RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening....

RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (Full Version)

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Tkman117 -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 6:07:10 PM)
You do realize that while Fracking is reducing CO2 emissions by providing a "cleaner" alternative that have massive issues relating to the health of surrounding nerigborhoods where the tracking takes place? Sources: http://www.dangersoffracking.com http://www.psr.org/environment-and-health/environmental-health-policy-institute/hydraulic-fracking.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_States

Phydeaux -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 6:12:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 FR What confuses me is 97% of climate scientists agree that climate change is happening and that it is being driven, at least a good chunk of it, by man made actions. What makes conservatives think that 97% of scientists are wrong? These are people who breathe and live science, which is a field where they go into situations asking questions, not going in with an expectation in mind and twisting the information towards a certain result. What good comes of that? Really? All of the money is in the oil industry so what money would they gain from validating what was already known? Science is tested and retested over and over and over. They have found that CO2 and other green house gasses trap heat from the sun, and in sufficient amounts, they warm the atmosphere. So what makes politicians and non scientists think that they no better than the men and women who have studied and explored this issue for so many years? What makes them the experts? The first prediction of co2 induced global warming that I know of was arrhenious around 1870. It didn't happen then, and it isn't happening now. When Arrhenious posted that theory, it was pretty much soundly defeated by another scientiest who correctly noted that IR emissions were saturated; adding additional CO2 caused no further absorption. This same observation was rediscovered by nasa last year, when the concluded that models of co2 absorption were wrong and that co2 in the upper atmosphere served to cool the planet, not warm it. quote: Now, in the last 2 decades, climate models have and continue to become more accurate. Actually, no they haven't. None of the IPCCs climate models have less than about 570% error rate for the last year, and in fact the IPCC models are diverging from reality, not converging. quote: These models provide a range of probable outcomes, and if the outcomes fall outside these probabilities then there is something wrong with the model or it isn't accurate enough. Models aren't designed to predict outcomes with 100% accuracy, doing so would require the creation of a model which can track every atom on planet earth and predict where each one will go and when. Models are only so powerful, but they're useful as they give us a general idea of where the world is heading. Actually, if you look at the carbon forcing in the IPCC models - there are no data points that can give you net lower temperatures. In other words - the models are flatly, wrong. Finally regarding the 97%. This number has been flatly debunked, as I posted in another thread. Many of the scientists quoted as supporting AGW - do not in fact support it. Additionally, as I have quoted in other articles, the number of articles critical of AGW have trippled; and the number of scientists skeptical of AGW is increasing, not decreasing. I suggest you google those keywords for confirmation. And, if you'd like to see papers that don't support global warming, I suggest you go to the Non Governmental Panel on climate change. (google that too).

Tkman117 -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 6:13:45 PM)
I provided sources to my claims, please provide sources to yours, otherwise you can go shove it.

Phydeaux -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 6:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 You do realize that while Fracking is reducing CO2 emissions by providing a "cleaner" alternative that have massive issues relating to the health of surrounding nerigborhoods where the tracking takes place? Sources: http://www.dangersoffracking.com http://www.psr.org/environment-and-health/environmental-health-policy-institute/hydraulic-fracking.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_States No, I don't realize any "massive" issues. WWII was "massive" the holocaust was massive. Three mile island - massive. a few cows dying somewhere? yeah. Quite the opposite of "massive" And I don't really consider two left wing articles and a disputed wiki as evidence. Next you'll be quoting discredited gasland - where the "environmentalist" (liar) lit natural gas and tried to pass it off as contaminated well water.

Tkman117 -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 6:25:01 PM)
Okay, so any articles I provide are instantly credited as left wind and disputed? Do you even read them for an ounce of possible truth? Or do you look at the link name and assume it's wrong? Honestly, if I were you I'd be curious enough to find out WHY people think there are health issues instead of shamelessly claiming that said people are liars. Have you even seen this stuff? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8 Where is the evidence to the contrary? Is it what Republican politicians, fox news, Rush Limbaugh and oil company execs have to say? Or is it god and his trusty bible? Where the hell do you get this blinding information about how this stuff and the people affected by it are wrong? Because if you say people aren't affected by fracking, go to the farms and communities that have fracking nearby and ask them first hand why they claim that fracking is harming their health.

