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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:04:09 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65

I have my opinions, and I state them but I will always be polite in doing so. My mother and the military instilled a bit of manners in me.
The gun jamming was a question, along with his prior acts, if proven, in regards to his confronting other movie goers.. it will go to his state of mind at the time.
I'm sorry, I don't buy into he was afraid for his life. He was not cornered with no means of escape. He was fifty percent responsible for the position which he allowed himself to stay into. That alone does not justify murder.

Being a retired police officer odds are he always carried.
This speaks to the fact that until attacked by Oulsen he did not use the weapon.
The gun jamming has not bearing as it clearly jammed upon ejecting the first round.
This means that the only adverse evidence it provides is that it can't be proven he wouldn't have fired
a second shot, but it in no way even indicates that he would have.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:07:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, the military sure didn't install any manners in the dead dude, did it?

If you read the first post on the thread, you may note that I'm quite ok with the shooter going off and dying in prison for his part in the incident.  Just don't paint the dead guy as an innocent bystander.

I saw the reports that the gun jammed as well.  So?  Do you think he was planning to shoot everyone else in the place?  One round did the job. 

I don't know if we'll ever get a follow up on the report about an earlier encounter.  The police get a lot of bad tips on crimes that get media attention, and most turn out to be meaningless. 

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:07:13 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:


he is going to have a very hard time if he utilizes stand your ground or self defense because he could retreat to a safe area.


Factually untrue.

The stand your ground law obviates the need to retreat. Specifically, under SYG if you have a right to be in a public place you do NOT have the requirement to retreat.

Ie. You may stand your ground. This doesn't change my mind that he is going to have a lot of scrutiny. Which I think is deserved.

If it turns out he wasn't in fear - he is in a shitload of trouble. Personally, I think eye witness testimony will be that he was angry, and that led to the drawing of the weapon.

Then the question becomes - was he in fear at the moment of pulling the trigger. Maybe, maybe not.

Should someone have the moral obligation to retreat if armed with a gun - but no obligation to retreat if armed with a knife?

Does the stand your ground rule (which should benefit minorities and women) give a significant benefit?

I think there will be a lot more commentary on it. But so far, I think so.

And just as I think the states are laboratories for the nation - I think it would be premature to discard SYG.


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/16/2014 10:11:12 PM >

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:18:45 PM   
DominantWoman65


Posts: 386
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Status: offline 		Most people I know don't carry their weapon in their pocket and that goes for retired and active police and military.
I think until all the facts are in all we can do is assume but who is to say who attacked who first... verbally or physically.
The gun jamming is pure speculation, which I think I am allowed to do since everyone seems to be forming their own ideas regarding the dead man and his actions.

I like to think that I am a responsible gun owner, and I hold every other gun owner to the same accountability. I probably could of, at one time used a justifiable defense and shot my ex husband, but I had a means of escape and I used it instead of taking a life so please do not tell me that this man had no means of retreat in a movie theater if he truly felt his life was in peril.

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:28:12 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Whether or not he had a means of retreat is irrelevant.  The whole foundation of "stand your ground" is that you don't have a legal obligation to do so.

As for speculating, why didn't the dead guy just turn off the phone, or step into the lobby, when another patron advised him the texting was a disturbance?  If he hadn't insisted on standing his ground, he'd still be alive, right?



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:28:57 PM   
DominantWoman65


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Status: offline 		As I stated in some of my earlier posts, they are both at fault but I will in no way agree that the end result is in anyway justified, or feel any bit of compassion for the man who I hope will spend the last of his natural life in prison.

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:32:51 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65

As I stated in some of my earlier posts, they are both at fault but I will in no way agree that the end result is in anyway justified, or feel any bit of compassion for the man who I hope will spend the last of his natural life in prison.


As I'll have no compassion for the asshole who couldn't believe somebody shot him for being a bully, and a miserable shit.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:40:28 PM   
DominantWoman65


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Status: offline 		I think the bullying went both ways but he was a bit of an ass for texting even if it was before the actual movie started.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/16/2014 10:46:20 PM   
DominantWoman65


Posts: 386
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Status: offline 		As far as stand your ground, as a woman who this law is supposed to benefit, I find it pathetic and morally incomprehensible.

