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DesideriScuri -> Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 6:50:31 AM)

I just read the October issue of Imprimis. While it is odd that it was delivered this week, it was still a very interesting read.

Here it is in pdf format.

I would like to get the opinions of P&R on the gist of Marini's assertions. I know there will be some that will oppose whatever any Imprimis says, simply because it's in the Imprimis, from Hillsdale College, or some other stupid partisan horseshit. None of that addresses the actual meat of the article, which is what I'd rather discuss.




vincentML -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 7:32:45 AM)

Well, it is a long article. Perhaps someone else can read the second half. The Constitution and the checks and balances of government were established when the news from France brought fear and at a time when the new nation was an agricultural and merchants' society of limited land and population, built upon the slave trade. We grew into an industrial society with needs the Framers could not imagine and with huge corporations that would have made them cringe in their provincial notions of liberty. Can you imagine a Congress able to fight global wars and extend global trade? Can Marini explain who would have paid for the innovations in science, health, and technology that help support 330 million people? Maybe the structure of our government is out of date and inadequate to respond to the modern world without a strong executive in the presidency.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 7:57:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well, it is a long article. Perhaps someone else can read the second half. ...


IOW, you're not going to actually address the points made by Marini.





RottenJohnny -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 8:18:02 AM)

I'm also sure someone will come along to nitpick what's in here, DS, but I find a lot in that paper to agree with. The historic specifics of "what and why" that have allowed our government to become what it is I'm not as qualified to speak to as some others but nevertheless, I see the same end results the author describes.

In a recent thread, you were asking about the reasoning behind the tax penalty involved with the ACA. My comment to you was...

quote:

In my view, it's the fee you have to pay to actually exercise your freedom to not participate in a social program...which is exactly why the ACA offends me so much. How do you justify making people pay for their freedom in a country that supposedly recognizes it as a human right?

The point I was trying to make is similar to, but much better explained by, what the author says here...

quote:

When law ceases to be a common standard of right and wrong and a common measure to decide all controversies, then the rule of law ceases to be republican and becomes despotic. Freedom itself ceases to be a right and becomes a gift, or the fruit of a corrupt bargain, because in such degraded regimes those who are close to and connected with the ruling class have special privileges.

This is why I get so frustrated with those on the left who seem to think the answer for everything is more government intervention. I find their justification for so much they argue for to be so overwhelmingly short-sighted in that they either don't recognize, or don't care, about the slow degredation to personal freedom they're inflicting on the populace.

What bothers me even further is that I see some Republicans using that willingness of citizens to let government "fix" everything as a doorway to shove some of their equally repulsive laws down our throats at the expense of our individual freedoms.

My final evaluation of what's going on in our government is exactly what the author describes in his closing statement and in my view, it could very well be the impetus for what has the potential to become the next American Civil War.

quote:

Despite its expansion under both parties, however, the administrative state has not attained legitimacy. The Constitution itself remains the source of authority for those in and out of government who oppose the administrative state, and a stumbling block to those who support it. Until either the administrative state or the Constitution is definitively delegitimized, the battle within both government and the electorate over the size and scope of the federal government—including government shutdowns and showdowns over the debt limit—will inevitably continue.

The reason I'm more concerned with the left is because I've heard more rhetoric aimed at "deligitimizing" what's written in the Constitution from there than anywhere else. Regardless, I'm watching both sides with the skeptics eye and simply voting on the intent of maintaining the personal freedom of the citizenry.





Yachtie -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 8:31:05 AM)

RottenJohnny, you nailed it. [:D] By delegimitizing the Constitution, my only question is asking as they do, being legitimizing what in its place? The only answer I can fathom is what is discernable by observation. Unfortunately, and as I have said before, if history is any guide, the result will not be pleasant.





RottenJohnny -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 8:44:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
...legitimizing what in its place?

The Cult of Diana (the mother goddess), the tit of "equity through inequity", a.k.a. "The Nanny State".




Yachtie -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 8:45:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
...legitimizing what in its place?

The Cult of Diana (the mother goddess), the tit of "equity through inequity", a.k.a. "The Nanny State".



That is what I observe.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 9:01:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
I'm also sure someone will come along to nitpick what's in here, DS, but I find a lot in that paper to agree with. The historic specifics of "what and why" that have allowed our government to become what it is I'm not as qualified to speak to as some others but nevertheless, I see the same end results the author describes.
In a recent thread, you were asking about the reasoning behind the tax penalty involved with the ACA. My comment to you was...
quote:

In my view, it's the fee you have to pay to actually exercise your freedom to not participate in a social program...which is exactly why the ACA offends me so much. How do you justify making people pay for their freedom in a country that supposedly recognizes it as a human right?

The point I was trying to make is similar to, but much better explained by, what the author says here...
quote:

When law ceases to be a common standard of right and wrong and a common measure to decide all controversies, then the rule of law ceases to be republican and becomes despotic. Freedom itself ceases to be a right and becomes a gift, or the fruit of a corrupt bargain, because in such degraded regimes those who are close to and connected with the ruling class have special privileges.

