Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (Full Version)

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defiantbadgirl -> Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/20/2013 6:21:12 PM)

Since the woman was without oxygen long enough to be brain dead, wouldn't the fetus also be brain dead?

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/texas-father-barred-taking-pregnant-wife-off-life-200600388.html




Rule -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/20/2013 8:29:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Since the woman was without oxygen long enough to be brain dead, wouldn't the fetus also be brain dead?

Let's wait and see.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 5:45:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wanderingjew

If the State insists she be kept on life support, then the State should pay for it.


The state of Texas should also pay for all medical care for the baby if its born brain dead or severely disabled and not charge the father for child support if he signs away his rights. Since the state is forcing this, he should have the option of abdicating all responsibility.




tweakabelle -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 6:08:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Since the woman was without oxygen long enough to be brain dead, wouldn't the fetus also be brain dead?


This question is far too rational for this discussion.

These events are taking place in Texas, where discussion of anything that might possibly be related to a woman's right to control her own fertility ceased to have any connection with reality a long time ago. We now witness the eerie spectacle of the State keeping a pregnant woman in a vegetative state on life support against her stated wishes, the entire situation brought about by folks who rail against big government and state intrusion into their lives. Does their hypocrisy know no end?

I'm undecided whether this whole sorry episode is better described as sordid or macabre.





tj444 -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 7:10:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: wanderingjew

If the State insists she be kept on life support, then the State should pay for it.


The state of Texas should also pay for all medical care for the baby if its born brain dead or severely disabled and not charge the father for child support if he signs away his rights. Since the state is forcing this, he should have the option of abdicating all responsibility.

I would not count on that.. When the cops can pick you up for no real reason, then force you to have a blood test, cavity scans etc at a hospital in an attempt to find something (drugs) to charge you with.. then when they don't find anything the hospital sends you the bill.. you can pretty much expect that in this case the state/hospital will dump the cost of life support on the husband & family..

I wonder if he/her parents could have her moved to a hospital in another state so they could legally take her off life support.. I expect they would refuse to allow that also..




Moonhead -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 9:38:26 AM)

Of course they can't pull the plug on a braindead woman in Texas: those with an EEG flatline vote Republican, so the GOP needs all the braindead women they can get...




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 9:40:32 AM)

It's Texassistan - the closest analog to Sharia Law outside of the Middle East.
Can dress codes for women really be that far behind? Much like the head-to-toe outfits seen on Muslim women, a full covering of modest clothing would surely protect the women of TX from leering men who lack the self control needed to live in modern society. And, of course, they will need to add the requirement that a woman marry a man who rapes her so he can veto her decision to have an abortion and not have the child out of wedlock.

Yes, it all makes sense now. Smaller government now!




LafayetteLady -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 9:44:17 AM)

She is in her 18th week of pregnancy. Amnio can be performed to determine the health of the fetus. This means they will know whether it is brain dead, deformed, etc. due to the mother's condition.

Instead of fighting for the mother's right, they should fight to have the testing done. If the baby is brain dead, the mother's health become moot.




Moonhead -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 9:49:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69
Can dress codes for women really be that far behind?

Wasn't it one of the Texas counties that tried to ban low rider jeans and whale tails as being inappropriate a bit under ten years back, or was that some other bunch of idiots elsewhere in the Bible belt?




vincentML -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 12:47:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Since the woman was without oxygen long enough to be brain dead, wouldn't the fetus also be brain dead?

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/texas-father-barred-taking-pregnant-wife-off-life-200600388.html

I favor women’s choice and I favor DNR, so don’t get me wrong when I throw this problem into the mix: How do we know she is brain dead? What tests were used? And, as LL suggested how do we know the fetus is dead?
Here is an experiment to ponder: Do Patients in a Vegetative State Recognize Loved Ones?

For many years, patients in a vegetative state were believed to have no awareness of self or environment. But in recent years, doctors have made use of fMRI to examine brain activity in such patients. They have found that some patients in a vegetative state can perform complex cognitive tasks on command, like imagining a physical activity such as playing tennis, or, in one case, even answering yes-or-no questions. But these cases are rare and don't provide any indication as to whether patients are having personal emotional experiences in such a state.

To gain insight into "what it feels like to be in a vegetative state," the researchers worked with four patients in a persistent (defined as "month-long") or permanent (persisting for more than three months) vegetative state. They showed them photographs of people they did and did not personally know, then gauged the patients' reactions using fMRI, which measures blood flow in the brain to detect areas of neurological activity in real time. In response to all the photographs, a region specific to facial recognition was activated in the patients' brains, indicating that their brains had correctly identified that they were looking at faces.

But in response to the photographs of close family members and friends, brain regions involved in emotional significance and autobiographical information were also activated in the patients' brains. In other words, the patients reacted with activations of brain centers involved in processing emotion, as though they knew the people in the photographs. The results suggest patients in a vegetative state can register and categorize complex visual information and connect it to memories -- a groundbreaking finding.

The ghost in the machine

However, the researchers could not be sure if the patients were conscious of their emotions or just reacting spontaneously. So they then verbally asked the patients to imagine their parents' faces. Surprisingly, one patient, a 60-year-old kindergarten teacher who was hit by a car while crossing the street, exhibited complex brain activity in the face- and emotion-specific brain regions, identical to brain activity seen in healthy people. The researchers say her response is the strongest evidence yet that vegetative-state patients can be "emotionally aware." A second patient, a 23-year-old woman, exhibited activity just in the emotion-specific brain regions. (Significantly, both patients woke up within two months of the tests. They did not remember being in a vegetative state.)

"This experiment, a first of its kind, demonstrates that some vegetative patients may not only possess emotional awareness of the environment but also experience emotional awareness driven by internal processes, such as images," said Dr. Sharon.

