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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 10:20:12 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		So restate your question so that it makes sense to us. Because I have no idea what you're really asking. You are very unclear.

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 10:37:28 AM   
Copper29


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Joined: 12/10/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

So restate your question so that it makes sense to us. Because I have no idea what you're really asking. You are very unclear.


Happily.

Allow me to extend our earlier analogy.

Person A: Wow, I really love food.
Person B: I really love food too!
Person A: No, you don't! I never see you talk about how much you eat. Eating is so good. Yum.
Person B: Well, I like to eat, but I haven't been very hungry lately. I mostly just wanted to look at pictures of food.
Person A: BUT THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS EATING.
Person B: What? I never said it was!
Person A: You're not really interested in food unless you like eating it!
Person B: I do like eating it! But sometimes I just want to look at pictures.
Person A: You must not really be interested in food at all. You'll never really experience food until you eat it.
Person B: Why do you think I'm not interested in food? I love food! I just like looking at pictures of food too. Can't I like both?
Person A: I guess. But looking at pictures is never going to be as good as eating food.
Person B: I didn't say... that it was? Could you please tell me why you think we're both not REALLY interested in food?
Person A: YOU JUST WANT MONEY FOR YOUR FOOD PHOTOGRAPHY BUSINESS.

Okay, maybe that last statement was a little unnecessary.

The real core questions I have here, I suppose, is why do you feel one BDSM experience invalidates another or that there is some sort of hierarchical outline of what makes "more real" and "less real" experiences? What makes up your personal hierarchy? Why do you feel that way?

Does that make more sense?


< Message edited by Copper29 -- 12/18/2013 10:38:10 AM >

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 10:44:53 AM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline 		It's all real. It's not all my cup of tea, but it's all real.

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 11:00:02 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		OP, you might be interested in this documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BizVx2Xdqs0

It's about Real Dolls, which might be the most lifelike "companion" dolls in the world at the moment. It's very well done. I found it a bit spooky, and a bit heart wrenching. The company owner is proud of his accomplishments. He's created a way for the unattractive and the broken to have a connection to something outside themselves, even if it's an inanimate object. And I think anyone, after seeing the interviews in the documentary, will agree that the the relationships are, on some level, real. At the same time, they are kinda fucked up.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 11:02:19 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29
...You seem to be coming from the point of view that I am trying to make all experiences one and the same. I am not. I am saying they are all different and all valid. That is the core of my argument. Yet others feel very passionately that certain kinds of experience are not valid, do not qualify. I want to know why. .....But just because you would not be happy with a different kind of experience, does that make it not "real"?

Here is a very simple example -

A pain slut wants to feel the extreme pain.
A heavy bondage/shubari sub needs to feel those ropes around them.
Someone wanting a hug after some exhilarating activity has to feel those arms around them.

For all of these things, and many others, it needs to be "real" otherwise the endorphins don't flow.
None of this can be done by yourself online.
It doesn't matter how good it is in your headspace, the body isn't feeling anything.

Online, cyber, or whatever, is nothing like the real thing.
I am saying the complete opposite - they are all different but NOT valid.

You specifically want to know why. Another example -
So... you're liking a bit of rough during sex because invariably it's a little painful and out of your control.
Instead of fucking you, I clout you round the head with a piece of 2x4.
I'm a sadist, I find that sexy. And you got your pain. So it's all the same. Right?
Fucking WRONG!

But... then we get to cyber.
Someone on the other end of a cam tells you to rape yourself with 4 guys because that's your scene play.
How the fuck can you do that and get the same result?? You can't.

And this is why online/cyber/phone is NOT "real" and won't ever get even close to real.
So yes, a completely different experience.
You might even enjoy it, maybe even a lot.
But, it's never "real" and won't ever be, no matter how hard you try to tell me it is.

Now imagine you've just got run over by a bulldozer.
How many bones you manage to break???  NONE!!
That's how fucking real it is.  PFFFFTTTT!!!!

That's enough traffic for your business trawl.


Edit for typos.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/18/2013 11:08:44 AM >

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 11:22:21 AM   
SorceressJ


Posts: 2968
Joined: 7/24/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

It's all real. It's not all my cup of tea, but it's all real.


This.

~ SJ


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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 12:06:56 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Great analogy with the food! I'm going to tell you why.

