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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 8:19:55 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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I couldn't watch that show. At first I was curious, after all how does she manage to run a home with all those kids. Then little things started waving red flags at me, like the assigning each baby to an older child. They are your children not your built in babysitter. Then I learned they use something called blanket training for their infants. They put the baby on the blanket and every time they get off they get spanked hard on the side of the leg and placed back on the blanket. The baby soon learns to associate pain with getting off the blanket and will stay on it. They are also the weird type of homeschoolers I have come across now and then that I tend to stay away from and a big reason why I will not associate with christian homeschool groups. There are some weirdos out there in those groups that scare me far more then anyone in a BDSM group.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 9:06:04 AM

shiftyw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

As MercTech mentioned there are special laws when it comes to farms.

I never felt abused because I got paid actual working wages. When we had the dairy farm I was relugated to feeding the cows and shovelling shit. Do you want to know why I had that job while my older brother and my father just had to milk the cows?

It's becuase sometimes cows get a little testy when they are milked. A 1200 lb cow can kick you so hard your grandchildren can feel it. That's why my little brother and I got the unglamorous jobs: so we wouldn't be killed.

In OP's situation though- they are taking care of other people's horses, and since its a breeding operation- I assume they have stallions around. Like I said, it might not be abuse, but I wouldn't be surprised if a client or boarder of theirs reported it just to cover their own behinds. You don't want your stallion to bite/kick the barn owners kid into oblivion while the kid is doing "chores" (rather than willingly working and putting themselves in harms way). And I'm willing to bet that the boarding stables insurance isn't aware of them using some underage labor. They are caring for animals that aren't the barn owners, and unless you know a horse personally, they can be unpredictable.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 9:19:40 AM

crazyml

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Meh... as others have pointed out, there's a difference between doing household chores, and working for a family business.

Now, I'd maintain that lending a hand to support the family business could still be simple "chores" - but as soon as there's a question of liability, insurance, etc it all gets pretty gnarly.

Personally, Give my boys chores - cleaning up, washing the dishes, mowing the lawn - But if I give them "work" like digging holes for fence posts then I pay them the going rate. I don't really give them much choice mind you.

In the case you've described my (unqualified and inexpert) opinion would really depend... how many hours is the child working? - If it's "help for a couple of hours cleaning out the stalls" on a Saturday morning then that feels like "chores". If it's "get up at 4 every morning and work for three hours before school" that feels like "work".

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 9:31:49 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

A 1200 lb cow can kick you so hard your grandchildren can feel it.

What grandchildren?

We had goats when I was growing up. I helping with milking and mucking, but never to the extent that it interfered with school.

Jeff - can you get the details? How many hours per day is quite relevant, plus ages of the children, etc., etc.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 1/6/2014 9:34:01 AM >

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 9:41:16 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I thought, might as well check a source... link to federal law on minors employed in farm work:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/childlabor102.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,792

State laws will be more variable.

Here's the OP's state of Texas: http://agsafety.tamu.edu/files/2011/06/CHILD-LABOR-IN-TEXAS-AGRICULTURE1.pdf

Under age 16 cannot work more than 28 hours per week.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 9:44:08 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

Yuck. I am sorry you grew up like that. Being a homeschooling parent I come across some of the crazier sects of homeschoolers now and then. One was trying to tell me that as long as I had children in the house there was no reason why I had to do any housework at all. I back away from them just as fast as I did the ones who told me I should be whipping my 4 month old infant for wiggling during a diaper change or when she cried for me while telling her with a smile on my face, now we are going to be cheerful.

Yikes. Sounds like they've bought into that 'Train up a child' trainwreck. How does every instinct not scream at them that this is wrong? How can an infant be naughty and even if they could, how is hitting them a good idea? Not to mention the horror of entirely invalidating the child's emotions.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 10:25:25 AM

jlf1961

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The only stables he mucks are the ones where HIS horses are, they are also the only ones he feeds. He is also responsible for his tack and saddles, carry the house garbage out and feed the dogs.

