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From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 8:47:20 AM   
Tkman117


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Joined: 5/21/2012
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Regardless of your opinions on climate change, the economy or your political affiliation, I'm fairly certain it's clear for everyone we are traveling on an unsustainable path. Our world largely runs on fossil fuels, and while we aren't running out any time soon, prices continue to sky rocket and, yes, there is a scary outcome looming on the horizon where we will run out and something is going to break as a result.

The only way I personally see a way of moving away from an unsustainable path is with the collaboration of scientists, engineers, economists, political scientists and various industries coming together to develop new technologies, new jobs, and new sectors in the economy to replace outdated ones. Is it a naive idea? Sure, I completely agree, people aren't going to simply get together and work to try to make the world are more sustainable place without incentive. My ideas were more along the line of tax breaks for those involved, although when politicians world wide are being given donations by the oil and gas industry, it's unlikely any law makers would take on such a radical idea.

The world and people need money to work and survive, and while the idea is juvenile and weak at the moment, I thought I'd pose the question to you guys to see what you would say. What can be done to move us out of the current unsustainable path and into one where we aren't dependent on dwindling resources in such a way that could also grow economies and keep people employed?
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 11:24:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Regardless of your opinions on climate change, the economy or your political affiliation, I'm fairly certain it's clear for everyone we are traveling on an unsustainable path. Our world largely runs on fossil fuels, and while we aren't running out any time soon, prices continue to sky rocket and, yes, there is a scary outcome looming on the horizon where we will run out and something is going to break as a result.
The only way I personally see a way of moving away from an unsustainable path is with the collaboration of scientists, engineers, economists, political scientists and various industries coming together to develop new technologies, new jobs, and new sectors in the economy to replace outdated ones. Is it a naive idea? Sure, I completely agree, people aren't going to simply get together and work to try to make the world are more sustainable place without incentive. My ideas were more along the line of tax breaks for those involved, although when politicians world wide are being given donations by the oil and gas industry, it's unlikely any law makers would take on such a radical idea.
The world and people need money to work and survive, and while the idea is juvenile and weak at the moment, I thought I'd pose the question to you guys to see what you would say. What can be done to move us out of the current unsustainable path and into one where we aren't dependent on dwindling resources in such a way that could also grow economies and keep people employed?


Shouldn't the Market decide where scarce resources are invested? That's pretty much what the Market does. Government intervention to artificially inflate or deflate prices skews this resource allocation.

When I was in college (early 90's), I read about solar and wind power generation. There wasn't anywhere near as much info as there is now (the internet has made finding/sharing information sooo much easier), yet, there were people out there looking into it.

I'm definitely not a supporter of AGW, but, yet, I've been interested in generating my own power and reducing my utility costs for over a decade now. Why? To reduce the amount of money I pay for utilities and to increase the amount of money I have for other purposes.

I have considered getting a hybrid vehicle, and I likely will if I can find one at the right price when I'm ready to purchase a vehicle. I'm going to get a geothermal system installed to take care of the majority of my HVAC needs. I'm looking into harnessing the sun to heat a liquid (and, possibly generate power for a pump) to power a hydronic snow melting scheme for my driveway. Once I get back on my feet financially (been a tough couple years), I'm probably going to geek out in my leisure experimenting with vertical axis wind turbines.

Why do all that? Because I want to reduce my utility costs so I have more money for other purposes, and so that I can lower my costs for when I eventually retire. Increase my self-sufficiency.

You don't have to be a supporter of AGW to want to switch to more sustainable models.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 11:43:45 AM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
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quote:


You don't have to be a supporter of AGW to want to switch to more sustainable models.


Exactly my point. But the market is also not a living entity, people are very short sighted, they only look at what will occur within the next few months or years, let alone later on in their lives or after they're dead. We are increasingly dependant on gas and oil, and the market has shown barely any sign of moving towards a direction where resources are consumed much more responsibly. We simply look for more resources to consume when the current ones run out, but when they all run out it will be catastrophic. Change doesn't happen over night, it takes small changes and getting a hybrid like you said is a great idea to contribute to those small changes, and it's also a type of car I'd like to get when I finally get out of university or a few years later.

