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pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 9:59:28 AM

lovethyself

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I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a new play partner. We were talking about pain and imact play, and he was asking me what I get out of the pain, how it makes me feel, what I'm looking for in it, etc. After we played, while we cuddled and talked some more, the conversation turned back to pain and what we did and how it does/doesn't compare to the cutting I did to myself as a teenager. His answer to the question of the fundamental difference was that cutting myself was unhealthy, and what we did wasn't.

It got me thinking. Emotionally I understand that the two things are different at the fundamental level for me. But some of the things that I chase are the same as what I was seeking back then. The pain was a way to shut my brain off and throw me mentally completely into the here and now. The immediacy of the physical pain gave me a sort of peace that freed me from the cycle of thoughts that sometimes became overwhelming. Now, it's also coupled with pleasure and joy at the shared exerience, where before it was a desperate escape from the sometimes toxic thoughts. But at it's core, I'm still looking for (and finding) that peace in my head that shuts out the rest of the world and it's concerns, the short mental vacation.

So, what is it that makes what we do healthy? What makes it different from unhealthy self-harm? if you incorporate pain into your play for a different reason, what is your reason?

Btw, I'm not questioning if what we did yesterday was healthy or if what I did as a teenager wasn't. That part is obvious to me. I just can't seem to find a reason why for what I know in my gut is true.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 10:25:20 AM

RedMagic1

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What we do isn't always healthy. It depends on the people much more than the act. Ritual scarification might be an example of "healthy cutting" in some cultures and subcultures.

I remember the first time a woman asked me to punch her in the stomach. I was like, "Really? I can do that?" It was as though a whole new world opened up, even though I'd been spanking butts for years. Not in vanilla anymore. Up until that moment, I had never associated a punch with anything nice.

Hell, you can kiss someone on the lips for unhealthy reasons.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 10:35:46 AM

DesFIP

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I think what you've described is the difference between running from something and running to.

You used to run away from toxic thoughts. Whereas now you run to pleasure and joy. The method may be the same but the goal, the intent is entirely different.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 12:20:43 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I think what you've described is the difference between running from something and running to.

You used to run away from toxic thoughts. Whereas now you run to pleasure and joy. The method may be the same but the goal, the intent is entirely different.

Completely agree. Escaping? Or embracing? That is the question that I seek the answer for before I will play with some.

Now I think sometimes we take a break from those challenging and negative issues from to to time. This is not to be confused with trying to escape or run away from them. In some ways the break is more cleaning the slate so one can actually face them.

A phrase that Kyra has used in the past and she first came to from her therapy years ago.

'Pushed by pain or pulled by purpose'

I can't say that being pushed into actions or decisions because of the emotional pain ones is feeling particularly wise or even healthy. But when we are motivated with purpose and goals we are striving to achieve it tends to be alittle more constructive from my perspective.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 12:24:58 PM

lovethyself

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Red, I get what you're saying. I'm working from the supposition that it is possible to play with pain in a healthy way. My question was more about how you tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy. What makes act A healthy and act B unhealthy?

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 1:35:27 PM

AthenaSurrenders

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For me, act A comes from a place of love, and act B came from a place of self loathing.

Though I will admit to using both as a coping mechanism at times.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 1:58:07 PM

MariaB

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Self cutting/harming is about working through personal issues. I don't believe all self harm is about self loathing, just as I don't believe all BDSM is about love. I don’t believe BDSM is an expression of self harm. Self harm is solitary, BDSM play is usually collaborative.

Enjoying masochistic play with a dominant is about seeking pleasure. It may even be a selfish pleasure. The difference is the intention behind the act.
Even if it does sometimes cross over or relate in some way, so what? There are bound to be some correlations.... adrenalin, endorphins, that feeling of relief but I doubt that's what led you hear. We will always make a connection with what we know, our brains are programmed to do that!

