quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Lmao right back! You know what medical cost inflation is? It's the rise in medical costs. If medical cost inflation (aka the rise in medical costs) isn't the cause of the rise of medical costs, then, what else can it be?

One reason could be demand and supply, if americans as a people need more care and health care operators are the same than prices will raise even if the costs are costant.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.

Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.

Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Lmao right back! You know what medical cost inflation is? It's the rise in medical costs. If medical cost inflation (aka the rise in medical costs) isn't the cause of the rise of medical costs, then, what else can it be?

One reason could be demand and supply, if americans as a people need more care and health care operators are the same than prices will raise even if the costs are costant.

Wait, are you suggesting that a rise in medical costs isn't the cause of a rise in medical costs?

The price changes due to supply and demand are still part of a rise (or drop) in medical costs, are they not? How is it that you aren't getting that medical cost inflation (that is, the increase in the cost of medical care) doesn't include every factor that causes the cost of medical care to change?

Inflation controlled by The Federal Reserve (or attempted control) isn't the same as "medical cost inflation," so it's not the only factor, but it is something taken into account.

The cost of medical care in the US has inflated at a higher rate than that of the UK. I think we all agree on that.

I even acknowledge that moving to a national system would likely reduce our rate of medical care cost inflation to, roughly, the same as it is in other countries. But, what no one can show, is that costs will drop from where they are today. We are spending upwards of 17% for medical care. I would much rather that number be a lot lower. There are only a handful of ways to effect that, really.

Does anyone really think that nationalizing the US health care system will result in a 30-50% reduction in current costs? If so, please show the data you are relying on for that (you will have to show proof that nationalizing care results in a reduction in spending, and not just a reduction in the rate of medical care cost inflation).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
But, what no one can show, is that costs will drop from where they are today. We are spending upwards of 17% for medical care. I would much rather that number be a lot lower. There are only a handful of ways to effect that, really.

Does anyone really think that nationalizing the US health care system will result in a 30-50% reduction in current costs? If so, please show the data you are relying on for that (you will have to show proof that nationalizing care results in a reduction in spending, and not just a reduction in the rate of medical care cost inflation).

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.

Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.

Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

Please explain what you mean by "buy". Who are you buying the surgery from?

In the UK the hospital does not buy a laser eye surgery. They buy the components of that surgery.
By having the buying power the NHS has they have the ability to purchase drugs, equipment etc at a lower rate than an individual hospital.

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.
Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.
Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

Please explain what you mean by "buy". Who are you buying the surgery from?
In the UK the hospital does not buy a laser eye surgery. They buy the components of that surgery.
By having the buying power the NHS has they have the ability to purchase drugs, equipment etc at a lower rate than an individual hospital.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
But, what no one can show, is that costs will drop from where they are today. We are spending upwards of 17% for medical care. I would much rather that number be a lot lower. There are only a handful of ways to effect that, really.
Does anyone really think that nationalizing the US health care system will result in a 30-50% reduction in current costs? If so, please show the data you are relying on for that (you will have to show proof that nationalizing care results in a reduction in spending, and not just a reduction in the rate of medical care cost inflation).

I and many others have demonstrated that the costs WILL go down for a number of reasons.
You are refusing to accept those reasons.

quote:

Quite simply, the government, in a single-payer system dictates to big pharma and equipment suppliers what price they are going to pay *IF* they want big business.
That's how it works.
I have already given you a direct example of this with my local NHS hospital and a private one.
Same scanner cost the NHS less than half what the private hospital could buy it for.
The NHS hospital can provide the service with it but the private hospital cannot (because they couldn't afford it).
In the US, all those inflated costs, with all the profits and shareholder dividends, get passed onto the end-user. Ergo, stupidly high prices.
That doesn't happen with a single-payer system. Period.
That is where the savings come from.
Big pharma don't demand $140 for a box of pills. If they want 100+ million outlets for their product, they get $10 a box; take it or leave it.
We have all explained this to you desi but you aren't accepting it.
ETA: Re-read my posts at #38 and #40.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.
Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.
Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

Please explain what you mean by "buy". Who are you buying the surgery from?
In the UK the hospital does not buy a laser eye surgery. They buy the components of that surgery.
By having the buying power the NHS has they have the ability to purchase drugs, equipment etc at a lower rate than an individual hospital.

