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TheHeretic -> Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/6/2014 9:59:40 PM)

A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.

quote:


Millennials have been especially hard-hit by the downturn, which is probably why so many people in this generation (like myself) regard capitalism with a level of suspicion that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. But that egalitarian impulse isn't often accompanied by concrete proposals about how to get out of this catastrophe. Here are a few things we might want to start fighting for, pronto, if we want to grow old in a just, fair society, rather than the economic hellhole our parents have handed us.

1. Guaranteed Work for Everybody

2. Social Security for All

3. Take Back The Land

4. Make Everything Owned by Everybody

5. A Public Bank in Every State


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103


I enjoyed the read, and I'm curious what others think.





joether -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 4:17:50 AM)

Stuff like this comes up during each recession. You know that as well as I do, right? That the 'have nots' demand what the 'haves' have but are unwilling to give up in any form (i.e. a hoarder). That normal means are not working, the use of government is used to force those people to be removed of their assets for 'the good of mankind'. Again, we both know this right?

Found this one off another forum user a day or two ago:

Would Your Salary be better under Socialism?

The ideas expressed in the view are like the ideas of the author your giving as an example. Both of them touch on the concepts of Maslow's Hierachy of Needs

People are out of work, their slowly losing ground on their homes, cars, and even basic nessitities while the rather honest view is that the 1% live in a totally different reality. Not only that, but this 1% basically controls and owns everything. Is it really a Republic anymore? Or a feudal system in which 'power' is defined by who has the most money? An that the money acquired came as a result of that evil Capitalism to which Communism is usually thought of as the opposite?

Each economic system when wholly used (i.e. capitalism, socialism, communism, etc.) do have faults. Communism does not take the limited concept of resources into accounting, nor how deeply greed can destroy with capitalism. Which is why laws and regulations are developed to keep these flaws from destroying the whole of the system. But from an American standpoint, it is deeply concerning when the 1% holds more political power over the nation than up to 80% of the rest of the nation. I do not see much good coming from such a system for America's future. So, an economic system is one that might combined parts of each into the whole framework. Added with laws and regulations, with a healthy dose of wisdom, could very well make the system work well for the nation. Would take adjustments over time. An to keep asking, "What helps Americans grow on the individual level, NOT, as a whole"?

'Whole' means individuals can slip through the cracks. Over time as we've seen with healthcare, has proved its own disaster on many levels. Yet, when individuals grows, the whole of the community grows with it. Its trying to help the individuals grows in the first place that is the tough problem to find solutions. I feel government is one of the best mechanics to get this process to push forward. Those corporations and companies in tune with the hardships Americans face, are another source of growth. Political groups that strive to help fellow Americans live better, healthier and happier lives, is a third source. There is no 'silver bullet' solutions. What works for one may not help a dime for someone else. But it will take the whole nation of individuals helping other individuals worst off then themselves, to get things to be 'better'.





DomKen -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 5:23:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.

quote:


Millennials have been especially hard-hit by the downturn, which is probably why so many people in this generation (like myself) regard capitalism with a level of suspicion that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. But that egalitarian impulse isn't often accompanied by concrete proposals about how to get out of this catastrophe. Here are a few things we might want to start fighting for, pronto, if we want to grow old in a just, fair society, rather than the economic hellhole our parents have handed us.

1. Guaranteed Work for Everybody

2. Social Security for All

3. Take Back The Land

4. Make Everything Owned by Everybody

5. A Public Bank in Every State


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103


I enjoyed the read, and I'm curious what others think.



I find the push back against Wall street interesting. the public bank movement might just get somewhere. Bringing back the savings and loan concept where my money stays in my community rather than going into some big banks stock market manipulations is appealing.




jlf1961 -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 6:07:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.

quote:


Millennials have been especially hard-hit by the downturn, which is probably why so many people in this generation (like myself) regard capitalism with a level of suspicion that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. But that egalitarian impulse isn't often accompanied by concrete proposals about how to get out of this catastrophe. Here are a few things we might want to start fighting for, pronto, if we want to grow old in a just, fair society, rather than the economic hellhole our parents have handed us.

