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Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 5:59:39 AM

AaNiMaLl

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Joined: 4/4/2013
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More than I like to admit, my need for dominance stems from a selfish 'evil' in me that is linked to hate. It manifests itself through things such as destruction, chaos and pleasure through pain. However, rather than making it a negative thing, I link the hate and love together. So that we both grow through sharing and embracing a spectrum of emotions. I think that this is healthy from a psychological perspective because it is combating repression and creating a more honest relationship. ...and transparent relationship because through it we know what the other person is.

I know quite clearly what it is to be dominant because I have a first person perspective. However, I ask my girlfriend if her submission is ever driven by hate and she says that it is not at all. And I believe her because I can see it in her eyes. But a part of me wonders, even at a subconscious level, can submission be driven by hate? Self hate and hate for others. Like the need to destroy yourself because you hate yourself. But more complicated, to feel justified in hating the other person. To feel that because they abuse you, then you have the right to vent your own form of abuse back at them. That is, for a submissive to want to have a reason to hate. And maybe this is linked to the notion that humans are constantly seeking to maintain a level of exciting stimulation like emotional homeostasis. Do we need to fk things up? Maybe none of us want things perfect.

Hopefully, my question is clear. I promise to elaborate if someone needs more information. I am interested in your thoughts. Thank you for any replies.

Post #: 1

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 8:26:52 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
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From: Northern New Jersey
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I don't think any part of a relationship that stems from hate is healthy in any way.

Rather than trying to find out if submissives desires stem from hate as well, you should examine why it does for you.

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 2

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 8:59:09 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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I agree with LL, relationships that stem from hate are not healthy.

At the bottom of all hate is fear. You need to ask yourself what you're afraid of.

_____________________________

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Post #: 3

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 9:30:11 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl
More than I like to admit, my need for dominance stems from a selfish 'evil' in me that is linked to hate. It manifests itself through things such as destruction, chaos and pleasure through pain. However, rather than making it a negative thing, I link the hate and love together.

Master Fire, who used to post here, once said something very similar, though better, if you don't mind my saying so. She's quite the phrasemaker.

Her claim was along the lines of BDSM being a modern evolution and improvement over primitive ways of dealing. That we can now take biological survival imperatives like aggression and a desire to hunt, and channel them into practices that bring acceptance and pleasure to others.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 4

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 9:56:21 AM

SoulAlloy

Posts: 2106
Joined: 8/23/2009
From: Preston, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl

But a part of me wonders, even at a subconscious level, can submission be driven by hate? Self hate and hate for others. Like the need to destroy yourself because you hate yourself. But more complicated, to feel justified in hating the other person. To feel that because they abuse you, then you have the right to vent your own form of abuse back at them. That is, for a submissive to want to have a reason to hate. And maybe this is linked to the notion that humans are constantly seeking to maintain a level of exciting stimulation like emotional homeostasis. Do we need to fk things up? Maybe none of us want things perfect.

I have self destructive tendencies that manifest when my depression strikes, I refuse to play then because I will not respect my own limits, and have in the past wished for harm and even death partway through a scene. That I see as a form of self-loathing and hate, and not a nice energy for me to play with, and a selfish one to subject a partner to.

That said, I do sometimes get quite feral and animalistic, more primal, biting scratching and being rather rough, overcome by passions and lust. When submitting, my primary focus begins with devotion and develops from there.

_____________________________

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(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 5

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 1:05:41 PM

orgasmdenial12

Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
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No, my submission stems from a love of awesome sex and all things hot. It's not about hate - it's very definitely about love and desire.

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 6

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 3:33:14 PM

peppermint

Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
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If I hate myself I need to get some counseling.

If I hate the person I am having a relationship with I need to get some counseling.

If my relationship is abusive in any way I need to get some counseling.

I agree with LL. None of these things leads to a healthy relationship.

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Post #: 7

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 4:18:25 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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I don't hate myself. I don't drive my submission or my life by hate. I would not want to be around anyone who does things through hate. It's ugly and nasty. There is absolutely nothing good about it imo.

My submission does not destroy me. My life is not fucked up. My life is actually just the opposite. I have a wonderful Master and we help each other grow. We love one another and if hate ever came into play for us, I think we both would be thinking one of us needs to see a therapist and our relationship would not last.

