Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (Full Version)

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leonine -> Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 10:40:47 AM)

My wife's nephew (nephew-in-law?) and his wife have a baby with an obscure genetic glitch (a mutation, apparently, neither parent has it) that means he can't eat properly. He gets most of his food through a valve straight into his stomach. Despite having nearly starved before they found a way to feed him, he seems to be developing normally now apart from being half the size he should be.

Since they live in Sweden, I wasn't surprised at the quality of care they'd had from the state hospitals, from the prenatalists who'd seen that the pregnacy was going wrong, to the geneticists who identified the problem and the surgeons who fitted a stent on a patient the size of a child's doll. I'd have expected as much from our own NHS. But what impressed my socks off is that, now that he's coming up to the age when all Swedish children are entitled to free daycare, the local nursery has arranged a special attendant for him, and a separate room where he can be introduced to normal children two or three at a time till they get used to having to treat him carefully. There, the UK is still way behind.

The thing is, this couple are not welfare scroungers. They bought a local business that was ticking over, and are working their tails off building it up till it's employing local labour and bringing trade to the area. They're exactly the kind of enterprising capitalists that conservative theory says can't exist in a "socialist" economy like Sweden's, but who in reality are the basis of Scandinavia's prosperity. And they can go on doing what they do, creating wealth and employment, because they have that kind of safety net when a personal crisis strikes.

Without that system, they'd have had to sell everything they own trying to pay for the baby's treatment, including the business. And then they would be welfare scroungers, and the state and the local area would be poorer for it. For that, they pay taxes at rates that would make most Americans reach for a gun. But Scandinavia's economy came through the storm in good shape (due to their old-fashioned belief that factories are more useful than banks,) so they can afford it.

When I read "Atlas Shrugged" I noticed that there are no children in it, no very old people, and nobody in the least bit sick. (There aren't even any doctors, except once when the plot absolutely demands it, and he's hustled away in two paragraphs.) Rand's "root, hog, or die" philosophy only works for the young and fit: so like most economic theorists, she rewrites reality to fit the theory.

There was once a large faction in conservatism that recognised that keeping everyone healthy, and raising educated civilised kids, was good for the country and good for business, and that it was smart business to leave jobs like that to the government so that money people could concentrate on making money. Nowadays, they'd be damned as socialists.




Dolphin2 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 10:46:35 AM)

Yay! An argument from anecdotal example! Surely, you've convinced everyone that socialism is better just because you found one person who did OK!

Except of course for all of those who DID live in socialist countries and can give you 1000s of examples of how socialized medicine sucks. Or even those in UK/Canada who can give you such examples.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 10:49:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
My wife's nephew (nephew-in-law?) and his wife have a baby with an obscure genetic glitch (a mutation, apparently, neither parent has it) that means he can't eat properly. He gets most of his food through a valve straight into his stomach. Despite having nearly starved before they found a way to feed him, he seems to be developing normally now apart from being half the size he should be.
Since they live in Sweden, I wasn't surprised at the quality of care they'd had from the state hospitals, from the prenatalists who'd seen that the pregnacy was going wrong, to the geneticists who identified the problem and the surgeons who fitted a stent on a patient the size of a child's doll. I'd have expected as much from our own NHS. But what impressed my socks off is that, now that he's coming up to the age when all Swedish children are entitled to free daycare, the local nursery has arranged a special attendant for him, and a separate room where he can be introduced to normal children two or three at a time till they get used to having to treat him carefully. There, the UK is still way behind.
The thing is, this couple are not welfare scroungers. They bought a local business that was ticking over, and are working their tails off building it up till it's employing local labour and bringing trade to the area. They're exactly the kind of enterprising capitalists that conservative theory says can't exist in a "socialist" economy like Sweden's, but who in reality are the basis of Scandinavia's prosperity. And they can go on doing what they do, creating wealth and employment, because they have that kind of safety net when a personal crisis strikes.
Without that system, they'd have had to sell everything they own trying to pay for the baby's treatment, including the business. And then they would be welfare scroungers, and the state and the local area would be poorer for it. For that, they pay taxes at rates that would make most Americans reach for a gun. But Scandinavia's economy came through the storm in good shape (due to their old-fashioned belief that factories are more useful than banks,) so they can afford it.
When I read "Atlas Shrugged" I noticed that there are no children in it, no very old people, and nobody in the least bit sick. (There aren't even any doctors, except once when the plot absolutely demands it, and he's hustled away in two paragraphs.) Rand's "root, hog, or die" philosophy only works for the young and fit: so like most economic theorists, she rewrites reality to fit the theory.
There was once a large faction in conservatism that recognised that keeping everyone healthy, and raising educated civilised kids, was good for the country and good for business, and that it was smart business to leave jobs like that to the government so that money people could concentrate on making money. Nowadays, they'd be damned as socialists.