Phydeaux -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 6:39:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 I provided sources to my claims, please provide sources to yours, otherwise you can go shove it. Really??? Not that I saw. Could you, for example, please show me where you provided a source for; quote: Now, in the last 2 decades, climate models have and continue to become more accurate. Cause I didn't see that. And frankly, since I've read a few thousand pages on the subject I am always eager to learn more. See, I've never seen any data, other than the fact that the IPCC models are wildly wrong. So yes, I would be really curious to see those same models getting as you say.. more accurate. as for: quote: When the USA is right up there next to a country that has 1 BILLION people in terms of CO2 production, it's hard not to bash the USA on these kind of issues. So before you start blaming others, look at yourself please. Co2 production is usually a product of economic activity, much less a product of population. When you divide Economic output by tonnes of CO2 you get emissions per unit of economic activitiy. On that basis: Netherlands: 3,619 EU: 3,490 Germany: 3,318 Israel: 2,479 US: 2,291 Thats right - per unit of economic output, the US pollutes about 1/3 less than the EU. Now, you can't really use this to compare to nondeveloped countries. Extraction economies - such as Russia & saudi Arabia can generate huge incomes without concocomitant economies. And similarly countries that are developing (china, brazil) have huge portions of their economy functioning at an agrarian level. Nonetheless.. it would be refreshing if you europeans would cut your own hypocrisy and start cutting your emissions, instead of pointing your fingers at the US.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 7:34:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Co2 production is usually a product of economic activity, much less a product of population. When you divide Economic output by tonnes of CO2 you get emissions per unit of economic activitiy. On that basis: Netherlands: 3,619 EU: 3,490 Germany: 3,318 Israel: 2,479 US: 2,291 Thats right - per unit of economic output, the US pollutes about 1/3 less than the EU. Nonetheless.. it would be refreshing if you europeans would cut your own hypocrisy and start cutting your emissions, instead of pointing your fingers at the US. And here are some figures that are in conflict with yours (And note the info isn't Wiki and the data is provided by a US source) - CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita) Carbon dioxide emissions are those stemming from the burning of fossil fuels and the manufacture of cement. They include carbon dioxide produced during consumption of solid, liquid, and gas fuels and gas flaring. Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, Environmental Sciences Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Tennessee, United States. Catalog Sources World Development Indicators Country name 2009 2010 Afghanistan 0.2 0.3 Albania 1.2 1.4 Algeria 3.4 3.3 Andorra 6.6 6.6 Angola 1.5 1.6 Antigua and Barbuda 5.8 5.9 Argentina 4.5 4.5 Armenia 1.5 1.4 Aruba 22.6 22.8 Australia 18.1 16.9 Austria 7.4 8.0 Azerbaijan 4.8 5.1 Bahamas, The 4.6 6.8 Bahrain 20.3 19.3 Bangladesh 0.4 0.4 Barbados 5.8 5.4 Belarus 6.3 6.6 Belgium 9.7 10.0 Belize 1.4 1.4 Benin 0.5 0.5 Bermuda 7.1 7.3 Bhutan 0.6 0.7 Bolivia 