RE: Anotther school shooting. (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 12:33:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



As in "shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that.

As in: No gun control rule dims have tried to pass would have solved the school shootings .

As in: As there is no efficacy to the proposed "solutions" there is no reason to enact another comprehensive non-solution like dims have proposed in basically everything they touch.

2000 pages of obama care. 1000 pages of tarp. Pusing on 10,000 pages of air quality regulations. More than 17,000 pages of IRS regulations.

I hate it when anyone is killed. I hate it when the hungry aren't cared for.
But it is a lie that dims tell that it is governments responsibiilty. It is a personal responsibility of each of us - and one we cannot abrogate in favor of an inefficient, wasteful government.

Finally. We are endowed with freedom, if we can keep it. And what you view as a problem (gun violence) I view as

An unfortunate cost to ensure that our government will never have the power to do what the governments of china, the USSR, cambodia, ruanda, bosnia, egypt, Romania, Iraq, Iran and hundreds of other countries have done.

Rule with tyranny.

Is it flawless. No. No system instituted by man ever will be.






So yes, all the children that died this past year are an unfortunate cost for the right to bear arms.
some freedom




RottenJohnny -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 2:25:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
some freedom

Maybe it isn't pretty but it works for us.




jlf1961 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 3:01:35 PM)

Gee more than 3000 teens die from alcohol related accidents a year, I dont hear anyone crying for them.

But hey, alcohol is socially acceptable.




kdsub -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 3:04:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

"There is a 15 year old girl in critical condition after surgery, but....no body has mentioned her."

And yet a few pages back you were ridiculing me for mentioning her.


Not me...I demand an apology for false accusations...[:D]

Butch




EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 3:11:14 PM)

That quote had the name 'LucyLastic' on it.

I do apologize for not knowing that you two are the same poster, and I certainly won't make that mistake again.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

"There is a 15 year old girl in critical condition after surgery, but....no body has mentioned her."

And yet a few pages back you were ridiculing me for mentioning her.


Not me...I demand an apology for false accusations...[:D]

Butch






deathtothepixies -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 3:50:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


"shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that.




"shit" as in school shootings?

school shootings happen and nothing we do is going to change that.

I think you mean nothing you want to do is going to change that.

"shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that....... so no law has ever been past which changes anything? Government, supreme court, law makers, pressure groups, protesters, none of them have ever done anything that has prevented "shit happening"?

Just because we can't make the world perfect it doesn't mean we can't try to make it better, or are you perfectly happy with all the school shootings? Content with over 30,000 Americans dying every year?

People bitch about how culture needs to change, how kids need role models/ parents, how x boxes and movies etc glamorise violence all of that is probably true but it does not mean that your gun laws are working, it does not mean you can just wash your hands of any attempt to get guns out of everyday life.

I don't know what you should do but you but you have to do something, unless of course you are 100% happy with your phrase" "shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that" and 100% happy with school shootings and 30k bodies every year




PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 3:55:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gee more than 3000 teens die from alcohol related accidents a year, I dont hear anyone crying for them.



Don't they, your side of the Atlantic? Over here, booze-related accidents will lead to the law falling on guilty parties like a ton of bricks, especially if vehicles are involved. Drivers here frequently daren't drink anything at all before getting behind the wheel nowadays.




PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 4:00:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
some freedom

Maybe it isn't pretty but it works for us.


Though not those of that collective 'us' who've got shot, of course.

I think that if there's a general belief in the 'acceptable risk' of, for instance, the occasional shooting spree at schools . . . there's probably little point in talking about possible solutions, or even understanding of why it happens. The will just isn't there.






tj444 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 4:28:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out.

so according to this & the referenced articles/studies.. the schools are doing the wrong things.. If schools did the things detailed in this article/studies it would make schools better for all students in general, not just the few that could become potential shooters..

"The problem, the researchers say, is that the nation hasn't paid attention to actual research about how school shootings unfold.
School shooters don't "snap" or "go crazy." They have serious grievances, and they plan their attacks. Many felt bullied, persecuted, or injured by others. They engaged in behaviors that caused other students and adults to think they needed help. They showed difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. They told others about their plan. And they had access to weapons.
These patterns point to a different set of preventive measures. Instead of trying to put metal detectors at every door, which do little more than ensure that the operator of the metal detector gets shot first, schools need to do the more difficult work of creating schools where bullying is not allowed, where grievances are dealt with quickly, where students feel safe speaking up about a student they're concerned about, where students feeling suicidal have someone to talk with. And at home, guns need to be under lock and key.
Paying attention to the evidence- A landmark study in 2002 by the U.S. Secret Service and the U.S. Department of Education, examining the facts of 37 school shootings, identified patterns contradicting the public perception of a loner who "just snapped":
•Incidents of targeted violence at school are rarely sudden, impulsive acts.
•Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted, or injured by others prior to the attack.
•Most attackers engaged in some behavior, prior to the incident, that caused concern or indicated a need for help.
•Most attackers were known to have difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. Many had considered or attempted suicide.
•Most attackers did not threaten their targets directly prior to advancing the attack.
•There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engage in targeted school violence. Some come from good homes, some from bad. Some have good grades, some bad.
•Most attackers had access to and had used weapons prior to the attack.
•Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker’s idea or plan, and often other students were involved.