Happy to hear they are getting the assistance they need.






mnottertail -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 10:55:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Yay! An argument from anecdotal example! Surely, you've convinced everyone that socialism is better just because you found one person who did OK!

Except of course for all of those who DID live in socialist countries and can give you 1000s of examples of how socialized medicine sucks. Or even those in UK/Canada who can give you such examples.


We can certainly give millions of examples of how capitalized medicine sucks. And millions of examples how capitalism sucks.

Lets call these socialist countries:


China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium
How many doing way better than the US, how many doing way worse?





ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 11:00:39 AM)

I'm still waiting to hear from the masses about how bad socialized medicine is in other countries. So far all I've heard has come from politicians who have an agenda, and various anecdotal examples.

Then there's the whole argument that what we have here in the US REALLY sucks but every attempt to make it better gets beat-up by the "compassionate conservatives".

Socialism seems to work pretty well in the US when it comes to the military, the police, the fire department. What are you so afraid of about a proper, national health care system?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2

Yay! An argument from anecdotal example! Surely, you've convinced everyone that socialism is better just because you found one person who did OK!

Except of course for all of those who DID live in socialist countries and can give you 1000s of examples of how socialized medicine sucks. Or even those in UK/Canada who can give you such examples.





FellowSlave -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 12:15:02 PM)

Socialism could be good, but it is not a stable system long term. Most often it does not produce enough wealth to support the benefits, and in long run there is a big trouble. History clearly shows it. Do we ever learn from history? I do speculate socialism would be good for high oil or natural mineral deposits wealth countries. It rarely happens: robber barons take over by force.
The other negative aspect of socialism often occurring is its terror against an individual, forced collectivism, political correctness, and other forms of stupidity.
Small scale socialism example in the US would be a state university campus. The workers have good benefits and job security, productivity is low, it survives only because of wealth input from outside the system.




mnottertail -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 12:29:34 PM)

AH yes, the terror of the university campus.




FelineRanger -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 12:48:40 PM)

I freely admit that what I only know about Sweden's benefits from what I have read. But, if what Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries do is considered socialism, let's have it. Health care is run as a public service there, not one more piggy bank like it is here. Even Scandinavian prisons, considered "soft" here, offer legitimate therapy to inmates who want or need it. Hell, a Swedish inmate gets better medical treatment than I do now. The difference to me appears to be that those countries practice socialism as it was probably intended, with a focus on the citizens, instead of socialism as a euphemism for dictatorship.




blacksword404 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:12:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

I freely admit that what I only know about Sweden's benefits from what I have read. But, if what Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries do is considered socialism, let's have it. Health care is run as a public service there, not one more piggy bank like it is here. Even Scandinavian prisons, considered "soft" here, offer legitimate therapy to inmates who want or need it. Hell, a Swedish inmate gets better medical treatment than I do now. The difference to me appears to be that those countries practice socialism as it was probably intended, with a focus on the citizens, instead of socialism as a euphemism for dictatorship.


The swedes pay into that system. It's not free.




MsMJAY -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:14:33 PM)

The Soviet Union and Nazis. That was the first thing I learned about socialism. Russia and Hitler. Being raised during the cold war I was taught to hate socialism and everything it stands for. I recall being taught that it would mean the destruction of our great democracy and that we should watch out for and be afraid of anyone who tried to introduce it in our country. Basically I was taught that the government controlled everything you said and did. I know this is not correct, but its very difficult to undo the teaching.

At this point, whether or not its a good idea is not even part of the discussion for many Americans. The very word Socialism is enough to make Americans say no. Many who are against socialism cannot even tell you what it means. They are just repeating the programming that was instilled in so many of us for so long. For myself, I think socialized medicine might be a very good thing for the US; but it bothers me in a way I cannot explain to call it "socialism."

Laws are easy to change. Its the hearts and minds required to pass those laws that are difficult to change. Social conditioning is a real motherfucker.




Apocalypso -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:25:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2
Or even those in UK/Canada who can give you such examples.

To be clear, while we might have criticisms of the NHS, you can count the number of Brits who would prefer the US system on one hand. Because whatever the issues (and the NHS is by no means perfect), at least we don't have vast numbers dying of preventable diseases because they can't afford healthcare.

This isn't even a left/right thing here. Outside from a few libertarians, nobody wants to replace the NHS with a fully private system. Because we've seen how it works for you. It's shit.




Phydeaux -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:33:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dolphin2
Or even those in UK/Canada who can give you such examples.

To be clear, while we might have criticisms of the NHS, you can count the number of Brits who would prefer the US system on one hand. Because whatever the issues (and the NHS is by no means perfect), at least we don't have vast numbers dying of preventable diseases because they can't afford healthcare.

This isn't even a left/right thing here. Outside from a few libertarians, nobody wants to replace the NHS with a fully private system. Because we've seen how it works for you. It's shit.



While the government has money to dole things out - what would you expect?