1.4 1.5 Bosnia and Herzeg 7.9 8.1 Botswana 2.3 2.7 Brazil 1.9 2.2 Brunei Darussalam 23.1 22.9 Bulgaria 5.6 5.9 Burkina Faso 0.1 0.1 Burundi 0.0 0.0 Cambodia 0.3 0.3 Cameroon 0.3 0.4 Canada 15.2 14.6 Cape Verde 0.6 0.7 Cayman Islands 10.8 10.6 Central African Rep 0.1 0.1 Chad 0.0 0.0 Chile 4.0 4.2 China 5.8 6.2 Colombia 1.5 1.6 Comoros 0.2 0.2 Congo, Dem. Rep. 0.0 0.0 Congo, Rep. 0.5 0.5 Costa Rica 1.7 1.7 Cote d'Ivoire 0.3 0.3 Croatia 4.9 4.7 Cuba 2.6 3.4 Cyprus 7.5 7.0 Czech Republic 10.3 10.6 Denmark 8.1 8.3 Djibouti 0.6 0.6 Dominica 1.8 1.9 Dominican Republic 2.1 2.1 Ecuador 2.1 2.2 Egypt, Arab Rep. 2.6 2.6 El Salvador 1.0 1.0 Equatorial Guinea 6.8 6.7 Eritrea 0.1 0.1 Estonia 11.0 13.7 Ethiopia 0.1 0.1 Faeroe Islands 13.5 14.3 Fiji 1.0 1.5 Finland 10.0 11.5 France 5.5 5.6 French Polynesia 3.3 3.3 Gabon 0.1 1.7 Gambia, The 0.3 0.3 Georgia 1.4 1.4 Germany 8.9 9.1 Ghana 0.3 0.4 Greece 8.4 7.7 Greenland 9.9 11.1 Grenada 2.4 2.5 Guatemala 0.8 0.8 Guinea 0.1 0.1 Guinea-Bissau 0.2 0.2 Guyana 2.0 2.2 Haiti 0.2 0.2 Honduras 1.1 1.1 Hong Kong, China 5.3 5.2 Hungary 4.9 5.1 Iceland 6.4 6.2 India 1.7 1.7 Indonesia 1.9 1.8 Iran, Islamic Rep. 7.9 7.7 Iraq 3.5 3.7 Ireland 9.1 8.9 Israel 9.0 9.3 Italy 6.7 6.7 Jamaica 3.2 2.6 Japan 8.6 9.2 Jordan 3.6 3.4 Kazakhstan 13.3 15.2 Kenya 0.3 0.3 Kiribati 0.4 0.6 Korea, Dem. Rep. 3.1 2.9 Korea, Rep. 10.4 11.5 Kuwait 28.7 31.3 Kyrgyz Republic 1.2 1.2 Lao PDR 0.3 0.3 Latvia 3.0 3.4 Lebanon 4.9 4.7 Lesotho 0.0 0.0 Liberia 0.1 0.2 Libya 11.3 9.8 Lithuania 3.8 4.1 Luxembourg 20.6 21.4 Macao SAR, China 2.5 1.9 Macedonia, FYR 5.4 5.2 Madagascar 0.1 0.1 Malawi 0.1 0.1 Malaysia 7.3 7.7 Maldives 3.3 3.3 Mali 0.0 0.0 Malta 6.0 6.2 Marshall Islands 2.0 2.0 Mauritania 0.6 0.6 Mauritius 3.0 3.2 Mexico 3.8 3.8 Micronesia, Fed. Sts. 1.0 1.0 Moldova 1.3 1.4 Mongolia 4.1 4.2 Montenegro 2.9 4.2 Morocco 1.6 1.6 Mozambique 0.1 0.1 Myanmar 0.2 0.2 Namibia 1.5 1.5 Nepal 0.1 0.1 Netherlands 10.3 11.0 New Caledonia 11.6 15.7 New Zealand 7.5 7.2 Nicaragua 0.8 0.8 Niger 0.1 0.1 Nigeria 0.5 0.5 Norway 9.7 11.7 Oman 15.1 20.4 Pakistan 0.9 0.9 Palau 10.3 10.6 Panama 2.4 2.6 Papua New Guinea 0.5 0.5 Paraguay 0.7 0.8 Peru 1.6 2.0 Philippines 0.8 0.9 Poland 7.8 8.3 Portugal 5.4 4.9 Qatar 42.3 40.3 Romania 3.7 3.7 Russian Federation 11.1 12.2 Rwanda 0.1 0.1 Samoa 0.9 0.9 Sao Tome & Prin. 0.5 0.6 Saudi Arabia 16.1 17.0 Senegal 0.5 0.5 Serbia 6.3 6.3 Seychelles 8.7 7.8 Sierra Leone 0.1 0.1 Singapore 5.0 2.7 Slovak Republic 6.3 6.6 Slovenia 7.5 7.5 Solomon Islands 0.4 0.4 Somalia 0.1 0.1 South Africa 10.2 9.2 Spain 6.3 5.9 Sri Lanka 0.6 0.6 St. Kitts and Nevis 5.0 4.8 St. Lucia 2.2 2.3 St. Vinc. & Gren. 1.8 1.9 Sudan 0.3 0.3 Suriname 4.7 4.5 Swaziland 0.9 0.9 Sweden 4.7 5.6 Switzerland 5.4 5.0 Syrian Arab Rep. 3.0 2.9 Tajikistan 0.4 0.4 Tanzania 0.1 0.2 Thailand 4.2 4.4 Timor-Leste 0.2 0.2 Togo 0.2 0.2 Tonga 1.7 1.5 Trinidad & Tobago 36.4 38.2 Tunisia 2.4 2.5 Turkey 3.9 4.1 Turkmenistan 9.7 10.5 Turks and Caicos Is. 5.3 5.2 Uganda 0.1 0.1 Ukraine 5.7 6.6 United Arab Em. 21.1 19.9 United Kingdom 7.7 7.9 United States 17.3 17.6 Uruguay 2.3 2.0 Uzbekistan 4.2 3.7 Vanuatu 0.5 0.5 Venezuela, RB 6.5 6.9 Vietnam 1.6 1.7 West Bank & Gaza 0.6 0.6 Yemen, Rep. 1.0 1.0 Zambia 0.2 0.2 Zimbabwe 0.7 0.7 And also note, every single European country produces LESS than the US!! In fact, there are very few countries that produce more than the US. Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC

Tkman117 -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 7:39:34 PM)
In reply to your first point, I learned about models in general, not specifically climate models, in the last 2 months of university. I could give you the contact information for my prof who taught me, but I'd rather not give out private information to someone who would likely pester her with questions. But here is a good article from someone who deals with models on a regular basis. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/02/27/are-more-accurate-climate-change-models-worse/ As to your second point, I'm canadian not european, and lumping all of the Eu together as if it were one unified country is a bit disingenuous as each country has different outputs of CO2. That being said, neither Canada or the EU are claiming the ones to have clean hands. Not to mention that all this coming from "The Leaders of the Free World" is a bit of a laugh, if you guys are truly the leaders of the free world, you'd be taking the initiative by cutting emissions, instead of producing around 13% of the world's emissions and claiming we're the hypocrites.

Phydeaux -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 9:21:37 PM)
Apparently you didn't read where I said.. per unit of economic output. Does anyone really contest that agrarian societies emit less of that life giving gas CO2 than industrialized ones? (Especially per capita). The united states. Fertilizing the world. Feel free to say thank you. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Co2 production is usually a product of economic activity, much less a product of population. When you divide Economic output by tonnes of CO2 you get emissions per unit of economic activitiy. On that basis: Netherlands: 3,619 EU: 3,490 Germany: 3,318 Israel: 2,479 US: 2,291 Thats right - per unit of economic output, the US pollutes about 1/3 less than the EU. Nonetheless.. it would be refreshing if you europeans would cut your own hypocrisy and start cutting your emissions, instead of pointing your fingers at the US. And here are some figures that are in conflict with yours (And note the info isn't Wiki and the data is provided by a US source) - CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita) Carbon dioxide emissions are those stemming from the burning of fossil fuels and the manufacture of cement. They include carbon dioxide produced during consumption of solid, liquid, and gas fuels and gas flaring. Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, Environmental Sciences Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Tennessee, United States. Catalog Sources World Development Indicators Country name 2009 2010 Afghanistan 0.2 0.3 Albania 1.2 1.4 Algeria 3.4 3.3 Andorra 6.6 6.6 Angola 1.5 1.6 Antigua and Barbuda 5.8 5.9 Argentina 4.5 4.5 Armenia 1.5 1.4 Aruba 22.6 22.8 Australia 18.1 16.9 Austria 7.4 8.0 Azerbaijan 4.8 5.1 Bahamas, The 4.6 6.8 Bahrain 20.3 19.3 Bangladesh 0.4 0.4 Barbados 5.8 5.4 Belarus 6.3 6.6 Belgium 9.7 10.0 Belize 1.4 1.4 Benin 0.5 0.5 Bermuda 7.1 7.3 Bhutan 0.6 0.7 Bolivia 1.4 1.5 Bosnia and Herzeg 7.9 8.1 Botswana 2.3 2.7 Brazil 1.9 2.2 Brunei Darussalam 23.1 22.9 Bulgaria 5.6 5.9 Burkina Faso 0.1 0.1 Burundi 0.0 0.0 Cambodia 0.3 0.3 Cameroon 