Not quite sure why you think submission destroys someone or that we all are into bdsm so we can fuck up our lives. I personally think you should not be practicing bdsm. I would fear you are going to hurt yourself or someone else both emotionally and physically.

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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Post #: 8

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 6:06:56 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Nope, I wouldn't submit to someone I hated, someone who hated me.

And I don't see what we do as abuse. It's just plain clean fun.

More than that, I'd see this as a red flag and run from anyone who had your motives.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 12/2/2013 6:09:19 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 6:45:04 PM

Spiritedsub2

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-fr

OP is the same guy who posted this:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4563959/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4563959

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Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 10

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 6:48:30 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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And puts up a female avatar. Which is the kiss of death in getting a woman to respond to him.
Because anybody who posts pictures of women without their permission is certainly trustworthy re posting nude pictures of his next all over the net after they break up.

And if you believe that, I have a bridge for sale.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 12/2/2013 6:49:35 PM >

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

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Post #: 11

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 8:57:11 PM

obedientnwilling

Posts: 35
Joined: 9/19/2013
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Beware of ever loving too deeply or recklessly, for love is never very far from hate. When the well of hate has run dry, you are left with a stonewall, broken dreams, and some wistful memories of what once was. Let love be guided by the temperance of reason, the moderation of wisdom, and the restraint of morality. On these sturdy rails, she can travel safely through the night, her sister quietly standing guard.

But you are making an error, here. I like being "submissive" in relationships. For me, it is quite ideal. I don't have to feel any negativity about myself for this to be so.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 12

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 9:10:00 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl
Like the need to destroy yourself because you hate yourself.

I don't think that's normal and if it was the case I think that person would need counciling and to stay far away from bdsm.

P.S. I don't understand what you meant about hate in your dominance would you care to elaborate?

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 13

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/2/2013 9:12:45 PM

lilmissdefiant

Posts: 666
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I also see where the other posters are coming from
I have a strong urge that is spurred on from the hatred I have from those I used to call my family. I have no family and very few friends, (if I could even call them that)
Some of us live in a world of darkness and hatred, for ourselves and those around us. It is the way we are wired, I have tried nurmerous types of therapy but nothing has worked. I am programmed for the way I am, Hating something yet embracing it because it brings us a strange sense of positivity is a hard thing to do. As Obedientnwilling said at the end of the day we are left with broken dreams and a wistful rememberance of what once was.
Digging ones self out of a spiral of depression is extremely hard. I have never taken the easy route. I am a self-sabator, I know it but I can't help it. I have been in so many toxic and dangerous relationships (vanilla and BDSM based).
For me, embracing the hate and the darkness that rules my world, is my sense of homostasis. I do not embrace positivity or happiness because in my mind I know it will not last, because past experiences have shown otherwise.
Its not like I don't try to find happiness, I am just aware that it will not last.
I am toxic, I am well aware of how my presence affects people. So I chose to shut myself out, I reject human contact because I feel like I will, in some way, poison them. I do not wish my darkness and inner evil to rub off on anyone else. A bit off topic but revealing the way I am is cathargic.

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(in reply to obedientnwilling)

Post #: 14

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/3/2013 10:46:49 PM

AaNiMaLl

Posts: 78
Joined: 4/4/2013
Status: offline

I did not say that I hate my girlfriend during sex. I just think that it is possible to explore this emotion through bdsm. Sometimes, I can pull up a more aggressive hateful energy and sometimes it is more passive loving.

In terms of the need to destroy, this concept is very old and laced through Jung and a lot of philosophy. If you cannot understand the need to destroy then ask yourself, why do people commit suicide? It seems pretty basic to me. Everyone has this capacity in them. In fact, there is a psychological test that tests people's honesty. In it, it asks, have you ever thought about committing suicide? If you tick 'no' then you will be labelled as dishonest because everyone has.

Also, I think that those who are too afraid to confront any hate that they have inside themselves, have a lot akin to Christians. Judgemental, superstitious and apathetic about their world. ...and also, much more prone to depression and suicide / self harm. So just because I am willing to talk about my hate does not make me psychologically disturbed.