This is why I get so frustrated with those on the left who seem to think the answer for everything is more government intervention. I find their justification for so much they argue for to be so overwhelmingly short-sighted in that they either don't recognize, or don't care, about the slow degredation to personal freedom they're inflicting on the populace.
What bothers me even further is that I see some Republicans using that willingness of citizens to let government "fix" everything as a doorway to shove some of their equally repulsive laws down our throats at the expense of our individual freedoms.
My final evaluation of what's going on in our government is exactly what the author describes in his closing statement and in my view, it could very well be the impetus for what has the potential to become the next American Civil War.
quote:

Despite its expansion under both parties, however, the administrative state has not attained legitimacy. The Constitution itself remains the source of authority for those in and out of government who oppose the administrative state, and a stumbling block to those who support it. Until either the administrative state or the Constitution is definitively delegitimized, the battle within both government and the electorate over the size and scope of the federal government—including government shutdowns and showdowns over the debt limit—will inevitably continue.

The reason I'm more concerned with the left is because I've heard more rhetoric aimed at "deligitimizing" what's written in the Constitution from there than anywhere else. Regardless, I'm watching both sides with the skeptics eye and simply voting on the intent of maintaining the personal freedom of the citizenry.


It is clear that both parties are complicit in the building of the bureaucratic administration.

I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of Marini's assertions, either. I'm hoping there will be some sort of discussions of the merits of his analysis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
RottenJohnny, you nailed it. [:D] By delegimitizing the Constitution, my only question is asking as they do, being legitimizing what in its place? The only answer I can fathom is what is discernable by observation. Unfortunately, and as I have said before, if history is any guide, the result will not be pleasant.


Bureaucratic Administration several layers insulated from the whims of the voters.




joether -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/1/2013 11:04:51 PM)

'Administrative State' = 'BIG GOVERNMENT'.

That is really at the heart of this document. And the attack on the 'big government' as not being what the framers of the US Constitution had in mind when the nation first started. Well, hate to explain this, but the framers are all currently quite dead. They've been that way for at least 150 years. The sort of ideas mentioned in the Federalist Papers were good for its time. However, modern age of America prevents much of those papers from being take in any useful means besides 'short sighted'. Yes, the very definition of 'limited government' is often widely debated. What is considered 'an encroachment' by government to one person is not seen by another. Now who is right? An who is wrong? That is a subjective answer, not an objective one.

Could a limited government operate the whole of the United States of America? Not really. To many structures and systems in play to limit things down. Consider for the moment that the federal system operated in the limited fashion many demand. Each state would operate much of its structures and systems differently from other states within a few years if not immediately. Would it be 'ok' if individual states created their own airline codes and regulations? Pilots need to remember quite a bit these days, with fewer hours of sleep to keep up with the 'latest' material from 37 different state regulations. While lawyers could instruct pilots in those laws; its not as easy when the pilots have to make snap decisions because shit is hitting the fan to get the plane safely on the ground. How about with food and beverage quality? Medicine? Housing? Education? Defense? Under a limited government, each of these would be left to the states to handle. Some would handle things much better than others. Ironically the ones that want this stuff generally live in those states that are currently taking more federal dollars than then give (i.e. many red states).

How fast could individual states bounce back after a major disaster in their backyard? I'm talking people living in the areas effected, businesses rebuilding and commencing commerce once more, and the general 'vibe' the state is doing well (which generally would attract MORE business). A category 5 hurricane rampaging through Florida could devastate the state for a few years if not a decade! One major earthquake in California could do damage over a large area. Or a man made disaster with terrorists blowing up a nuclear planet? These are all pretty big disasters in their own right. And as we have seen with countries with 'limited government', they do not bounce back immediately. The Gulf Horizon oil spill back a few years ago affected the Gulf of Mexico from Texas to Florida. Without a Big Government, spending money to fix the problem not just in the ocean but the entire line of hundreds of communities along that coast; how long would it take those states to clean it up on their own? Those states would be embattled in the 'limited court' over litigation and property rights for years if not decades. Meanwhile all those businesses that once depended on tourist traffic die off quickly.

The author then attacks the Affordable Care Act as a 'monster' of this big government. I can tell he never read the document, as its 2409 pages long....NOT....2500+. That is including all the amendments that were created during the final process of the votes (which number about 17 pages). Further, the 'administrative' did not pass it. It was a bill, then it got debated on for months, BEFORE, a vote by BOTH chambers of Congress and sent off to President for signing into law. To pass this law in any other form or manner is simply insanity and stupidity mixed together! The author does not say it directly, but indirectly hints at some form of 'conspiracy' (which would therefore be 'unconstitutional').

quote:


This extension of governmental power, or more precisely the power of unelected bureaucrats, is compatible with the administrative state, but not with the letter or the spirit of constitutional government.