No one is buying the surgery? The surgery is free of any cost?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
ok so it is again narrowing the definitions to not discussa the problem, sorry I missunderstood, I meant mere production costs don't make the price alone in a free market system. If you want to discuss that you have higher health services' prices because your healt services' prices are higher give me a call.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.
Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.
Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

Please explain what you mean by "buy". Who are you buying the surgery from?
In the UK the hospital does not buy a laser eye surgery. They buy the components of that surgery.
By having the buying power the NHS has they have the ability to purchase drugs, equipment etc at a lower rate than an individual hospital.

No one is buying the surgery? The surgery is free of any cost?

I have had a fair amount of surgery recently, skin cancer, removal of brain tumour including radiotherapy and bowel surgery. I didn't pay anything apart from the NI I paid during the time I was working.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
ok so it is again narrowing the definitions to not discussa the problem, sorry I missunderstood, I meant mere production costs don't make the price alone in a free market system. If you want to discuss that you have higher health services' prices because your healt services' prices are higher give me a call.

Nope. I've talked all along about the inflation of medical costs. Every time I've mentioned inflation, it has to do with medical care costs. The rate at which medical care costs have increased has been much greater in the US than other places. No one disputes this. Back in the 60's, the %GDP spend wasn't amazingly different among the industrialized countries. The majority of difference in current costs is because of the higher rate of medical care cost inflation in the US, compared with the rest of the countries.

Profits are part of medical care cost inflation. General inflation is part of medical care cost inflation. Investments into capital expenditures are part of medical care cost inflation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.
Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.
Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

Please explain what you mean by "buy". Who are you buying the surgery from?
In the UK the hospital does not buy a laser eye surgery. They buy the components of that surgery.
By having the buying power the NHS has they have the ability to purchase drugs, equipment etc at a lower rate than an individual hospital.

No one is buying the surgery? The surgery is free of any cost?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
But, what no one can show, is that costs will drop from where they are today. We are spending upwards of 17% for medical care. I would much rather that number be a lot lower. There are only a handful of ways to effect that, really.
Does anyone really think that nationalizing the US health care system will result in a 30-50% reduction in current costs? If so, please show the data you are relying on for that (you will have to show proof that nationalizing care results in a reduction in spending, and not just a reduction in the rate of medical care cost inflation).

I and many others have demonstrated that the costs WILL go down for a number of reasons.
You are refusing to accept those reasons.

What reasons? What proof? Where has this happened? Show me. I've asked this for how many months now? Why hasn't anyone showed it yet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

Quite simply, the government, in a single-payer system dictates to big pharma and equipment suppliers what price they are going to pay *IF* they want big business.
That's how it works.
I have already given you a direct example of this with my local NHS hospital and a private one.
Same scanner cost the NHS less than half what the private hospital could buy it for.
The NHS hospital can provide the service with it but the private hospital cannot (because they couldn't afford it).
In the US, all those inflated costs, with all the profits and shareholder dividends, get passed onto the end-user. Ergo, stupidly high prices.
That doesn't happen with a single-payer system. Period.
That is where the savings come from.
Big pharma don't demand $140 for a box of pills. If they want 100+ million outlets for their product, they get $10 a box; take it or leave it.
We have all explained this to you desi but you aren't accepting it.
ETA: Re-read my posts at #38 and #40.

What happens if Big Pharma says, "no, that's not how it's going to happen?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I have mentioned, at least once , that government proves over and over again that it isn't going to reduce reimbursement rates (the "Doc Fix" Bills). So, what makes you think that there will be massive cost controls that are going to lower costs?

Where have costs gone down because of the institution of a national system?

You keep saying the same things you always say, but, you aren't answering the question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

As for the lower inflation costs, thats patent nonsense as the link in my previous post will show. Statisticians take all that into account.

Patent nonsense?!? You have shown that your cost inflation is lower than that in the US. How is it patent nonsense, then?

Lmao.....you would like to think all your extra cost is down to inflation and not down to maximising profit. Good luck with that.