I was asked by CPS for a statement since I have been over there a lot the last few months.

There is one appy stud that actually seeks out the boy, not to hurt but to get the child's attention. With everyone else, that stud is a royal pain in the ass, trying to bite, step on you and kick. When it comes to the boy, he is an equine teddy bear.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 11:22:21 AM

MAINEiacMISTRESS

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In natural societies small children help with food gathering and preparation, later on they help care for their younger siblings, hunt with their fathers, cook food, etc. EVERYONE BEING INVOLVED, IT'S ALL PART OF BEING A FAMILY.
I grew up helping on the neighbors' dairy farm from a very young age. I mucked cow stalls (which is much more disgusting than cleaning horse stalls), I helped bring calves into the world and later train them to halter-lead (and would often come home wearing clothes soaked in amniotic fluid and green calf diarrhea). I carried bales of hay and shoveled shavings. I also helped My sister with her horses from as young as kindergarten. I helped Dad weld in his auto repair shop by holding things still (one of the first things I remember learning was "Don't look at the blue light"), I fetched tools like a nurse, LOL, and cleaned old greasy engine and machine parts in a big pan of gasoline he had in the corner.

I don't agree with parents being abusive and OVERworking their children, however I do strongly believe that kids BENEFIT from being "incorporated" into the parents' business. I know several families who raised their kids this way. These kids learn hands-on life skills early in life, and have an easier transition from childhood to adulthood when it comes to getting jobs. It also allows families to have closer ties to one another, since kids are with their parents and under parental supervision for more hours. You don't see this as much in modern American households, but it's often present in immigrant families. Several families owning local Chinese restaurants have their kids there after school. They do their homework at a corner table, answer phones, and use the cash register. These things teach valuable social skills (being comfortable talking to strangers, taking food orders, disciplining themselves to be polite) as well as math and business management. The kids still have sports and other afterschool activities, as well as friends, but they also have a very strong bond with family, and don't have this feeling of entitlement that other kids have.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 11:58:42 AM

shiftyw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only stables he mucks are the ones where HIS horses are, they are also the only ones he feeds. He is also responsible for his tack and saddles, carry the house garbage out and feed the dogs.

I was asked by CPS for a statement since I have been over there a lot the last few months.

There is one appy stud that actually seeks out the boy, not to hurt but to get the child's attention. With everyone else, that stud is a royal pain in the ass, trying to bite, step on you and kick. When it comes to the boy, he is an equine teddy bear.

I don't believe what they are doing is abuse. I just can see how it got reported. And having been around horses and worked in several stables, I can tell you liability is a nightmare. In my last stable, I was hired to muck and groom. A riding instructor asked me to help children go get horses out of the field if she was busy teaching- it was not part of my job description, and I wouldn't do it, cause no one wants to be held responsible for someone elses child if they get maimed (and this was a terrible barn with countless problems, it wasn't the horses fault, the owners just had no business running that facility). It likely got reported because one of their clients felt really uncomfortable/unsafe around the children. CPS will probably investigate and it will be nothing.

I have a neighbor who believes he is a "thrown clear" kinda guy, so he doesn't wear his seatbelt, do you think insurance gives a shit because he thinks he's special?
Same goes for that kid, insurance doesn't care if he is "special" to the horse. If that stud has an off day, its a problem.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 1:17:58 PM

MsMJAY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only stables he mucks are the ones where HIS horses are, they are also the only ones he feeds. He is also responsible for his tack and saddles, carry the house garbage out and feed the dogs.

I was asked by CPS for a statement since I have been over there a lot the last few months.

There is one appy stud that actually seeks out the boy, not to hurt but to get the child's attention. With everyone else, that stud is a royal pain in the ass, trying to bite, step on you and kick. When it comes to the boy, he is an equine teddy bear.