This guy is allowed his opinion. Unfortunately, the citizens of the United States....VOTED.....on things. I know that's a strange concept to have to bring up to someone that seems to have gone to a great length of trouble to learn things in the first place. The actual people in Congress are not going to handle the whole government. Instead it is left to "...unelected bureaucrats..." who are also known as 'government employees'. I almost feel dumb having to explain this part, but I have to, since people in this country REALLY are THIS dumb to NOT know this BY NOW! When a bill is passed that calls for some action to take place, Congress authorizes government to perform the task as its defined in the bill itself. If a group is formed, the bill will explain the responsibilities and limits of the operation itself. Most often it is not defined in exact terms since there is no way to write in concepts that have not been understood thanks to 'time'. The Department of Homeland Security is one such example of "...unelected bureaucrats..." handling functions within the US Government. I seem to recall many 'limited government' types voting for Republicans who in turn created this group nearly a decade ago. After all, government NEVER increases under a Republican administration, but always under a Democrat, right?

quote:


Despite its expansion under both parties, however, the administrative state has not attained legitimacy. The Constitution itself remains the source of authority for those in and out of government who oppose the administrative state, and a stumbling block to those who support it. Until either the administrative state or the Constitution is definitively delegitimized, the battle within both government and the electorate over the size and scope of the federal government—including government shutdowns and showdowns over the debt limit—will inevitably continue.


I can see why your pushing this B.S. to the forum, DS. The guy can have his view on the US Government the same as the next. I disagree with his view in this passage (the ending). The current US Government has legitimacy whether we as Americans like it or not. We the People....VOTED....for of this to come into existence. Not everyone voted on any one particular item, but those that voted got their voice heard; the winners of the votes, not the losers. An while Americans disagree or not on the Affordable Care Act, the point is....the US Voters....VOTED....to elected people into office that created and....VOTED....on the creation of the bill that was signed into law by a guy that Americans....VOTED....into the White House in 2008. The author does not seem to understand this most basic of American concepts as it relates to the US Constitution. Which baffles me since he obviously attended a number of higher educational institutions (hell, he's even worked at a few of them).




Zonie63 -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 5:51:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I just read the October issue of Imprimis. While it is odd that it was delivered this week, it was still a very interesting read.

Here it is in pdf format.

I would like to get the opinions of P&R on the gist of Marini's assertions. I know there will be some that will oppose whatever any Imprimis says, simply because it's in the Imprimis, from Hillsdale College, or some other stupid partisan horseshit. None of that addresses the actual meat of the article, which is what I'd rather discuss.


I'm not sure if I agree with the author when he traces the beginnings of the administrative state to 1965 and LBJ's Great Society. It probably started much sooner, when the issue of states' rights vs. federal power was decided back in 1865. The Republicans were pretty clear on their position back then. Having virtual monopolistic control over the federal government was quite advantageous for the Republicans and their wealthy backers.

People don't seem to mind a centralized administrative state as long as they get to call the shots, but if it's someone else in charge or they have to share power, suddenly the administrative state becomes a bad thing.

Something else written by the author here:

quote:

In summary, Congress has become a
major player in the administrative state
precisely by surrendering its constitutional
purpose and ceasing to defend
limited government. As a result, the
administrative state has grown dramatically
since 1965, and it only continues
to defend and expand its turf. Political
opposition occasionally arises in the
White House or in Congress, but thus far
with little effect.


He seems to be portraying Congress as some sort independent entity, as if it's supposed to be untouched by politics and that their role to defend limited government is specifically defined and outlined.

The thing is, neither party defends limited government as a matter of ideology or based on Constitutional principles. Conservatives often claim to want "limited government," but only in the areas of taxes, social programs, and regulations on business and commerce. But when it comes to national defense, the intelligence community, and law enforcement apparatus, they reverse their principles and suddenly want an all-powerful central government. But I don't see how they can have it both ways. You can't advocate an all-powerful central government in one department and not expect it to apply to other departments too.

That's always been the fatal flaw for those who demand "limited government," since they don't really want limited government, not as a matter of ideology or principle, since they do not support that principle consistently across the board.

Theoretically, there's much that is compelling about the idea of limited government, if it could ever be done consistently and at all levels of government (not just federal).

As an individual citizen, I find that my daily life is more directly affected and touched by state and local government more than the federal government itself, which has more of an indirect, "big picture" function in society at large, but not something I need to deal with as often as I deal with local or state government. I pay more taxes to the federal government, and I'll admit their fiscal irresponsibility does bother me. But at least it's taxation with representation.

I'm surprised the author didn't say a few words about the Office of Management and Budget. We don't really hear much about them, but they actually figure prominently within the Executive Branch. Someone actually has to read through all these bills and budget proposals and determine how it will impact the government. These bills are humongous and no single person can read through and digest them all in their entirety. The President doesn't have time to read through all that, so he needs whole departments to sort through it all and give him synopses.

The bureaucrats and lobbyists are also in on the process as well. It's not just Congress, although they're a large part of the problem too.

I agree with the author's criticisms of Congress, although I would say the problems are within the major political parties which are also centralized with their national committees on top of their respective hierarchies. It should be no surprise that they operate the federal government in the same way they operate their own parties. On paper, Congress may have the most power, but as individual politicians, each member has the least power when compared to the bigger fish in Washington. Members of the House have to run for re-election every 2 years, so they're in the most vulnerable position, as politicians. The only ones with any sort of power are those with a lot of tenure, who have been in for 15-20+ years and become senior members on key committees.

It's really kind of astonishing that Congress is able to get anything done at all, what with 535 different personalities from different walks of life, different regions of the country, different political parties, different ideologies - and all of them ostensibly politically ambitious and savvy enough to get there in the first place, and no doubt with big egos and a puffed-up sense of self-importance, too.