What steps should schools take?
The researchers urged that schools take the following steps:
•Assess the school’s emotional climate.
•Emphasize the importance of listening in schools.
•Adopt a strong, but caring stance against the code of silence.
•Prevent, and intervene in, cases of bullying.
•Involve all members of the school community in planning, creating and sustaining a school culture of safety and respect.
•Develop trusting relationships between each student and at least one adult at school.
•Create mechanisms for developing and sustaining safe school climates.
The researchers acknowledge that these steps are not a cure-all and will not prevent every incident. The Newtown shooter, for example, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, wasn't like the rest. He was an adult, rather than a current student at the school he attacked. But these preventive measures fit most of the cases."


http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/10/21851427-newtown-anniversary-us-schools-keep-trying-wrong-fixes-to-deter-school-shootings-experts-say?lite




lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 4:40:59 PM)

FR
Ya know, we have put forth a solution but you anti gun types thumb your noses. I won't get into all the long term solutions but in the short term we need more guns in the schools. Police or security guard patrols where feasible or the better more cost effective solution is teachers and administrators with concealed carry permits. With ongoing and specialized training. This alone would dramatically reduce the incidence of school shootings.

There are a few things that can be done to tweek gun laws and especially enforce certain laws already on the books. But when politicians start talking about bans on modern firearms or severe UK or Aussie type restrictions, or having to go through an act of Congress to buy or sell a gun, then it's unpalatable. That kind of draconian shit is just going to cause more problems, more shootings, more illegal guns and simply won't work.




kdsub -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 4:56:47 PM)

That's more like it. Just keep that in mind. Lucy Butch .... Sounds good to me.




sloguy02246 -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 5:06:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
some freedom

Maybe it isn't pretty but it works for us.



Which pretty much tells me that none of your kids were among those killed this past year.
Your empathy is underwhelming.




PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 5:13:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
FR
Ya know, we have put forth a solution but you anti gun types thumb your noses. I won't get into all the long term solutions but in the short term we need more guns in the schools. Police or security guard patrols where feasible or the better more cost effective solution is teachers and administrators with concealed carry permits. With ongoing and specialized training. This alone would dramatically reduce the incidence of school shootings.


What about those in the education system out there - are they in favour of these sorts of ideas?




lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 5:31:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
FR
Ya know, we have put forth a solution but you anti gun types thumb your noses. I won't get into all the long term solutions but in the short term we need more guns in the schools. Police or security guard patrols where feasible or the better more cost effective solution is teachers and administrators with concealed carry permits. With ongoing and specialized training. This alone would dramatically reduce the incidence of school shootings.


What about those in the education system out there - are they in favour of these sorts of ideas?


Good question, I'm sure in every public school there are a mix of those who appose or favor the idea. I'm not sure exactly but in rural areas I assume most would favor it.




EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 5:44:02 PM)

Nobody should hold their breath waiting for you to offer up proof that this general belief is what you are pretending it is..

Although they might want to laugh at the hypocrisy of you accusing others of not wanting to reduce these events as much as possible.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer



Though not those of that collective 'us' who've got shot, of course.

I think that if there's a general belief in the 'acceptable risk' of, for instance, the occasional shooting spree at schools . . . there's probably little point in talking about possible solutions, or even understanding of why it happens. The will just isn't there.








EdBowie -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 5:56:23 PM)

A concealed carry permit like George Zimmerman had? With maybe a whole 16 hours training, period?

And that's going to make someone with no radios, etc. better able to handle an active shooter than police officers with years on the job and weeks of specialized training on top of their service academy, and all the equipment?
When exactly would teachers acquire all the extra training? While they are sitting around doing nothing every week?

This was approved by politicians in a few places around the country, I would worry that any teacher who embraced it was the next tragedy waiting to happen.
It relies too heavily on the 'Magic of the Gun' mentality.


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
Ya know, we have put forth a solution but you anti gun types thumb your noses. I won't get into all the long term solutions but in the short term we need more guns in the schools. Police or security guard patrols where feasible or the better more cost effective solution is teachers and administrators with concealed carry permits. With ongoing and specialized training. This alone would dramatically reduce the incidence of school shootings.

There are a few things that can be done to tweek gun laws and especially enforce certain laws already on the books. But when politicians start talking about bans on modern firearms or severe UK or Aussie type restrictions, or having to go through an act of Congress to buy or sell a gun, then it's unpalatable. That kind of draconian shit is just going to cause more problems, more shootings, more illegal guns and simply won't work.





BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 7:25:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


"shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that.




"shit" as in school shootings?

school shootings happen and nothing we do is going to change that.

I think you mean nothing you want to do is going to change that.

"shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that....... so no law has ever been past which changes anything? Government, supreme court, law makers, pressure groups, protesters, none of them have ever done anything that has prevented "shit happening"?

Just because we can't make the world perfect it doesn't mean we can't try to make it better, or are you perfectly happy with all the school shootings? Content with over 30,000 Americans dying every year?

People bitch about how culture needs to change, how kids need role models/ parents, how x boxes and movies etc glamorise violence all of that is probably true but it does not mean that your gun laws are working, it does not mean you can just wash your hands of any attempt to get guns out of everyday life.

I don't know what you should do but you but you have to do something, unless of course you are 100% happy with your phrase" "shit happens in life" and nothing we do is going to change that" and 100% happy with school shootings and 30k bodies every year

a statement of fact that until we revitalize values and respect for life is not "bitching" it is reality.
I would think that someone bitching about guns when the problem is the lack of respect for the rights of others and for human life is the real problem are clinging to a useless but easy way out.




BamaD -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 7:27:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
FR
Ya know, we have put forth a solution but you anti gun types thumb your noses. I won't get into all the long term solutions but in the short term we need more guns in the schools. Police or security guard patrols where feasible or the better more cost effective solution is teachers and administrators with concealed carry permits. With ongoing and specialized training. This alone would dramatically reduce the incidence of school shootings.


What about those in the education system out there - are they in favour of these sorts of ideas?

They are too busy worrying about tenure.




lovmuffin -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 7:29:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

A concealed carry permit like George Zimmerman had? With maybe a whole 16 hours training, period?

And that's going to make someone with no radios, etc. better able to handle an active shooter than police officers with years on the job and weeks of specialized training on top of their service academy, and all the equipment?
When exactly would teachers acquire all the extra training? While they are sitting around doing nothing every week?

This was approved by politicians in a few places around the country, I would worry that any teacher who embraced it was the next tragedy waiting to happen.
It relies too heavily on the 'Magic of the Gun' mentality.


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR
Ya know, we have put forth a solution but you anti gun types thumb your noses. I won't get into all the long term solutions but in the short term we need more guns in the schools. Police or security guard patrols where feasible or the better more cost effective solution is teachers and administrators with concealed carry permits. With ongoing and specialized training. This alone would dramatically reduce the incidence of school shootings.

There are a few things that can be done to tweek gun laws and especially enforce certain laws already on the books. But when politicians start talking about bans on modern firearms or severe UK or Aussie type restrictions, or having to go through an act of Congress to buy or sell a gun, then it's unpalatable. That kind of draconian shit is just going to cause more problems, more shootings, more illegal guns and simply won't work.




Nothing's foolproof but it's certainly better than the magic of the gun free zones mentality. And yes, a concealed permit like Zimmerman had. I mean how many teachers do you really think are out there who are as dumb as Zimmy ? Certainly an armed teacher with 16 hours of training affords some level of protection. 3, 4, 7 or 8 teachers and that level of protection goes up. And I hope you noticed I said "ongoing and specialized training" beyond the permit requirement. There are plenty of experts who train intermediate and advanced armed combat and marksmanship. 3 - 8 or more teachers with advanced training and that level of protection goes way up. The NRA could even step up to the plate and help out with that.

I'm not sure why radios would be an advantage and what equipment are you talking about ? Out of all the specialized training police get, only part of it deals with gun fighting. And there's way too many police officers who merely qualify with their sidearms for the job and aren't particularly good marksmen. Far better to have an armed teacher right there than wait 5, 10, 15 or more minutes for a cop to arrive.

Far more tragic would be getting caught by an active shooter with your pants down holding nothing but your dick. I believe it was 2 or 3 of those teachers at Sandy Hook who tried running toward Lanza. As brave as that was, if they would have gone towards him firing their handgun then they could have mitigated the circumstances.





PeonForHer -> RE: Anotther school shooting. (12/20/2013 7:31:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Nobody should hold their breath waiting for you to offer up proof that this general belief is what you are pretending it is..

Although they might want to laugh at the hypocrisy of you accusing others of not wanting to reduce these events as much as possible.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer



Though not those of that collective 'us' who've got shot, of course.

I think that if there's a general belief in the 'acceptable risk' of, for instance, the occasional shooting spree at schools . . . there's probably little point in talking about possible solutions, or even understanding of why it happens. The will just isn't there.







Ed, you can't seem to follow even the basic sense of what I say in any post I make. In fact I've come to suspect that you can't even work out when it's me that's said a given thing, or somebody else (another non-American, I think). I'm sorry, but I really don't think there's any point in my talking to you.




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