0.3 0.4 Canada 15.2 14.6 Cape Verde 0.6 0.7 Cayman Islands 10.8 10.6 Central African Rep 0.1 0.1 Chad 0.0 0.0 Chile 4.0 4.2 China 5.8 6.2 Colombia 1.5 1.6 Comoros 0.2 0.2 Congo, Dem. Rep. 0.0 0.0 Congo, Rep. 0.5 0.5 Costa Rica 1.7 1.7 Cote d'Ivoire 0.3 0.3 Croatia 4.9 4.7 Cuba 2.6 3.4 Cyprus 7.5 7.0 Czech Republic 10.3 10.6 Denmark 8.1 8.3 Djibouti 0.6 0.6 Dominica 1.8 1.9 Dominican Republic 2.1 2.1 Ecuador 2.1 2.2 Egypt, Arab Rep. 2.6 2.6 El Salvador 1.0 1.0 Equatorial Guinea 6.8 6.7 Eritrea 0.1 0.1 Estonia 11.0 13.7 Ethiopia 0.1 0.1 Faeroe Islands 13.5 14.3 Fiji 1.0 1.5 Finland 10.0 11.5 France 5.5 5.6 French Polynesia 3.3 3.3 Gabon 0.1 1.7 Gambia, The 0.3 0.3 Georgia 1.4 1.4 Germany 8.9 9.1 Ghana 0.3 0.4 Greece 8.4 7.7 Greenland 9.9 11.1 Grenada 2.4 2.5 Guatemala 0.8 0.8 Guinea 0.1 0.1 Guinea-Bissau 0.2 0.2 Guyana 2.0 2.2 Haiti 0.2 0.2 Honduras 1.1 1.1 Hong Kong, China 5.3 5.2 Hungary 4.9 5.1 Iceland 6.4 6.2 India 1.7 1.7 Indonesia 1.9 1.8 Iran, Islamic Rep. 7.9 7.7 Iraq 3.5 3.7 Ireland 9.1 8.9 Israel 9.0 9.3 Italy 6.7 6.7 Jamaica 3.2 2.6 Japan 8.6 9.2 Jordan 3.6 3.4 Kazakhstan 13.3 15.2 Kenya 0.3 0.3 Kiribati 0.4 0.6 Korea, Dem. Rep. 3.1 2.9 Korea, Rep. 10.4 11.5 Kuwait 28.7 31.3 Kyrgyz Republic 1.2 1.2 Lao PDR 0.3 0.3 Latvia 3.0 3.4 Lebanon 4.9 4.7 Lesotho 0.0 0.0 Liberia 0.1 0.2 Libya 11.3 9.8 Lithuania 3.8 4.1 Luxembourg 20.6 21.4 Macao SAR, China 2.5 1.9 Macedonia, FYR 5.4 5.2 Madagascar 0.1 0.1 Malawi 0.1 0.1 Malaysia 7.3 7.7 Maldives 3.3 3.3 Mali 0.0 0.0 Malta 6.0 6.2 Marshall Islands 2.0 2.0 Mauritania 0.6 0.6 Mauritius 3.0 3.2 Mexico 3.8 3.8 Micronesia, Fed. Sts. 1.0 1.0 Moldova 1.3 1.4 Mongolia 4.1 4.2 Montenegro 2.9 4.2 Morocco 1.6 1.6 Mozambique 0.1 0.1 Myanmar 0.2 0.2 Namibia 1.5 1.5 Nepal 0.1 0.1 Netherlands 10.3 11.0 New Caledonia 11.6 15.7 New Zealand 7.5 7.2 Nicaragua 0.8 0.8 Niger 0.1 0.1 Nigeria 0.5 0.5 Norway 9.7 11.7 Oman 15.1 20.4 Pakistan 0.9 0.9 Palau 10.3 10.6 Panama 2.4 2.6 Papua New Guinea 0.5 0.5 Paraguay 0.7 0.8 Peru 1.6 2.0 Philippines 0.8 0.9 Poland 7.8 8.3 Portugal 5.4 4.9 Qatar 42.3 40.3 Romania 3.7 3.7 Russian Federation 11.1 12.2 Rwanda 0.1 0.1 Samoa 0.9 0.9 Sao Tome & Prin. 0.5 0.6 Saudi Arabia 16.1 17.0 Senegal 0.5 0.5 Serbia 6.3 6.3 Seychelles 8.7 7.8 Sierra Leone 0.1 0.1 Singapore 5.0 2.7 Slovak Republic 6.3 6.6 Slovenia 7.5 7.5 Solomon Islands 0.4 0.4 Somalia 0.1 0.1 South Africa 10.2 9.2 Spain 6.3 5.9 Sri Lanka 0.6 0.6 St. Kitts and Nevis 5.0 4.8 St. Lucia 2.2 2.3 St. Vinc. & Gren. 1.8 1.9 Sudan 0.3 0.3 Suriname 4.7 4.5 Swaziland 0.9 0.9 Sweden 4.7 5.6 Switzerland 5.4 5.0 Syrian Arab Rep. 3.0 2.9 Tajikistan 0.4 0.4 Tanzania 0.1 0.2 Thailand 4.2 4.4 Timor-Leste 0.2 0.2 Togo 0.2 0.2 Tonga 1.7 1.5 Trinidad & Tobago 36.4 38.2 Tunisia 2.4 2.5 Turkey 3.9 4.1 Turkmenistan 9.7 10.5 Turks and Caicos Is. 5.3 5.2 Uganda 0.1 0.1 Ukraine 5.7 6.6 United Arab Em. 21.1 19.9 United Kingdom 7.7 7.9 United States 17.3 17.6 Uruguay 2.3 2.0 Uzbekistan 4.2 3.7 Vanuatu 0.5 0.5 Venezuela, RB 6.5 6.9 Vietnam 1.6 1.7 West Bank & Gaza 0.6 0.6 Yemen, Rep. 1.0 1.0 Zambia 0.2 0.2 Zimbabwe 0.7 0.7 And also note, every single European country produces LESS than the US!! In fact, there are very few countries that produce more than the US. Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC

Tkman117 -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 9:57:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Does anyone really contest that agrarian societies emit less of that life giving gas CO2 than industrialized ones? (Especially per capita). The united states. Fertilizing the world. Feel free to say thank you. Wow, were you paid to spread misinformation or something because this kind of claim is ridiculous. Honestly, where do you get this stuff? Conservapedia? If you need any information regarding CO2 as a pollutant, I've got a few sources for you. And before you discredit ALL of them as you most likely will, actually read them with an open mind, and if you have questions, go ahead and ask, I'm all ears. http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-advanced.htm http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124001537515830975 http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/environmental/200611CO2globalwarming.html http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/pollution-overview/

Phydeaux -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 10:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 In reply to your first point, I learned about models in general, not specifically climate models, in the last 2 months of university. I could give you the contact information for my prof who taught me, but I'd rather not give out private information to someone who would likely pester her with questions. But here is a good article from someone who deals with models on a regular basis. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/02/27/are-more-accurate-climate-change-models-worse/ As to your second point, I'm canadian not european, and lumping all of the Eu together as if it were one unified country is a bit disingenuous as each country has different outputs of CO2. That being said, neither Canada or the EU are claiming the ones to have clean hands. Not to mention that all this coming from "The Leaders of the Free World" is a bit of a laugh, if you guys are truly the leaders of the free world, you'd be taking the initiative by cutting emissions, instead of producing around 13% of the world's emissions and claiming we're the hypocrites. In reply to your points: 1. I wouldn't have known it was contested if I hadn't have read it, would I? 2. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/02/27/are-more-accurate-climate-change-models-worse/ says nothing about the models being accurate - or even more accurate. It does say a small bit about them being more realistic. Which, is a meaningless word in the context of models. One doesn't really care whether a model is realistic or not - one cares if it successfully models the data in question, as well as - can it be extrapolated to predict future data accurately. 3. No, I dont' instantly discredit any source you might name. I discredit the sources you named - for example the physicians site because their bias is well known. They are opposed to nuclear energy; opposed to coal; opposed to fracking; ie., they have a hopelessly leftist bent. 4. People have been lighting water on fire for thousands of years. For example: george washington. Methane is naturally given off in the decomposition of biological materials - and we have billions and billions emitted from swamps, tundra, river beds and sea floors all the time. The fact that someone can light their water on fire makes for an incendiary demonstration. However, methane in water is essentially harmless. Certainly not a "massive" problem. The latest statistics in mortality for power politicizes the data "guessing" at the number of deaths caused by breathing polutants (fine science that). But if you track actual deaths - the number is very very low. I've read the EPA reviews on a number of incidents - usually the complaints are found to be baseless. 5. As to "Honestly, if I were you I'd be curious enough to find out WHY people think there are health issues instead of shamelessly claiming that said people are liars. Have you even seen this stuff? " I've seen this stuff dozens of times. If I were a farmer and having livestock deaths more than usual - sure I'd be pissed, and I'd try to make a claim on them. If I saw anyone slitting a retaining pond - I'd shoot the bastards. I have no question that there are individual bad actors. But I also have no question that, on the whole, its one of the best choices we've got since the wacko's have pretty much shut down nuclear.