I think that Congress could do a better job. I think just about everyone agrees on that, even Congress itself. But if Congress is doing a crappy job, what does that say about the people who elect them? If Congress is failing its Constitutional purpose (as the author sees it), then why shouldn't anyone expect the same from those portions of government which are unelected by the people?

We, the People, elect Congress. It's the one branch of government where the People have the most direct control, and this is what we do with it? These are the people we elect? If we can't do much with what little power we have to change our government, then not much is going to change.

We also elect the President, but that's just one person we elect to be in charge of the entire Executive Branch of government, but how can one person run that humongous organization all by himself? It might have been easier when government was smaller, but now, they need to have whole departments within the EOP just to help the President run the government.





vincentML -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 6:06:54 AM)

quote:

The thing is, neither party defends limited government as a matter of ideology or based on Constitutional principles. Conservatives often claim to want "limited government," but only in the areas of taxes, social programs, and regulations on business and commerce. But when it comes to national defense, the intelligence community, and law enforcement apparatus, they reverse their principles and suddenly want an all-powerful central government. But I don't see how they can have it both ways. You can't advocate an all-powerful central government in one department and not expect it to apply to other departments too.

Good post, Zonie, as usual. Let me repeat what I suggested earlier in this thread. The world has become too complex, communications too fast, armies too powerful, economies too intricate to expect efficacy from a government that was conceived by the agriculture and merchant elites we call the Founders. Those who idealize small government have misplaced nostalgia for the bucolic simplicity of the early 19th Century. This isn't Kansas, Toto.




mnottertail -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 7:55:17 AM)

As I read this I ran across this:
[color=#231f20 size=3][color=#231f20 size=3][color=#231f20 size=3]
In the 1980s, President Reagan showed that the budget process could be used to
limit spending and reduce the burden of administrative regulations.
 
Which of course is a premise that is wholly untrue.  No sense reading beyond that, nothing in the way of a unflawed conclusion can come from flawed premises.
 
So, at that point, I quit the foolishness.  He has some fair points up until then, nothing earthshaking. 




Phydeaux -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 9:05:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The thing is, neither party defends limited government as a matter of ideology or based on Constitutional principles. Conservatives often claim to want "limited government," but only in the areas of taxes, social programs, and regulations on business and commerce. But when it comes to national defense, the intelligence community, and law enforcement apparatus, they reverse their principles and suddenly want an all-powerful central government. But I don't see how they can have it both ways. You can't advocate an all-powerful central government in one department and not expect it to apply to other departments too.

Good post, Zonie, as usual. Let me repeat what I suggested earlier in this thread. The world has become too complex, communications too fast, armies too powerful, economies too intricate to expect efficacy from a government that was conceived by the agriculture and merchant elites we call the Founders. Those who idealize small government have misplaced nostalgia for the bucolic simplicity of the early 19th Century. This isn't Kansas, Toto.


I find no value in this argument.

Technology changes. People do not. The challenges of managing people, land, resources remain the same, year after year, generation after generation. Nation after nation.

Do you suppose Roman government was simple because it occured 2000 years ago? Or Chinese?

Very little of what the framers wrote is geared toward their age. They did not write "thou shalt provide internet" - they provided mechanisms for trade and communication.

Isn't the logical conclusion of your argument that the constitution is worthless? In some arbitrary time, in some arbitrary place perhaps 500 years from now or perhaps 5, wouldn't the circumstances have changed so much (in your viewpoint) that it is meaningless?

If that is so- then wht is the constitution to you but an inconvenience?

Put me firmly in the camp that I value the constitution far more than government that grows and tries to replace it.




joether -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 3:05:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

The thing is, neither party defends limited government as a matter of ideology or based on Constitutional principles. Conservatives often claim to want "limited government," but only in the areas of taxes, social programs, and regulations on business and commerce. But when it comes to national defense, the intelligence community, and law enforcement apparatus, they reverse their principles and suddenly want an all-powerful central government. But I don't see how they can have it both ways. You can't advocate an all-powerful central government in one department and not expect it to apply to other departments too.

Good post, Zonie, as usual. Let me repeat what I suggested earlier in this thread. The world has become too complex, communications too fast, armies too powerful, economies too intricate to expect efficacy from a government that was conceived by the agriculture and merchant elites we call the Founders. Those who idealize small government have misplaced nostalgia for the bucolic simplicity of the early 19th Century. This isn't Kansas, Toto.

I find no value in this argument.


Why am I not surprised.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Technology changes. People do not. The challenges of managing people, land, resources remain the same, year after year, generation after generation. Nation after nation.


Last I checked the Romans never had to deal with large scale structures or land development; its pretty typical of the US Corp. of Engineers these days. The Romans never had to deal with projects in near Earth orbit, yet America has many such projects going right now (i.e. weather, spying, telecoms, scientific, etc). Nor did the Romans ever have to deal with the in-depth concepts of managing those resources and people. Its not that technology changed, but the knowledge of HOW to create and use technology has changed. Imagine how much the Roman Empire could have collected if they were as well geared as the US Military of today....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Do you suppose Roman government was simple because it occured 2000 years ago? Or Chinese?