DomKen -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:41:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FellowSlave

Socialism could be good, but it is not a stable system long term. Most often it does not produce enough wealth to support the benefits, and in long run there is a big trouble. History clearly shows it. Do we ever learn from history? I do speculate socialism would be good for high oil or natural mineral deposits wealth countries. It rarely happens: robber barons take over by force.
The other negative aspect of socialism often occurring is its terror against an individual, forced collectivism, political correctness, and other forms of stupidity.
Small scale socialism example in the US would be a state university campus. The workers have good benefits and job security, productivity is low, it survives only because of wealth input from outside the system.

Are you not aware that the scandinavian nations, all socialist, have a much lower debt level than the US?

Also you seem to have confused communism and socialism.




Dvr22999874 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:47:59 PM)

But is democracy stable long-term ? The robber-barons seem to have taken over most of the democracies too.......by stealth rather than by force and be manipulation and large-scale ownership of the media ( Ratbag Murcdoch is a prime example). So democracy as such is basically a hollow myth.




Phydeaux -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:49:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FellowSlave

Socialism could be good, but it is not a stable system long term. Most often it does not produce enough wealth to support the benefits, and in long run there is a big trouble. History clearly shows it. Do we ever learn from history? I do speculate socialism would be good for high oil or natural mineral deposits wealth countries. It rarely happens: robber barons take over by force.
The other negative aspect of socialism often occurring is its terror against an individual, forced collectivism, political correctness, and other forms of stupidity.
Small scale socialism example in the US would be a state university campus. The workers have good benefits and job security, productivity is low, it survives only because of wealth input from outside the system.

Are you not aware that the scandinavian nations, all socialist, have a much lower debt level than the US?

Also you seem to have confused communism and socialism.


Scandinavian countries are stable only in the microcosm that we are looking at them now. They have extremely low birth rates, high immigration rates.

They are sheltered by being in a political union with other states that are significantly more capitalistic than they: germany, poland, the baltic states, etc.

They are sheltered militarily by the United States.

None of these conditions are long term sustainable.





Dvr22999874 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:57:15 PM)

Who is the United States sheltering them AGAINST ? The Swedes have been neutral since the gods know when, since they found they could make more money selling to both sides in any conflict.










DomKen -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 2:58:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FellowSlave

Socialism could be good, but it is not a stable system long term. Most often it does not produce enough wealth to support the benefits, and in long run there is a big trouble. History clearly shows it. Do we ever learn from history? I do speculate socialism would be good for high oil or natural mineral deposits wealth countries. It rarely happens: robber barons take over by force.
The other negative aspect of socialism often occurring is its terror against an individual, forced collectivism, political correctness, and other forms of stupidity.
Small scale socialism example in the US would be a state university campus. The workers have good benefits and job security, productivity is low, it survives only because of wealth input from outside the system.

Are you not aware that the scandinavian nations, all socialist, have a much lower debt level than the US?

Also you seem to have confused communism and socialism.


Scandinavian countries are stable only in the microcosm that we are looking at them now. They have extremely low birth rates, high immigration rates.

They are sheltered by being in a political union with other states that are significantly more capitalistic than they: germany, poland, the baltic states, etc.

They are sheltered militarily by the United States.

None of these conditions are long term sustainable.



The fins and swedes are protected by the US? Since when?




Dvr22999874 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 3:00:06 PM)

I'm with you on that Ken. I thought they were a part of NATO, which may have American elements but there are a couple of other nations in there who may have a say in that




joether -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 3:15:47 PM)

If your looking for an economic philosophy that works all the time or the grand majority of the time; you'll be looking for an infinite amount of time. Each of the known types have their share of inherent problems attached to them. Not to mention the politics that exists or intertwines with them. Which is to say that each economy in operation right now does not operate in a vacuum. Nor for the most part, does each economy work only by itself and with no interaction from other nations (North Korea might be an exception here...). So devising an economic model to work in any one country is not a simple task or concept. As each economy is generally handling many tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of people, the infrastructure and logistics to keep it in operation are quite complex and complicated. The first problem encountered is most people are not well studied on the idea of economics in the first place. They use basic words with basic definitions and meanings that are used for political reasons and really have no bearing on the actual systems in play. For instance, conservatives hate socialism without fully understanding how such a system operates, or examples of it (i.e. the US Military). Yet, state capitalism is the best even though its inherent flaw is nearly fatal to it: greed.

What is really being discussed here? Not the philosophical 'engine' being used but cosmetic details typically found on the tail light of the 'car'. The 'car', being metaphorically the whole of the country at discussion. There are plenty of examples of socialism (or capitalism for that matter) doing both well and poorly in many different circumstances. When it really comes down to it, the economic model I like the best is the one that makes life easier on my wallet in the short and long run.




Dvr22999874 -> RE: Why "socialism" is good for business (and people) (1/3/2014 3:24:20 PM)

Whether or not it would be easier on your wallet or not, would surely depend on whether you are sick or have an ongoing illness that requires a long course of treatment ?




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