But while the problem is being addressed in incremental steps in various places, there is the potential for something more drastic. Bringing together economists, researcher, engineers from across a broad range of places could ideally produce something very powerful. New areas of the economy, new policies, new technologies, all which could be brought before government officials across the world with the incentive that these new methods would benefit everyone, including the law makers. The key is this "what do policy makers get out of it?" The oil industry has many politicians and economists in their pocket, so creating enough of an allure to go against the industry is what's really the hard part, not necessarily getting the collaboration between scientists.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 11:48:34 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Shouldn't the Market decide where scarce resources are invested? That's pretty much what the Market does. Government intervention to artificially inflate or deflate prices skews this resource allocation.

I think you give too much credit to efficiencies of The Market. As I understand it Adam Smith did not rule out government involvement. Prices are artificially inflated by speculation and deflated by corruption, it seems.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 12:04:58 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
quote:

You don't have to be a supporter of AGW to want to switch to more sustainable models.

Exactly my point. But the market is also not a living entity, people are very short sighted, they only look at what will occur within the next few months or years, let alone later on in their lives or after they're dead. We are increasingly dependant on gas and oil, and the market has shown barely any sign of moving towards a direction where resources are consumed much more responsibly. We simply look for more resources to consume when the current ones run out, but when they all run out it will be catastrophic. Change doesn't happen over night, it takes small changes and getting a hybrid like you said is a great idea to contribute to those small changes, and it's also a type of car I'd like to get when I finally get out of university or a few years later.
But while the problem is being addressed in incremental steps in various places, there is the potential for something more drastic. Bringing together economists, researcher, engineers from across a broad range of places could ideally produce something very powerful. New areas of the economy, new policies, new technologies, all which could be brought before government officials across the world with the incentive that these new methods would benefit everyone, including the law makers. The key is this "what do policy makers get out of it?" The oil industry has many politicians and economists in their pocket, so creating enough of an allure to go against the industry is what's really the hard part, not necessarily getting the collaboration between scientists.


The danger of allowing government to dictate the direction of the Market, or research, is that you increase the danger of government being corrupted. That's when you get business taking insulating actions, buying government. And, imo, the proper response towards alternative energy business isn't to provide subsidies and tax benefits (to "level the playing field") to alternative energy companies, it's removing subsidies and tax benefits from all energy businesses.

The Market will figure the shit out. If you base all your decisions on electricity for power, you're at the mercy of electricity power generators. If you stick with the primarily coal-fired generators, you'll find that, as resources become more scarce, your electricity costs will increase. The more you base your decisions on dwindling resources, the worse it's going to become for you.

But, isn't that choice up to the consumer? You make decisions based on your own interests. They make decisions based on their own interests. If you make sounder choices, you'll reap that benefit.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 12:16:56 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Shouldn't the Market decide where scarce resources are invested? That's pretty much what the Market does. Government intervention to artificially inflate or deflate prices skews this resource allocation.

I think you give too much credit to efficiencies of The Market. As I understand it Adam Smith did not rule out government involvement. Prices are artificially inflated by speculation and deflated by corruption, it seems.


And, government intervention to prevent and root out corruption isn't a bad thing. It's about keeping the Market "unhampered," as von Mises puts it.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 12:21:06 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
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Fair points, unfortunately most people don't get to decide where they get their electricity. Where I live, we're lucky enough to have Niagara falls powering a lot of southern Ontario. Also, when the oil companies have politicians in their pockets, what chance is there of removing said subsidies? When the system is so manipulated, it makes the market irrelevant as a monopoly is maintained through governmental subsidies. It deters alternative energy and any potential change. This really goes back to removing money from politics, as it clearly causes too much corruption on both sides of the political playing field.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 12:48:51 PM   
servantforuse


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Joined: 3/8/2006
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I don't think that we are on an unsustainable path. Remember Jimmy Carter in the early 80's sitting by a fireplace with a dumb looking sweater on ? We were running out of oil then, or were we. New sources of oil are being discovered all the time. New technologies are coming around slowly, but they are coming. Let the market decide.

(in reply to Tkman117)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 12:53:55 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Fair points, unfortunately most people don't get to decide where they get their electricity. Where I live, we're lucky enough to have Niagara falls powering a lot of southern Ontario. Also, when the oil companies have politicians in their pockets, what chance is there of removing said subsidies? When the system is so manipulated, it makes the market irrelevant as a monopoly is maintained through governmental subsidies. It deters alternative energy and any potential change. This really goes back to removing money from politics, as it clearly causes too much corruption on both sides of the political playing field.