Actually, by today's standards, yes, both governments would be simple by today's standards. Neither one had an exact definition on anything INCLUDING their treasury! They did not know how many persons were in their military let alone their country. Or what sort of industries, in what sort of capacity and economic health like the US Government in 2013, in any one geographical region of their empires. Neither country had an ability to sent media out to 'the people', since the printing press had not been developed let alone "hearing about something a few seconds AFTER it happen half a world away".

Would the Roman government have falter had it both the technology and technical know-how of today? Not likely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Very little of what the framers wrote is geared toward their age. They did not write "thou shalt provide internet" - they provided mechanisms for trade and communication.


Actually the framers could not have written on subject matter that was not known to them at the time. They couldn't see into the future with even semi-accuracy knowledge. Otherwise the 2nd Amendment would have much more well defined for example (left in pretty exacting definition). The 'Federalist Papers' while interesting to read, does not really help the United States in the modern age. The ideas, concepts, and thinking is of knowledge in the late 18th and early 19th century. Would George Washington been elected as President had he run in 2016 rather back then? Sec. of State John Kerry saw actual military combat but lost to a guy in the race for President by another guy that never saw actual military conflict in a warzone.

The founding fathers understood that as the country developed, the rules and ideas of founding principles would be better understood. They believed future generations would know best on how to deal with future problems. This is a fatal flaw in my conservative thinks right now. That the US Constitution (the original document) is set in stone and can never be changed. Yet can not seem to explain if that was true why there are seventeen additional amendments to it (including one that places blacks with equal voting rights). Nor that as time, technology and technical know-how developed, each of those ideas expressed originally would be tested in ways the founding fathers could not even dream let alone place into words. There is NOTHING in the US Constitution that explains how one 'buys' and 'sells' something that does NOT exist in the real world. That happens very often in my MMO games right now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Isn't the logical conclusion of your argument that the constitution is worthless? In some arbitrary time, in some arbitrary place perhaps 500 years from now or perhaps 5, wouldn't the circumstances have changed so much (in your viewpoint) that it is meaningless?


The US Constitution, as it was implied by the founding fathers was of a LIVING DOCUMENT. One that would change as the nation changed. An so far that has been true. In a hundred years, Americans will be dealing with problems we here in 2014 may not even be aware of yet. An people in that era (who have yet to be born yet) will have to debate the issue as deeply as Americans do on many social issues of today (i.e. Abortion, Guns, Internet, Healthcare, etc).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Put me firmly in the camp that I value the constitution far more than government that grows and tries to replace it.


Then you understand NOTHING about government. Just like with every other subject matter you stumble into on this forum. The US Government was DIRECTLY created by the US Constitution. For better or worst. Just like we Americans always get the President we deserve. We deserved to have a better one after that failed administration before President Obama's! The framers did not want the nation to behave like Europe at the time. Were the 'rich and powerful' were handled under one set of rules and the populace under another. That those in power hold a moral obligation to help the less fortunate out of life's problems. An that threatens to use their guns to push their ideology onto others is NOT for liberty but tyranny! Likewise, the framers understood that a government or the people within that do not know themselves accountable and responsible with power will easily abuse it. So 'yes', the framers would have joined up with Democrats in removing Republican/Tea Partiers from power without question.

Or are you going to B.S. to all of us here that you hold the people you vote into office (whether they win the election or not) to the same level (if not twice since your voting for them) of accountability and responsibility as the people you voted against? As you are often on here bashing Democrats and the President (who I think most of us can agree that you did not vote on) for petty things; yet give the Republican/Tea Party a blank check with which to do MORE bad stuff to the nation.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 3:21:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I can see why your pushing this B.S. to the forum, DS. The guy can have his view on the US Government the same as the next. I disagree with his view in this passage (the ending). The current US Government has legitimacy whether we as Americans like it or not. We the People....VOTED....for of this to come into existence. Not everyone voted on any one particular item, but those that voted got their voice heard; the winners of the votes, not the losers. An while Americans disagree or not on the Affordable Care Act, the point is....the US Voters....VOTED....to elected people into office that created and....VOTED....on the creation of the bill that was signed into law by a guy that Americans....VOTED....into the White House in 2008. The author does not seem to understand this most basic of American concepts as it relates to the US Constitution. Which baffles me since he obviously attended a number of higher educational institutions (hell, he's even worked at a few of them).


So, the whole shift (in the 60's) in the way government worked was or wasn't as the author describes?

Neat thing about writings, though is that they usually stay around longer than the authors. Even though Madison, Hamilton and Jay have long since passed, their arguments as to why the US Constitution should be ratified live on. I would absolutely, and without hesitation, completely agree with you on this point, if the author of the article had made his assertions based on first hand interviews with the Founders cited.

Leave it to you, though, to not actually answer any of the questions posed.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 3:27:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The founding fathers understood that as the country developed, the rules and ideas of founding principles would be better understood. They believed future generations would know best on how to deal with future problems. This is a fatal flaw in my conservative thinks right now. That the US Constitution (the original document) is set in stone and can never be changed.