1. Guaranteed Work for Everybody There was unemployment and shortages in the "Socialist" countries, so this is bullshit

2. Social Security for All Social security would be fine, IF, congress could keep their freaking fingers out of it.

3. Take Back The Land Another stupid idea. Take it back from who? Industrial Farm Corporations? The Family Farm owners? Give me a break.

4. Make Everything Owned by Everybody Oh, so we go to a Soviet Union style system? It failed there, remember? China, a socialist country is embracing capitalism, and Cuba is still driving 57 chevys.

5. A Public Bank in Every State We have one, it is called the Federal Reserve. Banks do not exist just as a place to save money, but to make money. It is called investment, and that is what keeps and economy going.


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103


I enjoyed the read, and I'm curious what others think.




I didnt read the article, after seeing the bullet points you posted. As a Conservative Liberal moderate, (I support issues on both sides of the line) I believe in capitalism, I believe in an honest wage for an honest days work, and I believe in a fair tax system. France passed a law recently that will allow a 75% tax rate on the wealthy, that is bullshit. we could the government's revenue problems by closing loop holes in Corporate Tax codes, and still be fair.

Kill the windfall profits tax, cut the inheritance taxes, and make R&D costs tax deductible.

I believe in a fair wage, but I have a problem with unions demanding wages that put their members in a high 5 figure income bracket. Fair pay is one thing, but $30 dollars an hour is something altogether different. Oil Rig workers dont get that pay, and they are in a very hazardous job, unless they are working off shore.

This country needs an overhaul, not on the conservative plan or the liberal plan but an intelligent compromise between the two.

Of course the day that happens, the Four Horsemen will be loosed, Kim Kardashian will actually contribute something worthwhile to society, pigs will fly,
Deborah Ann Woll will fall madly in love with me having never even knew I existed, I will be transformed into the sexiest man alive, and hell will freeze over, all at these things happening simultaneously, followed immediately by an asteroid the size of Greenland hitting the earth.

And I am being optimistic.




Zonie63 -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 6:08:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.


I checked the article to make sure, but I didn't find the word "communist" anywhere in the article. There were a few comments containing that word, but the article itself never directly said to embrace communist principles.

quote:


Millennials have been especially hard-hit by the downturn, which is probably why so many people in this generation (like myself) regard capitalism with a level of suspicion that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. But that egalitarian impulse isn't often accompanied by concrete proposals about how to get out of this catastrophe. Here are a few things we might want to start fighting for, pronto, if we want to grow old in a just, fair society, rather than the economic hellhole our parents have handed us.


The author does have a point here. Considering how much the U.S. had after World War II and our relative position in the world, the fact that it's been all pissed away so relatively quickly is quite an accomplishment. The millennials have every right to be pissed at the previous generations who fucked up a good thing. Our economic demise is purely our own fault; we certainly can't blame it on the communists. After all, we also supposedly "won the Cold War," so what excuses can there be for such a poor economy?

quote:

quote:


1. Guaranteed Work for Everybody

2. Social Security for All

3. Take Back The Land

4. Make Everything Owned by Everybody

5. A Public Bank in Every State


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103


I enjoyed the read, and I'm curious what others think.


I'm not sure that I agree with all of the proposals here, although they're worth thinking about. I don't think we necessarily have to "take back" the land, although I agree that some serious reforms in that area are necessary. Perhaps there might be ways to impose increasing taxes on absentee landlords and unused/vacant properties, such as doubling their property tax each month until they sell their property or utilize it for productive purposes.

The sad thing about the world's history with communism is that most of what happened was really so unnecessary. If only the wealthy, privileged classes had been willing to give just a little tiny bit, it could have avoided a lot of problems and prevented things from getting to such extremes. Even here in the United States, we've had labor unrest mainly due to stubborn, greedy bosses who said "We ain't payin' those bums one more penny!" These people resorted to violence and murder for the sake of higher profits, and then they seriously wonder why there are "communists" who come out of the woodwork? Is it really that difficult to figure out?