Research focused on the "emotional awareness" of patients in a vegetative state is only a few years old. The researchers hope their work will eventually contribute to improved care and treatment. They have also begun working with patients in a minimally conscious state to better understand how regions of the brain interact in response to familiar cues. Emotions, they say, could help unlock the secrets of consciousness.





vincentML -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 12:56:24 PM)

Then there is this item from 2009: Misdiagnosis Of Disorders Of Consciousness Still Commonplace

A sixteen-month study of consensus-based diagnosis of patients with disorders of consciousness has shown that 41% of cases of minimally conscious state (MCS) were misdiagnosed as vegetative state (VS), a condition associated with a much lower chance of recovery. Researchers have demonstrated that standardized neurobehavioral assessment is more sensitive than diagnoses determined by clinical consensus.

Steven Laureys, from the University of Liege, Belgium, worked with a team of researchers, including Caroline Schnakers and Joseph Giacino, to compare consensus-based diagnoses of VS and MCS to those based on the JFK Coma Recovery Scale-Revised (CRS-R), a well-established standardized neurobehavioral rating scale. Laureys said, "Differentiating the vegetative from the minimally conscious state is often one of the most challenging tasks facing clinicians involved in the care of patients with disorders of consciousness. Misdiagnosis can lead to grave consequences, especially in end-of-life decision-making".

The researchers prospectively followed 103 patients with mixed etiologies and compared the clinical consensus diagnosis provided by the physician on the basis of the medical staff's daily observations to diagnoses derived from the CRS-R. They found that of the 44 patients diagnosed with VS based on the clinical consensus of the medical team, 18 (41%) were found to be in MCS following standardized assessment with the CRS-R. According to Laureys, "It is likely that the examiners' reliance on unstructured bedside observations contributed to the high rate of misdiagnosis of VS patients. Unlike traditional bedside assessment, the CRS-R guards against misdiagnosis by incorporating items that directly reflect the existing diagnostic criteria for MCS, and by operationalizing scoring criteria for the identification of behaviors associated with consciousness".




Phydeaux -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/21/2013 11:00:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: wanderingjew

If the State insists she be kept on life support, then the State should pay for it.


The state of Texas should also pay for all medical care for the baby if its born brain dead or severely disabled and not charge the father for child support if he signs away his rights. Since the state is forcing this, he should have the option of abdicating all responsibility.


Just curious here.

So, if the state requires the woman to have the baby the man should be absolved of parental responsibility.

What about if the woman decides to have the baby - I suppose you're against absolving the man for parental responsibility.

Seems logically inconsistent.




Rule -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/22/2013 2:29:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If the baby is brain dead, the mother's health become moot.

I expect the baby to be healthy.




MariaB -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/22/2013 3:07:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wanderingjew

If that's what freedom and liberty look like, I want no part of it. Give me a socialist nightmare any day, thanks.


From where we are standing, from our 'socialist nightmare' in France, we are just so happy we don't live in America!!




MariaB -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (12/22/2013 3:27:38 AM)

This isn't the first baby to be incubated by a mother in a coma and even a brain dead mother.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/350927/Life-after-death-Dead-woman-gives-birth-to-baby-and-saves-four-other-lives

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125510

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/08/27/mother-awakens-from-coma-pregnant-rejects-abortion-to-birth-miracle-baby/

http://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2013/10/comatose-mother-gives-birth-and-then-awakens/#.UrbLZI0pM7A

http://www.nbc15.com/news/headlines/Local_Mom_Gives_Birth_While_in_a_Coma_121543174.html

In this case I do believe they should be following the fathers wishes. Her pregnancy is still very early and if she has a living will specifically saying no life support, those wishes should be honoured.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (1/22/2014 7:22:19 PM)

Update: Fetus is so deformed they can't tell the sex, plus it has brain swelling and a possible heart defect. I hope they will finally pull the plug.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/22/22404705-fetus-of-texas-woman-on-life-support-distinctly-abnormal-family-lawyers-say?lite




ShibsStories -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (1/22/2014 10:30:20 PM)

They have fought it too hard and loud, they wont be able to bear withdrawing now. To withdraw means they were wrong all along.




SadistDave -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (1/22/2014 11:02:42 PM)

According to the state laws, that were already on the books at the time of the mothers death, the hospital cannot just pull the plug. I'm not sure the courts even have to accept any case the husband wants to bring against the state, since he is basically asking the state to break it's own laws.

It would be easier (and probably cheaper) if he simply had his wife moved out of state to California, New York, or any of those states that glorifies the wholesale murder of the unborn. Once she's across state lines he can whack the mother and the baby at his leisure.

-SD-




MariaB -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (1/23/2014 1:51:03 AM)

This whole thing is so incredibly tragic.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Illegal in Texas to pull plug on pregnant brain dead woman. (1/23/2014 11:05:36 AM)

Well, you certainly made your pro-life. Opinion apparentt even if you are ignorant of the law. There is much discussion about the fact that this woman is medically dead and the law doesn't apply to the deaceased..

Tell me then, in your very biased opinion, why should this man face years of medical bills for life support of his dead wife, or even be forced to pay for the fetus to come to term when the baby's health status suggests the child would not live long outside the womb? Since if the woman is no longer pregnant, HER WISHES would be instantly carried out, and there is no law dictated the severely deformed infant receive life support, it appears that you really just want this man to be mired in medical expenses that will inhibit him from taking care of the healthy child the couple already have.

So thank you for pointing out the ignorance and stupidity of pro-lifers. Unless of course you are willing to chip in for those medical expenses. In any case, this woman did not wish to be put of life support, so no one should be able to deny her wishes.




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