Proof you have no real idea what a conservative thinks. The Founders did set in place the manner in which the US Constitution was to be changed. I know of no conservative that doesn't know that.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 3:52:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Something else written by the author here:
quote:

In summary, Congress has become a
major player in the administrative state
precisely by surrendering its constitutional
purpose and ceasing to defend
limited government. As a result, the
administrative state has grown dramatically
since 1965, and it only continues
to defend and expand its turf. Political
opposition occasionally arises in the
White House or in Congress, but thus far
with little effect.

He seems to be portraying Congress as some sort independent entity, as if it's supposed to be untouched by politics and that their role to defend limited government is specifically defined and outlined.
The thing is, neither party defends limited government as a matter of ideology or based on Constitutional principles. Conservatives often claim to want "limited government," but only in the areas of taxes, social programs, and regulations on business and commerce. But when it comes to national defense, the intelligence community, and law enforcement apparatus, they reverse their principles and suddenly want an all-powerful central government. But I don't see how they can have it both ways. You can't advocate an all-powerful central government in one department and not expect it to apply to other departments too.
That's always been the fatal flaw for those who demand "limited government," since they don't really want limited government, not as a matter of ideology or principle, since they do not support that principle consistently across the board.


Therein lies the rub, though. While some see "limited" government in some areas and "unlimited" government in other areas, there can be an argument made that the "unlimited" parts of government can be those parts that have their authorities from the Constitution. Taxes will take care of themselves, and no one is really opposed to paying taxes for those things they see as right. While everyone has the right to his or her opinion as to what the US government is allowed to do, there is a test for that. If it's an authority granted by the US Constitution, and the US Government chooses to use that authority, it will have to be paid for by taxes, regardless of whether or not you want the Feds to be using their authority in that manner. So, as long as a person is accepting of the Fed's actions as Constitutionally authorized, that person will, generally, accept that taxes will have to be raised to pay for it. It's when the Government is seen as acting outside the authorities granted in the Constitution, that most people start to balk at paying taxes, or having their taxes raised.

quote:

I agree with the author's criticisms of Congress, although I would say the problems are within the major political parties which are also centralized with their national committees on top of their respective hierarchies. It should be no surprise that they operate the federal government in the same way they operate their own parties. On paper, Congress may have the most power, but as individual politicians, each member has the least power when compared to the bigger fish in Washington. Members of the House have to run for re-election every 2 years, so they're in the most vulnerable position, as politicians. The only ones with any sort of power are those with a lot of tenure, who have been in for 15-20+ years and become senior members on key committees.
It's really kind of astonishing that Congress is able to get anything done at all, what with 535 different personalities from different walks of life, different regions of the country, different political parties, different ideologies - and all of them ostensibly politically ambitious and savvy enough to get there in the first place, and no doubt with big egos and a puffed-up sense of self-importance, too.
I think that Congress could do a better job. I think just about everyone agrees on that, even Congress itself. But if Congress is doing a crappy job, what does that say about the people who elect them? If Congress is failing its Constitutional purpose (as the author sees it), then why shouldn't anyone expect the same from those portions of government which are unelected by the people?
We, the People, elect Congress. It's the one branch of government where the People have the most direct control, and this is what we do with it? These are the people we elect? If we can't do much with what little power we have to change our government, then not much is going to change.
We also elect the President, but that's just one person we elect to be in charge of the entire Executive Branch of government, but how can one person run that humongous organization all by himself? It might have been easier when government was smaller, but now, they need to have whole departments within the EOP just to help the President run the government.


Marini wrote:
    quote:

    In America, the administrative state traces its origins to the Progressive movement. Inspired by the theories of the German political philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Progressives like Woodrow Wilson believed that the erection of the modern state marked an “end of History,” a point at which there is no longer any need for conflict over fundamental principles. Politics at this point would give way to administration, and administration becomes the domain not of partisans, but of neutral and highly-trained experts.


That places the beginnings of the administrative state around 1920. It wasn't until 1965 or so, that Congress started to "join in the fun," and the administrative state really started to grow very quickly. The way I read it, up until the mid-1960's, Congress had resisted the Administrative State and was more aligned with "limited government."

Even though Joether doesn't get it, Marini's example of Obamacare is spot on. The Administrative State removes things from the shoulders of Congress, so to insulate it from the voters, to an extent. Unelected officials are starting to call the shots. The EPA can make standards and rules that can have massive impacts on our daily lives, and we didn't elect them, so we can't get rid of them. We have so many Departments that are full of appointments that our elected officials are barely in control anymore.

This is what I think Marini meant with this article.




joether -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 4:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I can see why your pushing this B.S. to the forum, DS. The guy can have his view on the US Government the same as the next. I disagree with his view in this passage (the ending). The current US Government has legitimacy whether we as Americans like it or not. We the People....VOTED....for of this to come into existence. Not everyone voted on any one particular item, but those that voted got their voice heard; the winners of the votes, not the losers. An while Americans disagree or not on the Affordable Care Act, the point is....the US Voters....VOTED....to elected people into office that created and....VOTED....on the creation of the bill that was signed into law by a guy that Americans....VOTED....into the White House in 2008. The author does not seem to understand this most basic of American concepts as it relates to the US Constitution. Which baffles me since he obviously attended a number of higher educational institutions (hell, he's even worked at a few of them).