TheHeretic -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 6:53:44 AM)

Jlf - the article has some entertainment value. I got a kick out of the writing, as the author explored the points a bit.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 7:44:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.

I checked the article to make sure, but I didn't find the word "communist" anywhere in the article. There were a few comments containing that word, but the article itself never directly said to embrace communist principles.


Why would the authors describe the principles as Communist? That is more likely to stop people from reading the article than it is to draw them in. And, it's probably more likely to stop a reader than it is to keep a reader.

It doesn't change whether they are Communist principles, though.




cloudboy -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 8:31:23 AM)

I don't see any pushback.

As a side note, most of the predictions in the Communist Manifesto came true.

Also, when you don't have an effective democracy to help apportion the economic pie, you have problems because those seeking change have to seek a revolution.

What we see now in the USA is how workers can't really get ahead and are treading water -- but despite this I don't see any pushback. Occupy Wall Street all but disappeared.




Zonie63 -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 10:11:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
A fun piece showed up in Rolling Stone - an appeal to millenials to embrace communist principles.

I checked the article to make sure, but I didn't find the word "communist" anywhere in the article. There were a few comments containing that word, but the article itself never directly said to embrace communist principles.


Why would the authors describe the principles as Communist? That is more likely to stop people from reading the article than it is to draw them in. And, it's probably more likely to stop a reader than it is to keep a reader.

It doesn't change whether they are Communist principles, though.


I wouldn't make that assumption. After all, the Communists didn't actually invent these principles outlined here.




papassion -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 10:49:15 AM)

The sad part is, there are more than a few adults who believe all this "divide the wealth," give everybody a gauranteed income, bullshit!




Moonhead -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 10:53:53 AM)

Almost as ridiculous as this notion that free enterprise can organise itself in everybody's best interests without any regulation, yes.




Zonie63 -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 11:02:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I don't see any pushback.

As a side note, most of the predictions in the Communist Manifesto came true.

Also, when you don't have an effective democracy to help apportion the economic pie, you have problems because those seeking change have to seek a revolution.

What we see now in the USA is how workers can't really get ahead and are treading water -- but despite this I don't see any pushback. Occupy Wall Street all but disappeared.


Occupy Wall Street was just a harbinger of things to come. The angst is still out there and not going away anytime soon. I agree that there's no real organized pushback of any kind. Both the left and the right have been effectively bottled up on their own merry-go-rounds, carefully picking their battles so as to not rock the boat or foment any of the pushback in question. In doing so, the Powers That Be send a message that OWS is the furthest left that anyone can go, and the Tea Party is the furthest right that anyone can go.

I don't think there's going to be any revolution or anything like that. But there might very well be evolutionary changes as power shifts from one generation to another, as there usually are. Those who were born after the Cold War and the so-called "Evil Empire" just don't see things in the same way that the older generations see. They weren't conditioned to hate and fear the "godless communists" with the same intensity which existed during earlier periods in our history. In fact, many of the more staunch anti-communists from that era have been looked upon less than kindly by more contemporary perspectives. Goldwater, Nixon, McCarthy, Hoover, et al. - these guys and those like them have brought a pox on America's house - all in the name of anti-communism. Today's youth might look at things from that wider perspective, as they also have access to a wider global viewpoint than we ever did in our pre-internet, pre-cable days.





TheHeretic -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 7:49:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Stuff like this comes up during each recession. You know that as well as I do, right? That the 'have nots' demand what the 'haves' have but are unwilling to give up in any form (i.e. a hoarder). That normal means are not working, the use of government is used to force those people to be removed of their assets for 'the good of mankind'. Again, we both know this right?




I'm probably far more knowledgeable about the communist sales pitch than you could ever imagine, Joether.

As I said, I thought it was a fun read.

