Cross honoring vets must come down... (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 3:43:32 AM)

quote:

Federal Judge: Mt. Soledad Cross Must Come Down

A cross atop Mount Soledad in California is an unconstitutional religious display on government land and must come down, a federal judge in San Diego ruled late Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Larry Burns ordered the cross, which honors veterans, must be removed within 90 days -- a decision that could result in the case being sent back to the U.S. Supreme Court. Burns immediately stayed his order pending an expected appeal.

The original lawsuit was filed in 2006 by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of the Jewish Veterans of the United States of American and several other Southern California residents.
Source


I am not sure how to look at this.

It appears from his ruling, that the Judge is not giving room for a compromise, the monument has to come down.

But I feel that something should be there, just not sure what.

Comments?



EdBowie -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 4:48:47 AM)

Make everyone in the military convert to Christianity? Problem solved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

Federal Judge: Mt. Soledad Cross Must Come Down

A cross atop Mount Soledad in California is an unconstitutional religious display on government land and must come down, a federal judge in San Diego ruled late Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Larry Burns ordered the cross, which honors veterans, must be removed within 90 days -- a decision that could result in the case being sent back to the U.S. Supreme Court. Burns immediately stayed his order pending an expected appeal.

The original lawsuit was filed in 2006 by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of the Jewish Veterans of the United States of American and several other Southern California residents.
Source


I am not sure how to look at this.

It appears from his ruling, that the Judge is not giving room for a compromise, the monument has to come down.

But I feel that something should be there, just not sure what.

Comments?




MsMJAY -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 5:29:36 AM)

To me its simple, let all other faiths erect their own monument too or take all religious monuments down. I recently read that Oklahoma is facing a civil liberties problem because a Satanic church and a Hindu church both want to place monuments on the OK state capital lawn next to the 10 commandments monument. That lawn is going to get pretty crowded if this keeps up. I think our forefathers had the right idea.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."



thishereboi -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 6:08:02 AM)

I think they should allow other religions to put up their own symbols to be fairly represented. As long as they are not offensive what difference does it make. And for those who just love to cry about others but don't have an actual symbol of their own, we can put up a big pacifier. Wouldn't want to leave anyone out.



subrob1967 -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 6:09:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

To me its simple, let all other faiths erect their own monument too or take all religious monuments down. I recently read that Oklahoma is facing a civil liberties problem because a Satanic church and a Hindu church both want to place monuments on the OK state capital lawn next to the 10 commandments monument. That lawn is going to get pretty crowded if this keeps up. I think our forefathers had the right idea.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."


You forgot the rest of the statement... "Or the free exercise thereof. "

Unless the state has forbidden other religions from displaying a monument, I think the Supremes should tell the judge and the whining bitches to go pound sand.



TheHeretic -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 6:27:40 AM)

Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar. Just do another fucking land swap with the VFW, the way they did with the last horribly offensive cross erected in memory of those who have died fighting for this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Memorial_Cross

quote:

Writing for the majority, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, "The goal of avoiding governmental endorsement [of religion] does not require eradication of all religious symbols in the public realm".



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 6:27:48 AM)

FR~

On religious grounds, I see the judge's point as it favours just a single faith.
As such, according to the racism laws, it could be classified as being illegal.
If the constitution says congress cannot make any laws in respect of establishment of a religion, then it must go in order to respect other religions.Either that, or it has to allow every religion the opportunity to put up their own monuments.

What's wrong with putting up some sort of monolith slab or a cleopatra's needle thingy for everyone?
That would stop it being just a single faith and also stop a myriad of monuments being erected.



TheHeretic -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 6:29:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."


You forgot the rest of the statement... "Or the free exercise thereof. "




Actually, it is, "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."



mnottertail -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 6:42:37 AM)

Yeah, I dont want folks putting up no cross for me.  They want to put a statue of Odin, or even Thor as a secondary up, then I am for it.



MsMJAY -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 7:08:22 AM)

Actually the Supreme Court denied a petition for certiorari last year. This case has been in and out of litigation since 1989 and the defenders of the cross have lost every time. They have tried selling the cross, buying the land it sits on, putting a proposition on the ballot, and offering to donate the cross to the government. According to the court rulings everything they tried would require the government to give preferential treatment to a religious sect. (BTW- the cross was being maintained by taxpayer dollars for years.) Since the Supreme Court refused to hear it last year its unlikely they will change their minds this year.

As for OK. I am looking forward to hearing their decision regarding allowing other religious monuments at the capital. I'm hoping they get a whole row of religious statues all lined up. As a Christian, I fully support the free exercise of religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

To me its simple, let all other faiths erect their own monument too or take all religious monuments down. I recently read that Oklahoma is facing a civil liberties problem because a Satanic church and a Hindu church both want to place monuments on the OK state capital lawn next to the 10 commandments monument. That lawn is going to get pretty crowded if this keeps up. I think our forefathers had the right idea.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."