My diet these past couple of weeks has consisted of basically anything that doesn't require Me to chew. Can you live on stuff like protein shakes, yogurt, scrambled eggs, and soup? Yeah. Do I really consider it eating? Nope. Seeing pictures of a hamburger don't do a darn thing to fortify Me. I can't consume it and looking at it certainly doesn't allow Me to absorb any nutritional value. Believe Me when I say I have serious intentions to have a date with a hamburger in a couple of weeks when I can do more than just look at it.

As the old saying goes, "Life is a buffet and some poor bastards are starving to death."

Now, I'm not one to care much about what other people do. However, I am pretty big on the conjugation of the verb "do". It's action implied. When I say I'm engaging in BDSM, that's what I mean. I'm not fantasizing or anything else that doesn't imply action. It means I'm doing something. It's not the definition that has to work for anybody else. I know it works for Me.

By the way, I happen to be a military wife. I wasn't "less" married during those times in our marriage when My husband was deployed. However, it's really hard to convince Me that all the aspects were 'just as good' when he was half way around the world. There are so many things that you realize you don't have that you know it's not the same.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 12:08:14 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SorceressJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

It's all real. It's not all my cup of tea, but it's all real.


This.

~ SJ


Really???
So... I cam with someone and they want a spanking that I would give - if it were "real".
Does the sub on the other end receive what I would have given them?? Nope.
Do I get the feeling of satisfaction of spanking that ass as if it were real when, in reality, I'm just swooshing the paddle through thin air?? Nope.

Nope. It's NOT real. nowhere even close.



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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 12:14:14 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Nope. It's NOT real. nowhere even close.

Do you think LadyPact doesn't really love her husband when he's deployed?

You might want to back off a bit. Seriously. The word "relationship" has included more than just face-to-face relationships ever since the first letter was written.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 12:22:28 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		And what has "relationship" got to do with "real BDSM"??

LP already said herself, when her OH is deployed, many things aren't as real as when he's not.
That pretty much speaks for itself.

By not real, doesn't neccessarilly say the love is diminished - just that the actions aren't real.
I think you are tying too much together under the same umbrella.


ETA: since when did LP's personal life suddenly come into this debate??

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/18/2013 12:23:51 PM >

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 12:25:29 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Do you think LadyPact doesn't really love her husband when he's deployed?

You might want to back off a bit. Seriously. The word "relationship" has included more than just face-to-face relationships ever since the first letter was written.

The thing is, Red, in situations like that, it's all you have. You have nothing that includes a physical element. There's no sex, no intimacy, no physical touch. There's so much that is gone. A part of is it more like waiting than living.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 12:43:29 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
The thing is, Red, in situations like that, it's all you have. You have nothing that includes a physical element. There's no sex, no intimacy, no physical touch. There's so much that is gone. A part of is it more like waiting than living.


Yeah. So in some ways, it might be more real, because you're more aware of the value of what you do and don't have.

In person, face to face, is better. But it takes a really unaware person to say that all the couples in history who courted and fell in love through letters were doing it wrong, or fake. And you know some of those long distance couples engaged in loving D/s even if they didn't know the term. "Oh Reginald, I am proud to write that I read Pilgrims Progress cover to cover this week. I didn't want to, but it gave me such pleasure to do it anyway because you had commanded me so in your previous letter. When I finished, I felt flushed and girly, when I thought of how it would make you smile. Yours dutifully, Beth."

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 1:00:01 PM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		~FRing it~

"Real BDSM" is in the eye of the beholder, rather than a general consensus concept. It's very subjective and too open to personal interpretation. I'm not a fan of online BDSM and frankly think it's pointless and rather inane...FOR ME. But if Person X is down for it, then all that matters is that it is real for them and I can't look down on them for it at all.

What I derive from my "real BDSM" is something that I have discovered cannot be achieved by any means other than in person with my partner. It's just what I've found works best for me. And all that I can go with is what works best for me. That's my idea of "real BDSM" tailor made to fit me. Likewise, what works for you (the generic you) is going to be your tailor made to fit you idea of "real BDSM."

There is no universal concept of "real BDSM" in my honest opinion


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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 1:23:19 PM   
iaminigo


Posts: 77
Joined: 2/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29

The real core questions I have here, I suppose, is why do you feel one BDSM experience invalidates another or that there is some sort of hierarchical outline of what makes "more real" and "less real" experiences?