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 2:06:13 PM

kalikshama

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It feels different when I am having sex (or whatever) to self-medicate versus when it's a healthy expression of my pleasure drive. "Gotta have it" twitches feel very different from "want to have it, nom nom nom." I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's like "I'll die if I don't have this" vs. "this is heaven."

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 4:50:20 PM

NullHypothesis

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From a psychology/counseling perspective, "unhealthy" is anything that impacts our lives in a negative manner.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 5:32:07 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself

Red, I get what you're saying. I'm working from the supposition that it is possible to play with pain in a healthy way. My question was more about how you tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy. What makes act A healthy and act B unhealthy?

What's your underlying motivation?

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/9/2013 5:39:26 PM

Missokyst

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What makes it healthy or unhealthy is how you view it. If you are a cutter you probably felt shame and loathing. When someone beats your ass you likely felt aroused.
I often felt self loathing before cutting and relief after. As a maso I have sometimes felt anticipation followed by relief.
The end result in both cases was relief. But in the "shared" experience much much more acceptance than in the former.
Having someone back up your need for pain is always going to be more acceptable. Most people need that reinforcement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself

Red, I get what you're saying. I'm working from the supposition that it is possible to play with pain in a healthy way. My question was more about how you tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy. What makes act A healthy and act B unhealthy?

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/10/2013 6:06:42 AM

lovethyself

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

What's your underlying motivation?

Peace, relief, pleasure, shared connection, testing my limits and endurance, acceptance, joy. Sometimes it's also as a symbolic release from guilt, but that's a different scene.

I love the responses people have shared. I guess it comes down to "does it feel right to me?" or perhaps "will I still be smiling from it days later?". I especially love KoM's quote from Kyra "pushed by pain, or pulled by pleasure". So simple and yet, sometimes so hard to see.

Thanks for your perspectives.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/10/2013 8:36:59 AM

sheisreeds

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For me it is all about context and intention.

I have a long history with PTSD and self harm, spent a good amount of time not being able to go anywhere without a razor blade. It was a HUGE problem for me. I was nervous about it when I was getting into BDSM since I had only been clean from SI for a few years.

I was of course very attracted to blood, severe injuries, etc. And wanted to be sure it came from the right place and that these things were done to heal not to relapse.

Initially I tried to stay away from marks, but I'm terrible at doing anything slow or easy. So I re-evaluated to stay away from intentional drawing of blood, cutting etc, until I was ready for it.

When I met my current partner I found a safe place to explore these aspects of play and within 3 months was experimenting with scalpels and needles, and within 6 months knife play was one of my primary forms.

Never once have I felt that the play was coming from the same place the self harm did.

I've also reached a place mentally where I am able to honor all of my scars, and I like adding new ones to the bunch when appropriate. Now my worst and best memories have a permanent record on my body, and at this point are almost even.

When I was cutting in the context of self injury the purpose was to destroy myself, it was driving anger, anxiety, and hatred inward.

When there is cutting/blood/etc involved in my BDSM play it comes from a place of love of my partner, love of myself, and his love for me.

And it is very not SSC of me to say but some of the scars that came from getting carried away, or were accidents are some of my favorites. They were times we took it farther, and they always brought us closer.

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RE: pain: healthy v. unhealthy drives - 12/11/2013 12:59:41 PM

orgasmdenial12

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If you're doing anything to 'escape' something else, then you have a problem, whether that's BDSM or drinking too much.

I used to cut as a teenager, although not much. I did it to release some of the emotional pain of being in a dysfunctional family. The difference for me is that cutting was about relieving unbearable mental and emotional and pressure; s&m is about doing really, really hot things to my body. It has everything to do with accessing nasty, hot, satisfying sex and nothing at all to do with escapism.

Whenever you rely on one thing to make another thing bearable, you are creating a crutch rather than dealing with the problem. I don't want to submit to someone just because I hate my life. I want to submit to someone because I love my life and I love it even more with them in it.

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