Each of the points used here, and all the rest, may sound good in the ear of the oppressed, and any organizer worth a damn can chatter endlessly on any of them, but all of it completely dodges the fatal flaw in the communist system - its foundation is a foolishly delusional view of human nature. We are not all happy, dumb, sheep. What gets left out of the sales pitch is the brutal totalitarianism required to evolve the New Soviet Man from the masses.




cloudboy -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 8:33:26 PM)


You don't really know much at all. The USSR and China simply used the terminology of Communism to enact Totalitarian states.

The USA and Western Europe took a different approach by:

Abolishing Child Labor
Enacting Minimum Wages
Establishing Public Education
Enacting 40 Hour Work Weeks
Progressive Income Taxes
Inheritance Taxes
Anti-Trust Laws
Centralized Banking Institutions

-----

Nothing that Marx or Engels wrote advocated for an authoritarian state -- it was Lenin -- arguably a heretic to true communism -- who developed the idea of an all-powerful, infallible Communist Party --- and this idea of one party surrounded by counter-revolutionaries and foreign enemies went on Steroids with Stalin and Mao. Those two were not Communists, they were dictators. Neither of these two represented "the people" in any way shape or form.




TheHeretic -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/7/2014 8:47:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The USSR and China simply used the terminology of Communism to enact Totalitarian states.




Are you trying to make a joke again?





Apocalypso -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/8/2014 6:03:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why would the authors describe the principles as Communist? That is more likely to stop people from reading the article than it is to draw them in. And, it's probably more likely to stop a reader than it is to keep a reader.

It doesn't change whether they are Communist principles, though.


They're small c communist, not capital C communist. I see no evidence that the writer is influenced by Leninism, let alone Stalinism. (In particular, the lack of a call for a vanguard party suggests that's not the place they're coming from).




Zonie63 -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/8/2014 6:14:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I'm probably far more knowledgeable about the communist sales pitch than you could ever imagine, Joether.

As I said, I thought it was a fun read.

Each of the points used here, and all the rest, may sound good in the ear of the oppressed, and any organizer worth a damn can chatter endlessly on any of them, but all of it completely dodges the fatal flaw in the communist system - its foundation is a foolishly delusional view of human nature. We are not all happy, dumb, sheep.


One could probably make the same argument about any political system.

quote:


What gets left out of the sales pitch is the brutal totalitarianism required to evolve the New Soviet Man from the masses.


I wouldn't deny the totalitarianism, but what often gets left out of that "sales pitch" are the circumstances which led to the totalitarianism in question. Russia was a traumatized country; there's no denying that. They'd been invaded countless times, ruled by foreign powers at times, other times ruled by oppressive Tsarist tyrants. By 1917, they were devastated by World War I, in which they had the highest losses. Just a few key reforms along with a modicum of political support from the Western Allies might have bolstered the Kerensky regime and prevented the Bolsheviks from taking power (and the Bolsheviks were just a single faction among many).

The subsequent Russian Civil War also was a key factor, even more than the "sales pitch." One thing that probably clinched the Bolsheviks' victory was the Western Allied intervention on the side of the counter-revolutionaries and former Tsarist leaders. More people rallied to the Bolshevik cause because they could then say they were fighting for Mother Russia against foreign invaders. Trotsky's oratory was also credited as a major factor in gaining recruits for the Red Army, which swelled to over 5 million during that conflict. Maybe that was also part of the "sales pitch," but keep in mind that these were battle-hardened veterans and people who had seen years of devastation and oppression. These were not starry-eyed, naive college kids living off mommy and daddy's trust fund.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that the Russian Empire was multi-national, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, and multi-lingual - all under the same regime with a lot of the non-Russian nationalities not being particularly thrilled with being part of it. That really had nothing to do with anyone's "sales pitch" as much as it was just a historical circumstance they faced.

As I mentioned before, success or failure for a country should not be credited to or blamed on any abstract "system," since that's an oversimplification. Whatever characteristics or individual "personality" a regime takes on would largely be attributed to their own historical circumstances, political traditions, and shared experiences - which invariably differ from nation to nation. The "system" is an incidental component, and hardly an indicator of a regime's intentions - any more than religion would be an indicator.

