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RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 12:36:30 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		human interactions with them on the day to day gets much of the priority, when you have been repeatedly cut.

Cuz you can take thousands out every day in a prossessing facility, and thousands out every what 20 years in a storage, that about right?

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(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 12:45:08 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
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I just don't understand how people can rationalize that the EPA itself hurts the average american. The EPA is there to keep your health as a priority, to keep you safe, and also keep the environment around you clean and safe. Yes, it does make things more difficult for businesses to get what they need done (eg. Royal Dutch Shell selling a site must undergo environmental site assessments and possible remediation of the ground beneath the site before selling it). The only reason why the EPA can harm someone is if it doesn't do what it was designed to do, by keeping people safe. Like DesideriScuri said earlier, the EPA did inspections of production facilities, not storage facilities, and most people would probably agree that it shouldn't matter, these facilities should all be inspected. While the EPA and Freedom industries should be to blame, it should also fall on Republicans because they're the ones who cut funding to the EPA and other government institutions, making it harder to do their jobs and keep people safe. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/house-gop-pushes-massive-cuts-to-epa-wildlife-and-arts

And to add to that, if the Democrats & Obama had the ability to veto these cuts and didn't, then they're just as equally to blame as the Republicans. But I'm unsure if this is something the current administration could or could not veto, would appreciate if some insight could be given for this.

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 1/15/2014 12:48:18 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 6:49:06 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Just ask those living in West Virginia.



Cloud....this ain't a WV gig....this is a gig related to inspections.

Pure and simple.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 6:50:29 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Boehner says you neeed less regulation!!!!!!!
Squeaking



Boehner's right.

But, you need more oversight.

(There's a difference).

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 6:54:35 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		ALso need more asshole companies actually performing to regulations so there isnt a need for much oversight....becuase they have....ethics
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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 7:51:18 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		How can you have any oversight if there are less regulations to oversight in the first place? It makes no sense. Regulations are there to protect every day people, not to just be a thorn in the side of industry. There are methods behind this madness, and if you took the time to actually understand WHY regulations are needed, you'll start seeing this madness as something much more sane and understandable.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 8:08:40 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
How can you have any oversight if there are less regulations to oversight in the first place? It makes no sense.


He's pointing out that regulations are useless if they aren't enforced and that the solution to problems sometimes isn't more red tape, it's just enforcing the tape that already exists.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 8:13:38 PM   
Tkman117


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Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		But if the regulation doesn't exist in the first place, such as in this case, where there are inspections of production facilities but no inspections of storage facilities, it kinda proves the point moot doesn't it? If the storage facilities aren't included in the regulations to be inspected, then simply enforcing the regulations already in place would have done nothing in this case.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 8:37:24 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

How can you have any oversight if there are less regulations to oversight in the first place? It makes no sense. Regulations are there to protect every day people, not to just be a thorn in the side of industry. There are methods behind this madness, and if you took the time to actually understand WHY regulations are needed, you'll start seeing this madness as something much more sane and understandable.


There isn't less regulation.

Less regulation has been proposed.

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 8:38:52 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
How can you have any oversight if there are less regulations to oversight in the first place? It makes no sense.


He's pointing out that regulations are useless if they aren't enforced and that the solution to problems sometimes isn't more red tape, it's just enforcing the tape that already exists.


Das wut I sayud.

(Perzakly).

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 8:40:30 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

But if the regulation doesn't exist in the first place, such as in this case, where there are inspections of production facilities but no inspections of storage facilities, it kinda proves the point moot doesn't it? If the storage facilities aren't included in the regulations to be inspected, then simply enforcing the regulations already in place would have done nothing in this case.


Where there are no (or lax) regulations and the existing regulations are ineffective, more and more stringent regulation may be necessary.

(That isn't however, what Boehner said).

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 9:18:06 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Very well said, and I agree, if the EPA is going to inspect facilities with dangerous chemicals, why discriminate between production and storage? The threat is still there no matter where the chemicals are or what process they are undergoing.


When you are simply storing chemicals, there is less of a threat of a spill, because there is less transfer of the chemicals. There should still, imo, be inspections and standards for storage of dangerous chemicals.


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(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/15/2014 11:00:28 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
FR
I just don't understand how people can rationalize that the EPA itself hurts the average american. The EPA is there to keep your health as a priority, to keep you safe, and also keep the environment around you clean and safe. Yes, it does make things more difficult for businesses to get what they need done (eg. Royal Dutch Shell selling a site must undergo environmental site assessments and possible remediation of the ground beneath the site before selling it). The only reason why the EPA can harm someone is if it doesn't do what it was designed to do, by keeping people safe. Like DesideriScuri said earlier, the EPA did inspections of production facilities, not storage facilities, and most people would probably agree that it shouldn't matter, these facilities should all be inspected. While the EPA and Freedom industries should be to blame, it should also fall on Republicans because they're the ones who cut funding to the EPA and other government institutions, making it harder to do their jobs and keep people safe. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/house-gop-pushes-massive-cuts-to-epa-wildlife-and-arts
And to add to that, if the Democrats & Obama had the ability to veto these cuts and didn't, then they're just as equally to blame as the Republicans. But I'm unsure if this is something the current administration could or could not veto, would appreciate if some insight could be given for this.


The devil is in the details, Tkman. It's not that EPA regulations are all unnecessary, but it's that there are plenty that aren't necessary. No one on this board, iirc, supports having no regulations at all.