I don't accept your premise that one experience invalidates another.

However, in term of a more real / less real scale, most would equate that with the number of sensations being felt. So in person would be more real. Many exceptions noted. YMMV

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 1:26:17 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29



What for you, counts as "real" bdsm?


Activities which involves bondage, discipline or sadomasochism.


Bita nailed it.




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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 1:55:04 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Real BDSM to me is real time, as in not on cam and not virtual in any way.

Okay. Why do you feel that way? Are we not having a real conversation, despite it being online?

No, we are not. We are having a text exchange because there is no valid "we". We are just an avatar, not people. Our words may be valid but we aren't. If we were valid, we could have a real relationship. We can't have a real relationship online. When you figure out how to start a family, get pregnant, have and raise kids online, I will concede that online BDSM is real.



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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 2:34:46 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29



What for you, counts as "real" bdsm? What quantifies it? Why do you feel that your brand is the true version, while others are not?



My brand is not the true version..... No such thing as the true version mine or anyone else. My version is just mine not anyone elses. They can't have mine. They have their own version! They don't need or want mine and I don't need or want theirs. But sometimes their are similarities and sometimes their is not.

Mine version is not any better or superior than anyone else's. Nor is anyone else's version any better or superior than mine. But mine is the best for me! However, I am always working to make mine better and as such it evolves and grows. So what is real for me today is old news tomorrow.





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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 2:55:56 PM   
LittleGirlHeart


Posts: 1427
Joined: 4/4/2013
Status: offline 		For me "Real" is face to face person to person . not through a computer, or online sex role play, or night flirt sex phones. I won't tell anyone else how to enjoy their bdsm, but if any one wants to do bdsm stuff with me, that's the only way they're getting it.


I won't cam, i won't phone sex, i won't send pictures, zip zilch nada. in person face to face onlyl
quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29

What for you, counts as "real" bdsm? What quantifies it? Why do you feel that your brand is the true version, while others are not?

Discuss.



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'Cause where there's a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 3:01:22 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Copper29

In exploring the kink community at large and this forum specifically, I've run across many people who state that they are only interested in "real" bdsm experience, or that they are frustrated with the lack of a "real" experience. However, it seems to me that there is no real consensus on what exactly that experience is, much like eating "real" food or having "real" hobbies. Every person has a different and specific idea about what that means, and has different ideas about what does not qualify as as true bdsm.

This seems counteractive to me-- as if we were policing other's interests and kinks, as if one experience somehow invalidates another. What are we to gain from criticizing another's desire? Is it not "real" bdsm if they're new, or unsure about what they're doing? If they pay for it? If their hard limits are what someone else would consider vanilla?

What for you, counts as "real" bdsm? What quantifies it? Why do you feel that your brand is the true version, while others are not?

Discuss.

To me real happens live and in person.
Why?
Because last time I tried to fuck my monitor I cut the living crap out of the Diggler.

Buuuuuut, I also accept that,crazy as it may sound, my way,while obviously being the right and proper way (Cuz its mine-duh), is perhaps not the only way.
Thus, I would say that whatever two interacting parties determine is real for them is, well, real.

Reality, doods, it's in the eye of the beholder

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RE: "Real" BDSM - 12/18/2013 3:06:15 PM   
lilcracker


Posts: 243
Joined: 4/14/2012
Status: offline 		well since BDSM is physical (Bondage discipline sadism and masochism) I would consider real as in real time...not online. D/s...yeah that can be online and workable for some...and still be real because D/s is a lot more mental than physical.

I remember once years and years ago, I spoke to a man who met a woman online who claimed she could take it hard...loved it hard...no limits type of girl...they met real time...he said he smacked her upper thighs real hard through the clothes...she couldn't take it. Truthfully I have no idea if that really happened...but it's totally believable...because one can fantasize all they want about a particular kink and find it arousing but thinking and doing are two different things. Example....I love the thought of anal sex...but I dislike doing it for real and thankfully I only have to think about it.

So in answer to your question if one is new and never experienced how does he/she know that they will really like it....and honestly if you haven't done it...how does one know if they are really a masochist. And nah no one should be put down for not having experience nor being a newbie.

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