You forgot the rest of the statement... "Or the free exercise thereof. "

Unless the state has forbidden other religions from displaying a monument, I think the Supremes should tell the judge and the whining bitches to go pound sand.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 8:47:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, I dont want folks putting up no cross for me.  They want to put a statue of Odin, or even Thor as a secondary up, then I am for it.

Loki, maybe. Odin or Thor...not even close.



truckinslave -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 8:50:36 AM)

Repeal the 14th amendment



mnottertail -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 8:54:27 AM)

Odin being the god of war and confusion is extremely appropos.  Thor, as host to the einherjar would work, but I think the god of mischief and fire would be way down the list in terms of idols.  Hell, even a cross as an idol would be better than Loki, methinks.  



jlf1961 -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 9:16:07 AM)

I want to be preserved and stuffed, with my middle finger raised and a shot glass in the other hand, to be moved to a point across the street from where ever Obama is living at the time.



mnottertail -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 9:18:56 AM)

You'll have to wear a cross.



RottenJohnny -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 9:36:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Odin being the god of war and confusion is extremely appropos.  Thor, as host to the einherjar would work, but I think the god of mischief and fire would be way down the list in terms of idols.  Hell, even a cross as an idol would be better than Loki, methinks.  

I guess it's a matter of perspective. But I'm not sure arguing to death on a website qualifies one for a ride with a Valkyrie. [:)]



DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 9:59:33 AM)

Since we're talking religious symbols, what about Boola-Boola the Rain God?
[sm=flying.gif]



OsideGirl -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 10:14:03 AM)

As a local let me tell you about Mt. Soledad.

First of all, they hold religious services at that cross. Every Easter there is a sunrise service and various services other times of the year. Since they are having ACTIVE Christian religious services, it negates their argument that it's a war memorial. Last I checked they didn't hold Easter services at the Iwo Jima Memorial.

Next, the portions that actually have the memorial plaques are the walls that encircle the cross. So, removing the cross wouldn't impact the war memorial at all.

[image]http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb283/sunshine92117/770483e0-e3cd-45fe-839f-cf3b66e28c3c_zps8956fbe2.jpg[/image]

The bottom line is that it's a giant symbol of Christianity, with Christian religious services held at the base of that giant symbol, that was labeled a war memorial by people trying to save the cross.

This is just the latest round of litigation for this park. I'm sure it will go higher in the court system. I'm sure it will continue to lose (like it always has) and it will give the people who support the cross more reasons to cry about how they're persecuted. [8|]



jlf1961 -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 10:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

As a local let me tell you about Mt. Soledad.

First of all, they hold religious services at that cross. Every Easter there is a sunrise service and various services other times of the year. Since they are having ACTIVE Christian religious services, it negates their argument that it's a war memorial. Last I checked they didn't hold Easter services at the Iwo Jima Memorial.

Next, the portions that actually have the memorial plaques are the walls that encircle the cross. So, removing the cross wouldn't impact the war memorial at all.

[image]http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb283/sunshine92117/770483e0-e3cd-45fe-839f-cf3b66e28c3c_zps8956fbe2.jpg[/image]

The bottom line is that it's a giant symbol of Christianity, with Christian religious services held at the base of that giant symbol, that was labeled a war memorial by people trying to save the cross.

This is just the latest round of litigation for this park. I'm sure it will go higher in the court system. I'm sure it will continue to lose (like it always has) and it will give the people who support the cross more reasons to cry about how they're persecuted. [8|]



I have noticed a lot of memorial parks with crosses at the gates, the local portion of the municipal cemetery dedicated to vets has an arch over the entrance with a cross.

Each year on memorial day, small wooden crosses are placed on the concrete square around the county courthouse to remind us of the veterans who died, with a few stars of David for the Jewish vets who died.

Lady liberty is depicted at the punch bowl, which is based on a Greek goddess.


There are religious services held on Easter at any number of military cemeteries around the country.

Moses and his law is depicted on the east side of the Supreme Court building.

Religious services are held every year at the Arizona memorial.

Now, there is a giant cross at a memorial (it was built and designed as a memorial) that has been there a number of years. Maybe there should have been an eternal flame, the god of war, I dont know.

But if you are going to bring up religious services held at national war memorials, sorry, it happens on a yearly basis at many of them.

As much as I see your point, and its validity, if any one person or group tries to stop those services, there is going to be one hell of a fight, and not in the courts.

If that cross has to come down, there are many small, veterans cemeteries on state, county or city property that are going to have to have gates redesigned.

Personally, I think a more fitting memorial to the fallen military would be a rifle, stuck in the ground by the bayonet with the helmet and a pair of dog tags hanging on the top of it.

That was how the temporary graves were marked before the advent of helicopter evacuation of the wounded and dead for graves registration.

But then that does not honor those navy guys...



thishereboi -> RE: Cross honoring vets must come down... (12/13/2013 11:06:28 AM)

So many crosses and so little time, but I am sure they will get to those eventually.



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