One thing I've observed that comes out of revolutionary extremism (regardless of whether it's on the left or right) is that the revolutionaries themselves often fall out and begin to prey on each other. This is what happened with the Bolsheviks, which were themselves a product of infighting within a larger faction of socialist revolutionaries. After Lenin's death, Stalin managed to wind up on top and sought to eliminate all the old Bolsheviks which he saw as rivals and possible threats to his power. Ironically, Stalin had no real "sales pitch." Within the party, he was just considered a "gray blur"; Trotsky called Stalin "the great mediocrity of the party." How he managed to gain power is an interesting study in party politics and the mechanics of raw "power" in human organizations. The actual sales pitch was rather clumsy, doltish, and obvious when presented to the masses.

I will give credit to Stalin in some areas. Russia did need to modernize and build up her industries, and Stalin did manage to push the country farther than they probably would have gone under another regime. Russia was still lagging behind the West and needed to catch up. There was some build-up of industry under the Imperial regime, but it was slow going. That crippled them in the Russo-Japanese War and in WW1. They were victorious in WW2, but at great cost and also with enormous devastation, although Stalin was partly responsible for starting that war by signing a pact with Hitler in 1939, so that's also a black mark against him.

However, as "systems" go, I'll also mention that, considering the amount of devastation, destruction, and loss of life they faced in the two World Wars, a Civil War - along with a long history of invasion and endless tragedy, they still managed to recover and be able to provide the basics of living, if not luxurious by Western standards. They made enormous strides in science and technology, and were the first ones to send a man into space. They were quite powerful and we well knew it. They were tough competition for us and held their own for quite a while. They weren't about to be trifled with or treated as a second-rate power. They didn't trust us for good reason, and we didn't trust them for good reason. The only real tragedy is that both sides allowed their own hotheads and warmongers to rise to the top, putting us into a geopolitical nightmare which we're still in to this day. I won't forget that about both sides, communists and capitalists. Both are to blame for how things turned out. But I will also grudgingly give credit to both sides where it is deserved.

The brutal totalitarianism is/was a consequence of many factors, and I don't have any illusions about the communists or what they did; the crimes they committed, the brutality, the murder of countless millions. I don't think anyone has forgotten that, but I think the circumstances today are different than they were in Russia in 1917. If a few key moderate economic reforms are proposed, it doesn't automatically mean that people are going to be shipped off to gulags by the millions. I've always found that "fear" to be a bit over the top and rather illogical when you look at it.

The only reason it might turn out that way is if the wealthy 1% turns out to be too stubborn. If they're not willing to give on at least a few issues, that may be a bit too reckless and intransigent on their part. That's how extremism happens; not because of a system or a sales pitch - but because of ideological intransigence which just escalates and begets more ideological intransigence.

Lenin's sales pitch was "peace, land, and bread." If that's all it took, then why the fuck couldn't the previous regime just give them peace, land, and bread? Revolutions are never caused by a sales pitch; they're caused by decades of mismanagement, bureaucratic corruption, and tyranny. The brutality usually follows as a consequence.






DesideriScuri -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/8/2014 6:42:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Almost as ridiculous as this notion that free enterprise can organise itself in everybody's best interests without any regulation, yes.


Who is trumpeting no regulation?




mnottertail -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/8/2014 6:47:51 AM)

No one is able to trumpet, but many are sounding the tocsin, and that is a matter of musical talent.

Someone pointed out fatal flaws in communism, and no one has pointed out the fatal flaws in capitalism, and the fatal flaws of libertarianism make that a non-starter, relegated to Ayn Rands two rather puerile books.


Pure systems will not survive in this world, we do not all act as our brothers keepers.




Moonhead -> RE: Call to the communists, in Rolling Stone (1/8/2014 7:30:28 AM)

Three books, Ron: you're forgetting Anthem (possibly because it's the single dullest sf novel ever written: it makes Ralph 24C41+ look like The Demolished Man by comparison...)




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