I don't believe what they are doing is abuse. I just can see how it got reported. And having been around horses and worked in several stables, I can tell you liability is a nightmare. In my last stable, I was hired to muck and groom. A riding instructor asked me to help children go get horses out of the field if she was busy teaching- it was not part of my job description, and I wouldn't do it, cause no one wants to be held responsible for someone elses child if they get maimed (and this was a terrible barn with countless problems, it wasn't the horses fault, the owners just had no business running that facility). It likely got reported because one of their clients felt really uncomfortable/unsafe around the children. CPS will probably investigate and it will be nothing.

I have a neighbor who believes he is a "thrown clear" kinda guy, so he doesn't wear his seatbelt, do you think insurance gives a shit because he thinks he's special?
Same goes for that kid, insurance doesn't care if he is "special" to the horse. If that stud has an off day, its a problem.

I looked at the DOL link that was in an earlier post. According to the link a child under the age of 16 cannot work in a number of places on a farm that are considered too hazardous. One of those places is:

4. Working on a farm in a yard, pen, or stall occupied by a:
a. bull, boar, or stud horse maintained for breeding purposes;
b. a sow with suckling pigs, or a cow with a newborn calf (with umbilical cord present).

Since it was said in the OP that they breed horses, that is probably how they got reported. Someone may have thought he was working around studs.

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 1:51:11 PM

shiftyw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The only stables he mucks are the ones where HIS horses are, they are also the only ones he feeds. He is also responsible for his tack and saddles, carry the house garbage out and feed the dogs.

I was asked by CPS for a statement since I have been over there a lot the last few months.

There is one appy stud that actually seeks out the boy, not to hurt but to get the child's attention. With everyone else, that stud is a royal pain in the ass, trying to bite, step on you and kick. When it comes to the boy, he is an equine teddy bear.

I don't believe what they are doing is abuse. I just can see how it got reported. And having been around horses and worked in several stables, I can tell you liability is a nightmare. In my last stable, I was hired to muck and groom. A riding instructor asked me to help children go get horses out of the field if she was busy teaching- it was not part of my job description, and I wouldn't do it, cause no one wants to be held responsible for someone elses child if they get maimed (and this was a terrible barn with countless problems, it wasn't the horses fault, the owners just had no business running that facility). It likely got reported because one of their clients felt really uncomfortable/unsafe around the children. CPS will probably investigate and it will be nothing.

I have a neighbor who believes he is a "thrown clear" kinda guy, so he doesn't wear his seatbelt, do you think insurance gives a shit because he thinks he's special?
Same goes for that kid, insurance doesn't care if he is "special" to the horse. If that stud has an off day, its a problem.

I looked at the DOL link that was in an earlier post. According to the link a child under the age of 16 cannot work in a number of places on a farm that are considered too hazardous. One of those places is:

4. Working on a farm in a yard, pen, or stall occupied by a:
a. bull, boar, or stud horse maintained for breeding purposes;
b. a sow with suckling pigs, or a cow with a newborn calf (with umbilical cord present).

Since it was said in the OP that they breed horses, that is probably how they got reported. Someone may have thought he was working around studs.

Ah thank you!
I'm on a weird wireless network with stuff blocked all over the web (I can't see anyone's pics right now...) cause they have kids...so navigating to find a source has been hard for me.

From OP's last post- it sounds as though a specific stud horse seeks him out and he is around studs- at least incidentally.
I guess it seems to me, the report is legitimate enough to warrant an investigation...

ETA- Grammar issues.

< Message edited by shiftyw -- 1/6/2014 1:52:08 PM >

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RE: Uh when did it become child abuse... - 1/6/2014 7:41:38 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

To give your kids chores?

I have not been able to verify it, so I dont swear it is gospel, but a member of a local group I belong to swears that CPS got a complaint because she was making her kid do chores.

She is a single mother who is living with her parents, who own a horse operation, breeding, training and boarding.

According to her, she was told that having him help feed and muck stalls is considered child abuse as it violates child labor laws.

If this is true, I have a damn good idea what is wrong with kids today besides the fact parents are afraid to discipline them.