Something I've been talking about for a while now. We completely agree on it.

The People need to do their homework on their representatives. We need to elect better people. We need to elect more people who won't kneel down to Big Money. It won't be overnight, but it can happen, if We start paying attention, and holding our elected representatives accountable.

http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2008/10/about.html
    quote:

    Our Mission

    Build a small army to
    take over the world and...
    leave everyone alone.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 1:02:36 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
That's the problem. A majority of voters have no clue as to why they vote for a particular person, and have no clue what that person stands for. That, sadly will never change.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 1:34:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I don't think that we are on an unsustainable path. Remember Jimmy Carter in the early 80's sitting by a fireplace with a dumb looking sweater on ? We were running out of oil then, or were we. New sources of oil are being discovered all the time. New technologies are coming around slowly, but they are coming. Let the market decide.

Yes, we were running out of oil then and we are running out now. That you don't understand that basic fact is slightly shocking.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 1:55:54 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I don't think that we are on an unsustainable path. Remember Jimmy Carter in the early 80's sitting by a fireplace with a dumb looking sweater on ? We were running out of oil then, or were we. New sources of oil are being discovered all the time. New technologies are coming around slowly, but they are coming. Let the market decide.

Yes, we were running out of oil then and we are running out now. That you don't understand that basic fact is slightly shocking.


How much time do we have left, Ken? I know you don't know, because no one knows yet. The only thing we do know, is that current known reserves are a particular extraction cost at current technologies are running out.

On a grand scale, we are running out (we are consuming it, and I'm very, very, willing to bet it's not in unlimited supply), but how much do we have, and how long will that last?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 1:56:07 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Regardless of your opinions on climate change, the economy or your political affiliation, I'm fairly certain it's clear for everyone we are traveling on an unsustainable path.


Nope. Its not clear to me that we're on an unsustainable path (at least regarding energy) at all.
Right now, if we wanted to power everything in the US off of coal - we could do so for 70 years. If we wanted to power everything off natural gas we could do so for 70 years.

If we wanted to power everything off of klathyrates we could do so for 200 years. So, no I don't see an unsustainable path.

Now, I would rather see fewer people on the planet. I'd like to see more habitat reserved for animals. I'd like the oceans and the lands to have the opportunity to recover.

But a lot of progress has been made in that regard as well, if we can only keep it. Much of the world is in negative population growth. Perhaps the biggest best hearts/minds bit that we could do right now would be to aid India and then the muslim world.

But generally speaking, I think things look a lot better than they did 15 years ago.

(in reply to Tkman117)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 2:33:05 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Once I get back on my feet financially (been a tough couple years), I'm probably going to geek out in my leisure experimenting with vertical axis wind turbines.

Why do all that? Because I want to reduce my utility costs so I have more money for other purposes, and so that I can lower my costs for when I eventually retire. Increase my self-sufficiency.


I have been looking at some vids and plans on vertical axis wind turbines and if you build your own there are not that expensive (at least compared to buying retail).. they don't seem hard to build at all (from what I have seen so far)..

As far as cutting back or going off grid goes, now some utility corps are lobbying city hall to charge fees to properties that have solar systems! One has already been approved to do that (somewhere in CA I think).. I really find that appalling.. and now that one has succeeded, the other utility corps will follow (they have nothing to lose to try and keep trying).. so they are gonna try to get ya no matter what you do..

So when more and more people start finding alternatives, those corps that see money (which they see as their money even if its your money ) flying out the window, they are gonna do things to counteract that..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 2:44:21 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Regardless of


Its easier to do when you are building a totally new city.. such as Masdar City, which was originally planned as a sustainable zero-carbon car-free city.. but as with most stuff designed by man/men, things get fcked up.. so now its just planning on being low carbon..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masdar_City

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 2:53:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I don't think that we are on an unsustainable path. Remember Jimmy Carter in the early 80's sitting by a fireplace with a dumb looking sweater on ? We were running out of oil then, or were we. New sources of oil are being discovered all the time. New technologies are coming around slowly, but they are coming. Let the market decide.

Yes, we were running out of oil then and we are running out now. That you don't understand that basic fact is slightly shocking.


How much time do we have left, Ken? I know you don't know, because no one knows yet. The only thing we do know, is that current known reserves are a particular extraction cost at current technologies are running out.