Phydeaux -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/5/2014 10:15:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Does anyone really contest that agrarian societies emit less of that life giving gas CO2 than industrialized ones? (Especially per capita). The united states. Fertilizing the world. Feel free to say thank you. Wow, were you paid to spread misinformation or something because this kind of claim is ridiculous. Honestly, where do you get this stuff? Conservapedia? If you need any information regarding CO2 as a pollutant, I've got a few sources for you. And before you discredit ALL of them as you most likely will, actually read them with an open mind, and if you have questions, go ahead and ask, I'm all ears. http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-advanced.htm http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB124001537515830975 http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/environmental/200611CO2globalwarming.html http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/pollution-overview/ What kind of claim exactly are you saying I'm making? That CO2 is a life giving gas? Have you really never heard of photosynthesis? Feel free to point out anything I said that is demonstrably wrong. Moving on to your articles. The IPCC says CO2 causes 'catastrophic' global warming. And its caused by man. Forget the fact that the earth has been through the same warming every 425,000 years. Forget the fact that the 'catastrophic' warming is 1/4 what the IPCC predicted it would be. Forget the fact that the princeton report said - even if global warming as predicted were true - the best policy would be to do nothing for 50 years. Forget the fact that we've had stronger warming in the 20's-30's. And in other times in our history as well. Forget the fact that the catastrophic warming is .0075 degrees per year. yep.. less than 1 degree if you project it out 100 years. Forget the fact that renewable energy has been a disaster in spain, in germany. Forget the fact that england dumps 50% of its renewable energy because it doesn't occur well. A lefty president gets in office and he and his lefty contributors say - hey.. power is bad. Spank Coal! Renewable is good. And so kowtowing to said president the EPA makes rules. Seriously, I read your websites. They are all at a rudimentary level -so what part of this do you think requires me to ask any questions?

Hillwilliam -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/6/2014 1:51:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux What kind of claim exactly are you saying I'm making? That CO2 is a life giving gas? Have you really never heard of photosynthesis? You may be a vegetable, the rest of us aren't.[:D]

vincentML -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/6/2014 2:19:35 PM)
quote: Of course, my grand kids will have the pleasure of knowing that the two parcels of land I own will be a hell of a lot closer to the beach than they are now. Do them a favor then and make a land swap in Alaska.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/6/2014 7:57:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Of course, the current drought in Texas happens to coincide with the hottest years on record in the last decade. I think you're getting 27 feet of snow on Wednesday so.....relax.

papassion -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/7/2014 11:04:50 AM)
Everytime somebody makes a comment on a hot spell or drought, along comes a record breaking cold spell! I realize you can't use one event as a model, but the "global warming" crowd are using a microspocic upward piece of a millions of years graph, as proving their case.

papassion -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/7/2014 11:17:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Right here my friend http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus Relax, a thousand years or so ago, 100% of the scientists thought the earth was flat.

servantforuse -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/7/2014 11:28:08 AM)
The OP is a ' polar vortex ' denier.

PeonForHer -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/7/2014 12:33:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: papassion quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Right here my friend http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus Relax, a thousand years or so ago, 100% of the scientists thought the earth was flat. No they didn't. That was only ever a myth.

Hillwilliam -> RE: The conservatives are right, there is no climate change happening.... (1/7/2014 12:34:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: papassion quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Right here my friend http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus Relax, a thousand years or so ago, 100% of the scientists thought the earth was flat. No they didn't. That was only ever a myth. It appears a few people still do believe it.

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