Lmao right back! You know what medical cost inflation is? It's the rise in medical costs. If medical cost inflation (aka the rise in medical costs) isn't the cause of the rise of medical costs, then, what else can it be?

Note that I have been pretty damn good about talking about medical cost inflation, and not general inflation. I may not have put "medical" in the post you responded to, but I've been pretty clear that's what I'm talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Clearly refuse? Yeah, you have a clue who I am.
Enjoy ignoring anything else I post. I have a feeling it won't bug me.
Btw, doesn't the US Government have "buying power" when it comes to Medicare reimbursements? How's come those costs are still ridiculously high? What kind of leverage will the government have, anyway? How many knee replacements are they going to guarantee to "buy," in exchange for a lower cost? What about dialysis treatments? How many laser eye surgeries? How many impacted wisdom teeth are they going to guarantee will be pulled in exchange for a lower price?

Please explain what you mean by "buy". Who are you buying the surgery from?
In the UK the hospital does not buy a laser eye surgery. They buy the components of that surgery.
By having the buying power the NHS has they have the ability to purchase drugs, equipment etc at a lower rate than an individual hospital.

No one is buying the surgery? The surgery is free of any cost?

I have had a fair amount of surgery recently, skin cancer, removal of brain tumour including radiotherapy and bowel surgery. I didn't pay anything apart from the NI I paid during the time I was working.

Two things:

1. I hope your recovery goes exceedingly well.

2. You didn't answer the question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
ok so it is again narrowing the definitions to not discussa the problem, sorry I missunderstood, I meant mere production costs don't make the price alone in a free market system. If you want to discuss that you have higher health services' prices because your healt services' prices are higher give me a call.

Nope. I've talked all along about the inflation of medical costs. Every time I've mentioned inflation, it has to do with medical care costs. The rate at which medical care costs have increased has been much greater in the US than other places. No one disputes this. Back in the 60's, the %GDP spend wasn't amazingly different among the industrialized countries. The majority of difference in current costs is because of the higher rate of medical care cost inflation in the US, compared with the rest of the countries.
Profits are part of medical care cost inflation. General inflation is part of medical care cost inflation. Investments into capital expenditures are part of medical care cost inflation.

There are no profits within the NHS here. The Government allocates funding to hospitals and GPs etc and they use it to provide the services. I doubt at the end of the Financial year there is very much left from the allocation. If there is any then it would be used within the hospital or gp practice.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

As for the lower inflation costs, thats patent nonsense as the link in my previous post will show. Statisticians take all that into account.

Patent nonsense?!? You have shown that your cost inflation is lower than that in the US. How is it patent nonsense, then?

Lmao.....you would like to think all your extra cost is down to inflation and not down to maximising profit. Good luck with that.

Lmao right back! You know what medical cost inflation is? It's the rise in medical costs. If medical cost inflation (aka the rise in medical costs) isn't the cause of the rise of medical costs, then, what else can it be?
Note that I have been pretty damn good about talking about medical cost inflation, and not general inflation. I may not have put "medical" in the post you responded to, but I've been pretty clear that's what I'm talking about.

Oh ffs a rise in costs isnt just about inflation, I cant help it if you cant grasp basic facts.
"Medical cost inflation" is a term you are using to try and make a point, sadly its a bad term and a bad point.
I note you havent produced your non existsant NHS graph you claim to have seen. Either you are bullshitting or you are bullshitting.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The surgery is free of any cost?

I have had a fair amount of surgery recently, skin cancer, removal of brain tumour including radiotherapy and bowel surgery. I didn't pay anything apart from the NI I paid during the time I was working.

Two things:
1. I hope your recovery goes exceedingly well.
2. You didn't answer the question.

Which question did I not answer?

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I see. The NHS is funding the care.

Wait. Providing payment for the services is "buying" that care.

Is allocation done at the beginning of the year, or at the end? Is it a "reimbursement" system, or another method?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Defining what I'm talking about is a bad term?!? Fine.

If look at the smurf of the smurfing smurfy smurf, then you'll smurf the smurf's smurf smurf.

I see how that's much clearer.