On a grand scale, we are running out (we are consuming it, and I'm very, very, willing to bet it's not in unlimited supply), but how much do we have, and how long will that last?



We know we have a lot less than we would have if Carter's policies had been continued.
We know we'd be less dependent on foreign oil (we could very well be completely energy independent).
We know we'd be the world leader in developing alternative energy sources rather than standing on the sidelines as Europe and China develop the energy industries of the future.

If that is not sufficient to convince anyone of the need to stop treating fossil carbon as an energy source as fast as possible without considering the effect on the planet of burning it all I really don't know what would.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 2:57:59 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Once I get back on my feet financially (been a tough couple years), I'm probably going to geek out in my leisure experimenting with vertical axis wind turbines.
Why do all that? Because I want to reduce my utility costs so I have more money for other purposes, and so that I can lower my costs for when I eventually retire. Increase my self-sufficiency.

I have been looking at some vids and plans on vertical axis wind turbines and if you build your own there are not that expensive (at least compared to buying retail).. they don't seem hard to build at all (from what I have seen so far)..
As far as cutting back or going off grid goes, now some utility corps are lobbying city hall to charge fees to properties that have solar systems! One has already been approved to do that (somewhere in CA I think).. I really find that appalling.. and now that one has succeeded, the other utility corps will follow (they have nothing to lose to try and keep trying).. so they are gonna try to get ya no matter what you do..
So when more and more people start finding alternatives, those corps that see money (which they see as their money even if its your money ) flying out the window, they are gonna do things to counteract that..


What was the basis for the fees? There have been ideas floated to levy a fee on hybrids and bicycles because they are using the roads and not contributing a "fair share" via the gasoline taxes for upkeep (I would be surprised if gas taxes are all actually going to road upkeep to begin with, but that's another discussion for another time).

It goes back to that old saw that if you want to increase a behavior, subsidize it, and if you want to decrease a behavior, tax it. The problem is, if you're relying on revenues from those taxes for "permanent" spending, when behaviors decrease, you're left without funding for spending that is relatively permanent.

The Feds ride into the States with cash for the coffers when the recession hit, propping up State government. All that did was maintain the States' abilities to continue to spend beyond their revenues. While that's not always a bad thing, the problem you run into is that removes incentives to reduce spending, and States get even more reliant on the wallet of the Federal Government. Not a great idea, imo.






_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 3:03:42 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The danger of allowing government to dictate the direction of the Market, or research, is that you increase the danger of government being corrupted.

Because, of course, that has never happened in an unregulated Market.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 3:05:00 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
I don't think that we are on an unsustainable path. Remember Jimmy Carter in the early 80's sitting by a fireplace with a dumb looking sweater on ? We were running out of oil then, or were we. New sources of oil are being discovered all the time. New technologies are coming around slowly, but they are coming. Let the market decide.

Yes, we were running out of oil then and we are running out now. That you don't understand that basic fact is slightly shocking.

How much time do we have left, Ken? I know you don't know, because no one knows yet. The only thing we do know, is that current known reserves are a particular extraction cost at current technologies are running out.
On a grand scale, we are running out (we are consuming it, and I'm very, very, willing to bet it's not in unlimited supply), but how much do we have, and how long will that last?

We know we have a lot less than we would have if Carter's policies had been continued.
We know we'd be less dependent on foreign oil (we could very well be completely energy independent).
We know we'd be the world leader in developing alternative energy sources rather than standing on the sidelines as Europe and China develop the energy industries of the future.
If that is not sufficient to convince anyone of the need to stop treating fossil carbon as an energy source as fast as possible without considering the effect on the planet of burning it all I really don't know what would.


As fast as possible? Nah. That's just a knee jerk reaction. I'm in favor of research into alternative and next gen. energy. But, you still have to use what works, too. Rely on cheap (relatively) energy while researching more expensive technology, in order to reduce those costs. It's dumb to raise costs on the cheap energy just so money will naturally flow to the new tech. That just increases costs across the board and reduces incentives for the new tech to keep researching into cost effectiveness.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: From Unsustainable to sustainable - 1/16/2014 4:47:14 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
We don't know any of that. 30 + years later and the world is using more oil now that ever. There wasn't a shortage then, and there isn't one now.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 20
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