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 3:05:05 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I dont see how SYG could be used as defence because someone threw popcorn. The report that the retired police chief has been involved in this a row over texting previously suggests he was used to getting his own way. I find it hard to believe anyone with his experience hadnt been in a confrontation before, so he should have at least been able to resist going for his gun.


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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 3:57:05 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65

As far as stand your ground, as a woman who this law is supposed to benefit, I find it pathetic and morally incomprehensible.

This, altho as a non american it doesnt apply but the sentiment is the same

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 10:35:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

When the human body experiences growing anger the frontal section of the brain (that which handles reason, wisdom, rational thought) shuts down and forces the back half of the brain to work double duty (it handles emotions). The person was already angry to begin with by the point the frontal half of the brain 'shuts down', the result is the back half determines the 'fight of flight' response and acts on it. Could this 71 year old been experiencing this concept? Hard to confirm. Yet, would fit the 'fight' section of using any and all attacks against what was threating the brain, including using a firearm for deadly force. Do we blame the individual? Yes, he lost control. Do we blame the firearm? Yes, it was the primary means of attack.

I think you pretty much got it right. But how can we blame him for losing control if the frontal cortex cedes control to the amygdala and the ex-cop acts? Seems that animal nature took over. I am raising an issue of free will here but I am not suggesting he was a biological robot. Hmmm. . .maybe in the moment he was. Just pondering. This question was posed in a non-threatening, gun free and popcorn free zone.


With a firearm comes a great deal of responsibility. Even if the person was in a state of blind rage, they are STILL responsible for how that weapon is used. Whether he bludgeon the other guy in the face or shot him, he is STILL responsible. Just because his body and mind did a normal human function is not an acceptable enough of an excuse. He had a firearm, it was used during an argument, and killed someone else. With no other information present, that person is guilty of murder! He is consider innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by his peers and afforded a lawyer if he can not afford one himself.

Perhaps he is responsible. I'm not sure. Say he is. To what degree of responsibility if he did not act willfully? We agree he did not. A whole bunch responsible? Somewhat responsible? A teeny tiny bit responsible? Serious questions to ponder. I am not smart-assing here.

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 11:21:10 AM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		FR

how I see the facts reported I'm more inclined in thinking the 71 year old acted not for fear but out of frustration, it is not reasonable to think he would be attacked when being in a cinema if there was not a row of seats at least movements were slowed down, and the victim wife was between them calming down his husband, he would have been forced to attack his spouse first. A popcorn bag is not painfull and not violence it is a provocation to humiliate. To me it looks more something like "this is battery, ah-ha I got you! ... and bang!", and this is the kind of dangerouse thinking process the stand your ground principle incentive.

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 11:33:38 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

how I see the facts reported I'm more inclined in thinking the 71 year old acted not for fear but out of frustration, it is not reasonable to think he would be attacked when being in a cinema if there was not a row of seats at least movements were slowed down, and the victim wife was between them calming down his husband, he would have been forced to attack his spouse first. A popcorn bag is not painfull and not violence it is a provocation to humiliate. To me it looks more something like "this is battery, ah-ha I got you! ... and bang!", and this is the kind of dangerouse thinking process the stand your ground principle incentive.

But we are trying to view the actions of a reasonable person not a sociopath.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 11:52:49 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		reasonable people do not kill other people

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RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 12:03:41 PM   
ExiledTyrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

reasonable people do not kill other people


Unless they're vegan... I mean, they eat the same stuff my food eats, it's reasonable that they'll taste like rabbit, right?

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 12:05:10 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		LMAO hang on Ive got just the pic for you!



_____________________________

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<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 12:09:35 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

reasonable people do not kill other people

Sometimes they do.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 12:15:17 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

reasonable people do not kill other people


My suspicion, I have to say, is that the standard required for the term 'reasonable' to apply to a given case of death by gunshot seems to drop as time goes on. In a major sense 'reason' isn't involved in lots of cases involving the act of drawing a gun and shooting it. 'Second nature', 'instinct', 'intuition', 'reflexes' - those are the things that come into play when a given action happens so quickly that there's no time to be properly reasonable.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Death penalty for being an asshole - 1/17/2014 12:23:27 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

reasonable people do not kill other people

What reasonable people don't do is bully and assault old men.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 180
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