldn’t criticise them, it’s this: their feelings would not be homophobic. They’d have nothing at all to do with homophobia.



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