I had a talk to my best friend about this. We talked about love as a means and as an end in itself. The question for me is, is it possible to love continuously without any self interest? To simply love as a means and ends in itself without any selfish regard. When people submit, is there any selfish motive for them? Or are they acting out of total interest for the other person. Is the worship all that they need? ...Because my girlfriend would just say that she loves unconditionally without any self interest. But I think that is too simple and I don't know if I believe her. I know that she believes herself but maybe subconsciously, there is something more going on.

I have known girls in the past who have definitely wanted more than just bdsm. They have wanted to be abused. And abused so that they can vent abuse back. I haven't really questioned if it was healthy or not, but I think that as long as it is done with clear communication and understanding then it is ok. As long as they don't decide to show their bruises to their friends :), which happened to me.

My other friend wrote his PhD psychology thesis on this actually. He focussed on heavy metal music, the community it creates and how this can be used therapeutically. And no matter what people say, especially the really heavy stuff, heavy metal is hate driven. And metallers are the best people that I know. Metal is our counselling.

(in reply to lilmissdefiant)

Post #: 15

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/4/2013 5:44:42 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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I like to say that there are two parts of kink: in the bedroom and outside of it. Outside the bedroom, hate is not a good thing in a relationship.

Inside the bedroom - there IS a desire to hurt. It's called sadism. I find it fascinating to hurt a woman who wants and needs to be hurt, to have that kind of control to give her what she wants and yet more, so that she's loving it and hating it at the same time.

_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Submission and Hate - 12/4/2013 6:07:50 AM

obedientnwilling

Posts: 35
Joined: 9/19/2013
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Oh, Norwegian black metal is a miracle-worker. However, most subs are not driven by self-loathing. Yes, I appreciate dark emotions, but I appreciate them for reasons outside my D/s life.

I tend to think that dominant partners, in D/s relationships, just find it easier to open themselves, emotionally, when they are in a position of control. A person who typically has difficulty opening up and showing affection might find himself gently caressing someone and speaking to that person softly and sincerely when in a physically manifest position of control. My partner is a person who spent years working in a position in which he often had to hide his true emotions due to the intensely political and delicate nature of his position, and my "puppy" act helps him let down his guard.

I find that subs tend to have a similar sort of suppression. Usually, people I hear claiming to be subs seem to have an underlying need to feel authentic. They might feel, on some level, like they suffer from a phony exterior, and they seem to feel that somehow something more pure and genuine can be shown if that can somehow be "peeled away." This is really just pure subjective speculation, though.

The gist of it is that I view D/s as a deeply affectionate form of bonding between loving partners. It is very romantic to me. I just don't see "hate," as you are thinking of it, as anymore of a factor in D/s relationships than in any other kind of loving relationship.

< Message edited by obedientnwilling -- 12/4/2013 6:35:12 AM >

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 17

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/4/2013 6:12:39 AM

Toysinbabeland

Posts: 1693
Joined: 3/4/2012
From: the other end of Cx's leash
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obedientnwilling

Beware of ever loving too deeply or recklessly, for love is never very far from hate. When the well of hate has run dry, you are left with a stonewall, broken dreams, and some wistful memories of what once was. Let love be guided by the temperance of reason, the moderation of wisdom, and the restraint of morality. On these sturdy rails, she can travel safely through the night, her sister quietly standing guard.

Speechless at the eloquence, my gentle snark could never shine a candle to this statement. Well said.

(in reply to obedientnwilling)

Post #: 18

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/4/2013 7:43:17 AM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl
I have known girls in the past who have definitely wanted more than just bdsm. They have wanted to be abused. And abused so that they can vent abuse back. I haven't really questioned if it was healthy or not

Maybe because you know it's not healthy?

Somebody that wants to be abused feels that way because they don't think they deserve better and/or they're so used to being traumatized by others that they don't know what a healthy relationship is. What they need is to break that cycle and learn to have self-esteem and a healthy relationship, not to have somebody abuse them more.

(in reply to AaNiMaLl)

Post #: 19

RE: Submission and Hate - 12/4/2013 1:59:10 PM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

BDSM is not a substitute for therapy or a place to hide for the emotionally disturbed. People who use it that way, regardless of role, do not have my respect. I am going to give you the same advice I would give to any vanilla friend who has emotional/psychological issues - please seek professional help to deal with whatever ails you. Be well.

_____________________________

~ ftp

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Post #: 20

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