So, the whole shift (in the 60's) in the way government worked was or wasn't as the author describes?

Neat thing about writings, though is that they usually stay around longer than the authors. Even though Madison, Hamilton and Jay have long since passed, their arguments as to why the US Constitution should be ratified live on. I would absolutely, and without hesitation, completely agree with you on this point, if the author of the article had made his assertions based on first hand interviews with the Founders cited.

Leave it to you, though, to not actually answer any of the questions posed.


I answered your question. You just can not be mature enough to HANDLE the answer. You wanted an answer that fit snuggly into your point of view. If you came to this forum truly expecting this result, your an idiot. However, knowing you would obtain differing answers as your original motivation in creation of thread would be something else.....a discussion!

There are plenty of people that have their own views on how the 1960's played out on a multitude of viewpoints. Which one is the correct view and idea? Beyond the actual facts there is opinion. Piles of it. Some of it is good and some of it is bad. The author is pushing an idea that this 'administrative state' came into being through wizardry or magic. An can not accept the notion that....WE THE PEOPLE....VOTED. He is looking at events with a fine tooth comb while discarding EVERYTHING that happen before, during and after those concepts. Like studying them in a vacuum. Unfortunately those events did not, nor could not take place in a vacuum. Multitudes of others events had to take place before, during and after for those events to take place.

Its metaphorically like steaming a Maine Lobster. If you take a lobster and throw it into a pot of boiling water, what happens? The critter climbs out. Event and effect, right? Now, place that lobster in the freezer for about thirty minutes...THEN....throw him into the pot of boiling water and what happens? He gets cooks and becomes a good meal for someone! The point is that a set of events took place BETWEEN picking up the lobster and it being dropped into the pot. Simpletons on here will think its just 'freezing' that took place. What happens to a animal placed in an environment it can not normal survive? That's biology. What happens when liquids inside the animal begin to freeze? That's chemistry. Bio-chem when you understand the liquids are to a living thing.

Place in a different way (same metaphor): World War 2 was not won because of D-Day, The Battle of the Bulge, Defending Midway Island and dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese cities. There is a huge depth of events that went on between 1939 and 1945 that determined the outcome of the final event.

There are a heck of a lot of events that have taken place in each decade. An each of those form into the final calculation of this 'administrative state' the author pushes. He either can not nor will not explain all those events told place that shaped events (the second version of the lobster). Rather the view that a handful of major events are the ONLY things that created the 'administrative state'

Another metaphor is that many conservatives for example are against the Theory of Climate Change. They either do not understand or wish to see the evidence modern science understands of the theory. That when sciences explain the world's sea level would increase by a few inches is completely lost on the uneducated. What would a few inches change of an ocean that is several thousand feet deep? The answer is complicated since it comes from a multitude of ideas and thoughts based upon evidence gathered over decades. Conservatives time and again, either ignore or leave out that understanding since it doesn't support their limited view that if Climcate Change was ACUTALLY taking place, it would be due to 2-5 major, easily seen and observed events....NOT....hundreds of thousands of small events.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 4:17:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I can see why your pushing this B.S. to the forum, DS. The guy can have his view on the US Government the same as the next. I disagree with his view in this passage (the ending). The current US Government has legitimacy whether we as Americans like it or not. We the People....VOTED....for of this to come into existence. Not everyone voted on any one particular item, but those that voted got their voice heard; the winners of the votes, not the losers. An while Americans disagree or not on the Affordable Care Act, the point is....the US Voters....VOTED....to elected people into office that created and....VOTED....on the creation of the bill that was signed into law by a guy that Americans....VOTED....into the White House in 2008. The author does not seem to understand this most basic of American concepts as it relates to the US Constitution. Which baffles me since he obviously attended a number of higher educational institutions (hell, he's even worked at a few of them).

So, the whole shift (in the 60's) in the way government worked was or wasn't as the author describes?
Neat thing about writings, though is that they usually stay around longer than the authors. Even though Madison, Hamilton and Jay have long since passed, their arguments as to why the US Constitution should be ratified live on. I would absolutely, and without hesitation, completely agree with you on this point, if the author of the article had made his assertions based on first hand interviews with the Founders cited.
Leave it to you, though, to not actually answer any of the questions posed.