Markets won't function efficiently when there are no regulations. But, when there are too many regulations, it will also reduce market efficiency. That's where it hurts the average American.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/16/2014 4:52:45 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The devil is in the details, Tkman. It's not that EPA regulations are all unnecessary, but it's that there are plenty that aren't necessary. No one on this board, iirc, supports having no regulations at all.

Markets won't function efficiently when there are no regulations. But, when there are too many regulations, it will also reduce market efficiency. That's where it hurts the average American.


You generally know this DS, so this is for other's benefit....

A regulation is a law at its simplest form. A law is a concept of defining a good or bad behavior from taking place. And when that law is broken, a penalty is incurred. Regulations are set up to promote good behavior or result the likelihood of bad behavior being present. Most regulations that people want removed were created in a time when the writers of the regulations understood the general behavior they wished the populous to move towards. An that this lack of knowledge on both the regulation and the wisdom of its creation are totally non-existent on the minds of those wishing to remove the regulation. In some cases, those wishing to remove regulation stand to gain financially and/or politically; while others favor its removal but are totally ignorant of the creation and/or wisdom of the regulation's creation in the first place.

Creating good regulations is not a science but an art form. There is no measuring stick to predict how well any one regulation will handle any and all situations that might arise. Nor those that arise that the writers could never have known. When a regulation is a bad one the question might be best asked: "Remove the regulation or enhance it given what we know now of things"? Either way, it requires a new law to come into effect. Yes, in order to remove a regulation one must past a law that states the previous law is no longer in effect(i.e. 18th and 21st amendments).

In the case of those in this area of effect, perhaps some good regulations should come into being to prevent and/or mitigate a future problem from taking place. Might be wise for other states to review their regulations to keep something like what happened in West Virginia from taking place in their backyard.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/16/2014 8:22:40 AM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		What regulations in question are unnecessary? Honestly, because the regulations in your country keep getting cut and cut and cut, and there's going to be a point, or you may have already passed it, where they start cutting the necessary regulations and begin causing some real harm as a result. This event being a good example.

But the question in my mind is not how are the regulations inconveniencing industry, it's how is industry responding to these inconveniences and are they responding to them in a professional manner? Because a lot of these regulations have been around for a while, and in the past they were deemed necessary. Why the sudden change of heart?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/16/2014 11:07:50 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The devil is in the details, Tkman. It's not that EPA regulations are all unnecessary, but it's that there are plenty that aren't necessary. No one on this board, iirc, supports having no regulations at all.

Markets won't function efficiently when there are no regulations. But, when there are too many regulations, it will also reduce market efficiency. That's where it hurts the average American.


What if we reduced the number of regulations, but increased the penalty in the event of any spills or other types of environmental disasters? That is, they can run their business however they want according to the standards and practices established by their industry, but if they screw up even the slightest, the CEO and possibly the top executives of the company have to do jail time, possibly even life imprisonment if it's a major screw up (such as when people are forced to evacuate their homes or close their businesses).

I agree that over-regulation is bad, and if the regulations aren't accomplishing their intended purpose, then maybe it's time to take a different approach. After all, the worst thing that will happen to a company that breaks a regulation is they might get fined or face a lawsuit. For them, that's the cost of doing business. Just like the logic used by the Firestone executives a number of years ago when they sold tires they knew were faulty, but concluded that the cost of the lawsuits would be cheaper than the cost of a recall.

If they faced the possibility of jail time, they might rethink their strategy a bit.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/16/2014 11:45:23 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
What regulations in question are unnecessary? Honestly, because the regulations in your country keep getting cut and cut and cut, and there's going to be a point, or you may have already passed it, where they start cutting the necessary regulations and begin causing some real harm as a result. This event being a good example.
But the question in my mind is not how are the regulations inconveniencing industry, it's how is industry responding to these inconveniences and are they responding to them in a professional manner? Because a lot of these regulations have been around for a while, and in the past they were deemed necessary. Why the sudden change of heart?


Just because something was necessary before doesn't mean it's necessary now. Times certainly do change, and regulations should change along with it. Regulations that help one group in an industry at the expense of another group in the industry (especially when it's helping the "too big to fail" get bigger or stay dominant at the expense of the "little guy") aren't helpful.

The scales of Justice should be blind, so all laws should impact it's sphere evenly.

Affirmative Action laws do not do that. Were they necessary? Sadly, yes, they were. Are they still? I'm sure they are in pockets, but not like it used to be. If those laws were stricken from the books would we return to the activities that made them necessary? I highly doubt it.

According to Ludwig von Mises in his book, Human Action, any regulation should be looked at from the perspective of the consumer. If a regulation is going to raise prices, reduce quality, or reduce supply beyond what would be determined by the unhampered market, it's likely not a good regulation.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The EPA hurts business and the average American - 1/16/2014 11:59:45 AM   
vincentML


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To hell with every greedhead operator who flocked here throughout history because you wanted what we had, but wanted us to go underground and get it for you. To hell with you for offering above-average wages in a place filled with workers who'd never had a decent shot at employment or education, and then treating the people you found here like just another material resource -- suitable for exploiting and using up, and discarding when they'd outlived their usefulness. To hell with you for rigging the game so that those wages were paid in currency that was worthless everywhere but at the company store, so that all you did was let the workers hold it for a while, before they went into debt they couldn't get out of.

To hell with you all for continuing, as coal became chemical, to exploit the lax, poorly-enforced safety regulations here, so that you could do your business in the cheapest manner possible by shortcutting the health and quality of life not only of your workers, but of everybody who lives here. To hell with every operator who ever referred to West Virginians as "our neighbors."

Here's more

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 38
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