I answered your question. You just can not be mature enough to HANDLE the answer. You wanted an answer that fit snuggly into your point of view. If you came to this forum truly expecting this result, your an idiot. However, knowing you would obtain differing answers as your original motivation in creation of thread would be something else.....a discussion!
There are plenty of people that have their own views on how the 1960's played out on a multitude of viewpoints. Which one is the correct view and idea? Beyond the actual facts there is opinion. Piles of it. Some of it is good and some of it is bad. The author is pushing an idea that this 'administrative state' came into being through wizardry or magic. An can not accept the notion that....WE THE PEOPLE....VOTED. He is looking at events with a fine tooth comb while discarding EVERYTHING that happen before, during and after those concepts. Like studying them in a vacuum. Unfortunately those events did not, nor could not take place in a vacuum. Multitudes of others events had to take place before, during and after for those events to take place.
Its metaphorically like steaming a Maine Lobster. If you take a lobster and throw it into a pot of boiling water, what happens? The critter climbs out. Event and effect, right? Now, place that lobster in the freezer for about thirty minutes...THEN....throw him into the pot of boiling water and what happens? He gets cooks and becomes a good meal for someone! The point is that a set of events took place BETWEEN picking up the lobster and it being dropped into the pot. Simpletons on here will think its just 'freezing' that took place. What happens to a animal placed in an environment it can not normal survive? That's biology. What happens when liquids inside the animal begin to freeze? That's chemistry. Bio-chem when you understand the liquids are to a living thing.
Place in a different way (same metaphor): World War 2 was not won because of D-Day, The Battle of the Bulge, Defending Midway Island and dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese cities. There is a huge depth of events that went on between 1939 and 1945 that determined the outcome of the final event.
There are a heck of a lot of events that have taken place in each decade. An each of those form into the final calculation of this 'administrative state' the author pushes. He either can not nor will not explain all those events told place that shaped events (the second version of the lobster). Rather the view that a handful of major events are the ONLY things that created the 'administrative state'
Another metaphor is that many conservatives for example are against the Theory of Climate Change. They either do not understand or wish to see the evidence modern science understands of the theory. That when sciences explain the world's sea level would increase by a few inches is completely lost on the uneducated. What would a few inches change of an ocean that is several thousand feet deep? The answer is complicated since it comes from a multitude of ideas and thoughts based upon evidence gathered over decades. Conservatives time and again, either ignore or leave out that understanding since it doesn't support their limited view that if Climcate Change was ACUTALLY taking place, it would be due to 2-5 major, easily seen and observed events....NOT....hundreds of thousands of small events.


Technically, you responded to the questions, but you most certainly did not answer any-fucking-thing.






joether -> RE: Budget Battles and the Growth of the Administrative State (12/2/2013 4:47:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Something else written by the author here:
quote:

In summary, Congress has become a
major player in the administrative state
precisely by surrendering its constitutional
purpose and ceasing to defend
limited government. As a result, the
administrative state has grown dramatically
since 1965, and it only continues
to defend and expand its turf. Political
opposition occasionally arises in the
White House or in Congress, but thus far
with little effect.

He seems to be portraying Congress as some sort independent entity, as if it's supposed to be untouched by politics and that their role to defend limited government is specifically defined and outlined.
The thing is, neither party defends limited government as a matter of ideology or based on Constitutional principles. Conservatives often claim to want "limited government," but only in the areas of taxes, social programs, and regulations on business and commerce. But when it comes to national defense, the intelligence community, and law enforcement apparatus, they reverse their principles and suddenly want an all-powerful central government. But I don't see how they can have it both ways. You can't advocate an all-powerful central government in one department and not expect it to apply to other departments too.
That's always been the fatal flaw for those who demand "limited government," since they don't really want limited government, not as a matter of ideology or principle, since they do not support that principle consistently across the board.


Therein lies the rub, though. While some see "limited" government in some areas and "unlimited" government in other areas, there can be an argument made that the "unlimited" parts of government can be those parts that have their authorities from the Constitution. Taxes will take care of themselves, and no one is really opposed to paying taxes for those things they see as right. While everyone has the right to his or her opinion as to what the US government is allowed to do, there is a test for that. If it's an authority granted by the US Constitution, and the US Government chooses to use that authority, it will have to be paid for by taxes, regardless of whether or not you want the Feds to be using their authority in that manner. So, as long as a person is accepting of the Fed's actions as Constitutionally authorized, that person will, generally, accept that taxes will have to be raised to pay for it. It's when the Government is seen as acting outside the authorities granted in the Constitution, that most people start to balk at paying taxes, or having their taxes raised.


You just justified 'Big Government'. EVERY PERSON that I have ever met, that states they are for limited government is REALLY in favor of big government. I just ask them a few questions based on their defining of 'limited government'. In each example, it doesn't take long before they are arguing in favor of a big government (most of them don't realize it until I point it out). Two other points in your post here:

1 ) No one person can dictate what the US Government does with money collected. That would be well outside of the 'US Constitution'. An yet, you here are demanding the US Government do what you demand it to do, while demanding it hold true to the US Constitution. You can have it both ways.

2 ) There are concepts of America that have become part of the US Constitution but were not specifically entered into said document. I can make an argument that 'Healthcare' for all Americans is constitutional just as others on here would argue that 'semi-automatic weapons that are rifled' should be accessible by common citizens. Yet neither are specifically defined in the US Constitution. Nor were they concepts the original framers had given though to: Healthcare was unrealistic in those days and 'rifled' and 'semi-automatic' guns had not be invented. Giving women the right to vote was not in the framer's viewpoint when the document was created, yet its constitutional now.

You, DesideriScuri, are part of this government. 'Big' or 'limited' are simply subjective viewpoints. When you vote, you are part of that government the framers had envisioned. An its the votes whether good or bad over decades that dictate events. Major events have taken place in America. But are those events what defines America right now? Or the hundreds of millions if not hundreds of billions of actions that took place leading up, during, and after those events that define America? Your 'limited government' is simply a narrow sliced view of the whole of America.





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